Build Idea: Whirlwind Attacker

[Easy_Lee]

So I had an interesting build Idea and wanted to see if I can get the playground's assistance in fleshing this one out.

For this who don't know, Hunter Rangers can get an ability called whirlwind attack. As opposed to volley, whirlwind seems to have a smaller range of only 5' from the ranger. However, due to the movement rules, one can technically move between these attacks to potentially strike a large number of foes. For this post, I will assume that the DM supports this interpretation.

So, what would be the best character we can build with the goal of maximizing whirlwind damage? Some thoights:

Character should take Hoard Breaker over colossus slayer since an extra attack deals more damage.
Character should be strength-focused and use a greatsword for maximum striking potential. A multiclass with barbarian, fighter, or paladin will be needed to obtain GWF style. Rapier and shield with dueling could be used if Dex or single class are needed.
The mobile feat is a must to keep opposing opportunity attacks to a minimum, so variant human may be preferred
Elemental Weapon could greatly enhance the power of this build, as could any other source of bonus damage or damage dice on a hit. However, Elemental Weapon would require a significant investment in paladin or valor bard.

Thoughts?

[CrusaderJoe]

So I had an interesting build Idea and wanted to see if I can get the playground's assistance in fleshing this one out.

For this who don't know, Hunter Rangers can get an ability called whirlwind attack. As opposed to volley, whirlwind seems to have a smaller range of only 5' from the ranger. However, due to the movement rules, one can technically move between these attacks to potentially strike a large number of foes. For this post, I will assume that the DM supports this interpretation.

So, what would be the best character we can build with the goal of maximizing whirlwind damage? Some thoights:

Character should take Hoard Breaker over colossus slayer since an extra attack deals more damage.
Character should be strength-focused and use a greatsword for maximum striking potential. A multiclass with barbarian, fighter, or paladin will be needed to obtain GWF style. Rapier and shield with dueling could be used if Dex or single class are needed.
The mobile feat is a must to keep opposing opportunity attacks to a minimum, so variant human may be preferred
Elemental Weapon could greatly enhance the power of this build, as could any other source of bonus damage or damage dice on a hit. However, Elemental Weapon would require a significant investment in paladin or valor bard.

Thoughts?

Seems like Ranger/Monk would be the way to go.

Ranger 11/Monk 9 gives you mobility, whirlwind, and flurry of blows if the DM rules whirlwind counts ad the attack action for flurry.

Shadow Monk's Shadow Step makes whirlwind fun. Do shadow jump then start whirlwind.

Elemental Monk makes whirlwind + water whip an option.

Start with Wood Elf (35 ') + 15' Monk + 10' mobile = 60' movement.

Edit: this was just a spitball idea, going to take a look at the book and my character generator to see more into it.

Even without FoB you can still use a BA to make a martial arts attack with your mod against a creature.

Edit 2: just looked at the wording for Stunning Strike...

"When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack" is what is required to stun the target. Don't take mobile and just boost Wis on the Wild Elf Ranger Monk, you can get both Dex and Wis to 20.... Whirlwind attack and try to stun 9 creatures... DC 19 Con Save. I took colossus slayer only beca because horde breaker was redundant.

This has serious RP goodness, and you can do this 1/short or long rest.

[Balor777]

Ask your DM for Polearm master feat to work making the range of whirlwind attack 10ft.
With greatsword id definately pair it with -5+10 and barbarrian 3 for damage resistance and recless attack.
More enemies hit, more times the rage damage too.I believe you NEED rage damage resistance to stay
alive while charging into crowd.At rngr11/barb3 you will ROCK.
I would not let the semiwirlwind->move->semiwhirlwing attack tho.
As i understand the intented usage was to activate the whirlwind attack as a special attack and at that time
you hit everyone at range.The way you propose it is like ill hit a LOT of people no mater what and its too good imo.
Its like the old gret cleave but without the requirement for the enemy to be dead.
Seprarate attack rolls for each target is different from separate attacks.
It was ruled like this to avoid the I MISS EVERYONE round of OUCH or "i hit you all" since many of the times grouped enemies have the same AC.

[CrusaderJoe]

Ask your DM for Polearm master feat to work making the range of whirlwind attack 10ft.
With greatsword id definately pair it with -5+10 and barbarrian 3 for damage resistance and recless attack.
More enemies hit, more times the rage damage too.I believe you NEED rage damage resistance to stay
alive while charging into crowd.At rngr11/barb3 you will ROCK.
I would not let the semiwirlwind->move->semiwhirlwing attack tho.
As i understand the intented usage was to activate the whirlwind attack as a special attack and at that time
you hit everyone at range.The way you propose it is like ill hit a LOT of people no mater what and its too good imo.
Its like the old gret cleave but without the requirement for the enemy to be dead.
Seprarate attack rolls for each target is different from separate attacks.
It was ruled like this to avoid the I MISS EVERYONE round of OUCH or "i hit you all" since many of the times grouped enemies have the same AC.

There is no RAW or RAI that doesn't support whirlwind being moveable... You wouldn't be much of a whirlwind if you were confined to one space.

Rule of Cool wins when RAW/RAI is not clear. :smallbiggrin: (actually RoC wins sometimes when RAW/RAI is clear).

[noce]

Rogue 3 assassin could fit too.

Cunning action lets you disengage as a bonus action to avoid damage from OAs, or alternatively dash to be able to hit even the farthest foe.
Try to have surprise round, use whirlwind, crit the hell out of them.

I would pair it with half orc and a great axe, personally.

[Balor777]

There is no RAW or RAI that doesn't support whirlwind being moveable... You wouldn't be much of a whirlwind if you were confined to one space.

Rule of Cool wins when RAW/RAI is not clear. :smallbiggrin: (actually RoC wins sometimes when RAW/RAI is clear).

Yeah i know but its called "whirwind attack" not attack move attack move attack 2 guys move attack the last one ^_^
If its supposed to work like this why not:
Attack the left guy
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right, attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy?

I used 30ft of movement and did 7 attacks! :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[CrusaderJoe]

Yeah i know but its called "whirwind attack" not attack move attack move attack 2 guys move attack the last one ^_^
If its supposed to work like this why not:
Attack the left guy
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right, attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy?

I used 30ft of movement and did 5 attacks!

Flufd: Whirlwinds don't stay still, they typically move great distances.

Rules: The rules for attacking and moving aren't changed by the ability one bit. I don't see where it says you can't move or you must stay stationary.

Martial abilities need a huge boost post 10th level to make them worth taking. This works.

[Easy_Lee]

As discussed above, the reason I assume it's a legitimate option is because Whirlwind attack otherwise is flatly inferior to the longer range, wider area volley.

Regarding using it with special attacks like snaring strike, the vast majority of those only apply to your next strike, so it doesn't work like I think it probably should.

The monk option is interesting since both classes are DEX/WIS and monk unarmed strike benefits from dueling. ASIs would be scarce, though. Fighter is tempting for that reason alone. Just go 8 levels of champion for three ASIs and get increased crit chance on the attacks.

[Joe the Rat]

I want to break this reading of whirlwind down for a second.

Basic set-up, you effectively affect targets like a line-like spell with a 15' wide area of effect.. up to 15'*45' including the five feet behind you, and the five feet ahead of you after a full move... except that if anyone is in your line, you lose range as they are difficult terrain to step through when you drop them. Or I'm getting fuzzy on this. More later.

But let's look at theoretical maximums, and assume they all like up in a nice corridor for you. Using the 5' square approach, that gives you 20 targetable squares, with an additional 2 squares per additional 5' of movement (wood elf, monk, longstrider, etc). If there's no penalty for walking on dead people, then add another 6 squares (I don't think we want to talk about sharing a square to start with) and additional movement adds 3 per 5' of movement. Upside, you also change position. Downside, how many opportunity attacks? (Which can be mitigated via feats and abilities.)

Stationary Whirlwind with reach (As Balor777 suggested) will net you 20-24 squares (depending on whether you count the corners or not), requires a reach weapon (or reach ability... 44 squares for 15' reach?), with no additions for higher movement (but you still have movement+bonus attack (hi Polearm Master!) is still on the table), and no opportunity attacks provoked from the action itself.

vs. 12 or 16 squares for volley (within 10' of a point, right?), which is done from the safety of not right next to your targets, but burns through ammunition like a beast.

Actual play, you probably won't get those ideal configurations, but the Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind variant (I was looking at something similar for a monk technique) will have the flexibility to be able to redirect from cluster to cluster.

Its... possibly over the top, but not completely off the wall. Combining Thrashing Dragon with Reach, though? *shudder*


Now using this approach, extra attacks are of limited value, so you want to increase your per-hit damage. Great Weapon Master has a lot of potential there, particularly against easy-to-hit targets. Is Smite good for the whole turn? If yes, there's another dip - and one you may already be considering for the GWF fighting style. If we're already adding monk for speed, any of the elemental fist elemental damage add-ons are good.

Edit: Champion Fighter? more attack rolls means more potential criticals...

[Easy_Lee]

Elemental fist could be interesting if any of the abilities add damage for the full round, rather than just next attack. That could work very well with monk improved unarmored movement speed. Can anyone confirm?

By RAW, Whirlwind attack is unaffected by reach. Regardless of weapon used, the radius is 5'. The text is fairly clear on this, and I suspect that's deliberate.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

An element monk has one ability to modify an attack:

Fangs o f the Fire Snake. When you use the Attack
action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause
tendrils o f flame to stretch out from your fists and feet.
Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by
10 feet for that action, as well as the rest o f the turn.
A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of
bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when
the attack hits, it also deals an extra 1d 10 fire damage.

[Easy_Lee]

Got it. Sounds like it would be heavily dependent on ki, and tough to use with only a few levels of monk. Also, may not be allowed since it specifically mentions the "attack" action.

[xyianth]

This struck me as an interesting challenge, so I came up with a few options that hopefully fit the bill. All of these versions should be viable from 1-20.

The strength based version: (this is probably the best overall version, has good speed and power)

human(variant) fighter 2/ranger 12/rogue 2/barbarian 4
27pt: 15(16) str, 14 dex, 13(14) con, 9 int, 13 wis, 8 cha
ASIs: polearm master(1), +2 str(6), great weapon master(10), +2 str(14), sentinel(20)
equipment: glaive or halberd, half-plate armor
fighting styles: great weapon fighting(1), defense(4)
ranger archetype: hunter: horde breaker, escape the horde, whirlwind attack
barbarian path: totem: bear
tactics:

Action surge lets you whirlwind attack twice 1/rest
Cunning action lets you dash while whirlwind attacking, doubling your effective move speed
Rage applies bonus damage to every attack 3/day and provides resistance to damage from OAs
Reckless attack can be used to help land attacks even with a -5 to attack from great weapon master
Keep longstrider up as much as possible
Results in AC 18, 1d8+17 damage/hit, attacks are +6 with advantage, effective move speed is 80' per round

The dexterity based version: (ironically the least mobile but most damaging)

wood elf fighter 2/ranger 12/bard 6
27pt: 10 str, 14(16) dex, 14 con, 10 int, 12(13) wis, 13 cha
ASIs: +2 dex(6), +2 dex(10), mobile(14), warcaster(18)
equipment: rapier, studded leather armor, shield
fighting styles: dueling(1), defense(4)
ranger archetype: hunter: horde breaker, escape the horde, whirlwind attack
bard college: lore: magical secrets(elemental weapon, any)
tactics:

Action surge lets you whirlwind attack twice 1/rest
Keep longstrider up as much as possible
When you hit 20th, use 3rd+ level slots on elemental weapon (always use highest available slot on elemental weapon)
Results in AC 20, 1d8+7+3d4 damage/hit, attacks are +14, effective move speed is 45' per round

The wisdom based version: (the most mobile but least damaging)

wood elf cleric 1/monk 1/fighter 2/ranger 12/rogue 2/monk +1/fighter +1
27pt: 10 str, 14(16) dex, 14 con, 10 int, 15(16) wis, 8 cha
ASIs: +2 wis(8), +2 wis(12), mobile(16)
equipment: quarterstaff
fighting styles: great weapon fighting(3), dueling(6)
ranger archetype: hunter: horde breaker, escape the horde, whirlwind attack
cleric domain: nature: shillelagh
fighter archetype: battlemaster: any maneuvers you want
tactics:

Action surge lets you whirlwind attack twice 1/rest
Cunning action lets you dash while whirlwind attacking, doubling your effective move speed
Shillelagh lets you use your wisdom as your attack stat
Unarmored defense lets you use your wisdom for your AC
Martial arts lets you make an unarmed attack as a bonus action for 1d4+5
You can choose to wield the quarterstaff 1-handed or 2-handed
Keep longstrider up as much as possible

Results in AC 18, 1d8+7 damage/hit, attacks are +11, effective move speed is 110' per round

I figured the best way to take advantage of the interpretation that you can move between attacks made while whirlwind attacking was to boost move speed so you can hit everyone.

Edit: forgot elemental weapon was concentration based, lowered AC and speed to account for losing haste on dexterity version.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Yeah i know but its called "whirwind attack" not attack move attack move attack 2 guys move attack the last one ^_^
If its supposed to work like this why not:
Attack the left guy
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy,
move 5ft to the right, attack the right guy,
move 5fth to the left attack the left guy?

I used 30ft of movement and did 7 attacks! :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

I'd say you can't do that because the ability states "A" melee attack against any number of creatures. I'd say this limits you to 1 attack per creature, but any number of creatures can be attacked within your movement.

[CrusaderJoe]

I'd say you can't do that because the ability states "A" melee attack against any number of creatures. I'd say this limits you to 1 attack per creature, but any number of creatures can be attacked within your movement.

That literally doesn't stop the ability from being able to allow the PC to figuratively move between targeting each creature of their attack.

[Fwiffo86]

That literally doesn't stop the ability from being able to allow the PC to figuratively move between targeting each creature of their attack.

I can see this. As long as the PC moves within his allotted movement and makes no more than one single attack roll. Basically, roll once, then calculate targets within 5 feet of movement path. One roll to hit everyone speeds the process up significantly. Does run the risk of missing everyone, but that's how it happens sometimes.

[Easy_Lee]

I can see this. As long as the PC moves within his allotted movement and makes no more than one single attack roll. Basically, roll once, then calculate targets within 5 feet of movement path. One roll to hit everyone speeds the process up significantly. Does run the risk of missing everyone, but that's how it happens sometimes.

By your interpretation, the PC moves somewhere, and basically does one single spin as his action. In other words, the maximum number of targets hit would be those within a 5' radius of a specific point. Correct?

That interpretation makes Whirlwind attack inferior to volley in every way. Volley has much greater range and wider aoe if one cannot move between attacks during Whirlwind. Since swift quiver already makes bows superior to melee for Rangers, I find that interpretation to be unacceptable. It's not fair. Whirlwind doesn't even work with reach; it specifically says within 5' of the ranger.

This is why I said in the OP that I would assume the DM went with the RAW interpretation, which allows movement between attacks as normal. The RAW and RAI have been discussed to hell and back in another thread.

In addition, your interpretation of only allowing one attack roll is both inferior (multiple rolls are more consistent than one) and goes against RAW. Furthermore, the fact that Whirlwind makes multiple attack rolls is the reason why movement during the action is possible.

Movement during Volley is also possible, but one cannot increase its aoe through movement since it targets creatures within 10' of a point, rather than within 10' of the ranger. Thus, both Volley and Whirlwind attack have advantages and disadvantages relative to the other by the RAW interpretation.

[Fwiffo86]

By your interpretation, the PC moves somewhere, and basically does one single spin as his action. In other words, the maximum number of targets hit would be those within a 5' radius of a specific point. Correct?


Incorrect. You have completely misunderstood what I said. I will add clarification...

He makes one single attack roll, chooses his movement path, and applies that attack roll to every target within 5' of his chosen path. So basically, an attack on every target within five feet of his 6 chosen squares for movement.

[Easy_Lee]

Incorrect. You have completely misunderstood what I said. I will add clarification...

He makes one single attack roll, chooses his movement path, and applies that attack roll to every target within 5' of his chosen path. So basically, an attack on every target within five feet of his 6 chosen squares for movement.

Gotcha, though by RAW that would require an update to allow attacking more than one square of creatures. It's the movement between attack rolls rule that allows movement in the first place.

[Fwiffo86]

Gotcha, though by RAW that would require an update to allow attacking more than one square of creatures. It's the movement between attack rolls rule that allows movement in the first place.

I think its still in the spirit if your idea, but trimmed down for speed of combat. If you want to roll a single attack roll an attack roll against each target within 5', then move, roll again, etc, I see that as no different that what I propose. My method just happens to be less game time absorbing.

Alternatively, I suppose if you have extra attacks, you can whirlwind everyone near you, move, use your next attack to whirlwind there as well. But that is probably what you are talking about in the first place.

[xyianth]

The ability clearly states it is an action to use (not an attack, hence not compatible with extra attack) and that you make a separate attack roll for each target. The rules for movement in combat state that you can move between attacks. Since the ability isn't an attack, but does allow you to make attacks, it's ambiguous whether you can move between targets. I'm on Easy_Lee's side for this as I think allowing movement between the attacks is both cooler and makes it compare better against the volley ability. Regardless, this thread stipulated that the assumption is you can move between attacks.

[Easy_Lee]

One part I do think is more ambiguous is whether bonus attacks, and what kind of bonus attack, can be used during the Whirlwind attack. I would assume that making an attack qualifies one for most bonus action attacks, whether the attack was made via Whirlwind or not. Assuming so, I believe that's one more point in volley's favor, actually.

That aside, it may be the case that the simplest application of the build is to use a straight eagle barbarian, raging for bonus damage, increasing speed, and using the bonus attack combined with mobile to prevent retribution from any target you miss as you go by.