What was the old charmed condition?

[kaoskonfety]

Several posters have outlined "Warlock - Great Old One" was written prior to a power decrease on the Charmed condition, which explained the astonishing fluff roleplay/poor raw combat power of the Create Thrall level 14 power.

What was the old text for the charmed condition these people are referring to? Or is this some rumour that has spread like wildfire because it seems a reasonable explanation for a level 14 class ability being reduced to a hilarious tool to create a fan club out of your trounced foes?

*** Please note - I'm fine with the power as it is, but am deeply curious about how this was "supposed to work"

[Chronos]

I don't think there is any other known text for Charmed in this edition. However, it was considerably more powerful in previous editions. See, for instance, Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) from 3.5, which let you order the subject to do something it wouldn't ordinarily do with an opposed Cha check. You couldn't give suicidal orders, but you could order someone to attack their teammates. If, in an earlier playtest version, Charm worked like that, or even if one of the developers thought it worked like that, it would account for the Create Thrall ability.

[mephnick]

I wish they had made it it's own mechanic instead of just going with charmed. It really should be closer to dominate than charm person, considering the restrictions on it.

[Tenmujiin]

I think that during the playtest, charmed was much stronger than it is now. I only looked at the basic structure of things during playtests though so I don't know for sure.

[xyianth]

I tend to think that charmed used to work like the Vampire's charm ability in the MM. I have no evidence of this, but the primary reason I believe this is that the definition of thrall is nothing like what the current charmed condition grants. If charmed did work this way, both the archfey and the great old one patron abilities get much better, and compare more favorably to the fiend patron. Under this interpretation, the charm person spell would need to be a higher level, which is probably why it was changed. (assuming it was ever different and WotC didn't just decide that warlock patron features should be incredibly weak)

Given some of the invocations made for the warlock class, I doubt we will ever know whether the warlock class was written under a different charmed condition or if WotC just hates warlocks without a designer's say-so. As it is, the warlock class plays pretty well, so it is entirely possible that it was weakened intentionally to avoid being overpowered. I know during the playtests, the basic sentiments of a large number of people was that warlock was really powerful.

In my games, I modified the Create Thrall ability to function like the Vampire's charm ability, without the save and limited to one creature at a time. I left the charmed condition alone, but specified that the archfey's beguiling defenses works against abilities like the Vampire's charm as well as things like charm person. I made lots of other changes to warlocks as well, (mostly to improve the less often picked invocations so that all warlocks didn't take the same ones every time) but so far these changes have worked quite well.

[mephnick]

Do you have a posted list of the changes you made? I have a warlock in the party right now and it would be nice to have some options if he wants them.

[Shining Wrath]

If someone could get a designer tweet regarding this I'd be interested.

[xyianth]

Do you have a posted list of the changes you made? I have a warlock in the party right now and it would be nice to have some options if he wants them.

Not yet, but I can post them here:

Changed invocations:

beast speech: animal friendship, speak with animals, and animal messenger at-will
beguiling influence: gain proficiency + expertise in deception, persuasion, and intimidation
bewitching whispers: removed; add compulsion to warlock class spell list
chains of carceri: removed creature type restrictions
dreadful word: removed; add confusion to warlock class spell list
eldritch sight: cast detect magic and see invisibility(self only) at will
fiendish vigor: cast false life(self only) as a spell of level equal to half your proficiency bonus
lifedrinker: each hit with your pact weapon deals extra necrotic damage equal to your charisma modifier. each time you drop a creature with your pact weapon, the extra damage from this invocation increases by 1. the extra damage from this invocation resets to your charisma modifier after a rest.
minions of chaos: add conjure minor elementals as a spell known + cast conjure elemental 1/long rest without a slot.
mire the mind: renamed temporal manipulation; adds haste and slow as spells known
one with shadows: only breaks on attack, usable as a bonus action
sculptor of flesh: cast polymorph 1/ long rest without a slot.
sign of ill omen: removed; add bestow curse to warlock class spell list
thief of five fates: bane at-will
whispers of the grave: add ability to cast animate dead 1/long rest without a slot
witch’s sight: applies to objects and creatures
New invocations: (credit to Maliface (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18759224&postcount=11) for inspiration)

improved pact magic: requires 7th level; adds 1 pact magic slot
grand grimoire: requires 18th level and pact of the tome; add 5 spells of up to 5th level from any spell list to your spells known.
bladebound: requires 18th level and pact of the blade; each time you reduce a creature to 0 with your pact weapon, you can remove 1 level of exhaustion. if you have no levels of exhaustion, you can regain 1 expended pact magic slot.
soul link: requires 18th level and pact of the chain; familiar within 30’ can maintain concentration on 1 spell or effect for you.
pact magic mastery: requires 18th level; you can spend 2 slots to cast a spell at 6th level, 3 slots to cast a spell of 7th level. this can be your mystic arcanum spells or one of your known spells cast from a higher level slot.
Patron feature changes:

archfey patron:

fey presence lasts until save ends
misty escape is recovered when you drop a foe or after a rest
fiend patron:

replace blindness/deafness with heat metal; add blindness/deafness to warlock class spell list
great old one patron:

awakened mind extends to 60’ and no longer requires line of sight
entropic ward: usable charisma modifier times/rest
Class feature changes:

eldritch master: changed to: you can trade 4 HD to regain 1 pact magic slot as a bonus action.
Clarifications:

Required levels are Warlock level not character level.
Chain pact familiars grant the magic resistance trait.
Blade pact users must use weapons of appropriate size and can not use unique monster weapons. They can modify a magic weapon's form into any allowed form they like however.
That covers all the changes. Feel free to use them (or don't) as you like.

[holygroundj]

They can modify a magic weapon's form into any allowed form they like however.

I wish this was RAW.

[Chronos]

I'm pretty sure it is RAW. They can change their pact weapon's form whenever they create it, they can make an existing magic weapon their pact weapon, and summoning their weapon still counts as creating it.

That said, there seem to be a large number of DMs who rule otherwise.

[xyianth]

Yeah, that's why I explicitly laid it out as a rule clarification in my games. There is a reasonable argument to be made for both interpretations and I wanted my players to know how I was going to rule it. One thing I should note is that I don't allow pact blade warlocks to act as the party's loot transformer. In other words, a warlock can perform the ritual to use a magic dagger, then summon a magic greatsword with the same magic properties as much as they want. What they can't do is then perform the ritual with another weapon and hand the magical greatsword to a party member. As soon as they perform the ritual with another weapon, the previous weapon reverts to its initial state. (in this case, a magical dagger) This is mostly an academic concern in my campaigns however, since I have added special NPCs that can transfer the magical enchantments from one weapon to another for a price. (usually a quest or favor of some kind)

[Tenmujiin]

snip

That looks good except for a few invocations that are WAY too powerful:



beguiling influence: gain proficiency + expertise in deception, persuasion, and intimidation
I would make this proficiency OR expertiese if you are already proficient otherwise your warlock will have 7 skills (more than any other class, rogue has 6) with expertise in 3 (rogue has 2 at this level).


chains of carceri: removed creature type restrictions
This ability is very powerful with the restrictions, without them it breaks the game, IIRC you can just keep casting until your opponent fails the save. This ability is restricted for the same reason beastmaster companions are.


grand grimoire: requires 18th level and pact of the tome; add 5 spells of up to 5th level from any spell list to your spells known.
bladebound: requires 18th level and pact of the blade; each time you reduce a creature to 0 with your pact weapon, you can remove 1 level of exhaustion. if you have no levels of exhaustion, you can regain 1 expended pact magic slot.
soul link: requires 18th level and pact of the chain; familiar within 30’ can maintain concentration on 1 spell or effect for you.

Bladebound looks good, grand grimoire is potentially too powerful (warlocks have a limited spell list for a reason) and soul link...soul link is probably balanced since warlocks have such insane competition for concentration from hex.


pact magic mastery: requires 15th level; you can spend 2 slots to cast a spell at 6th level, 3 slots to cast a spell of 7th level. this can be your mystic arcanum spells or one of your known spells cast from a higher level slot.[/INDENT]
This is overpowered. No other caster gets the ability to cast more than one spell of each level over 5th a day. Disallow mystic arcanum spells and it MIGHT be balanced.


Clarifications: Chain pact familiars grant the magic resistance trait.
If you are going to allow this then the chain pact familiars should also be actual members of their race that have a deal with the warlock, with all the potential disobedience (particularly from quasits) that implies.
Normal familiars are not actual creatures but are essentially a part of their owner's essence made form. The magic resistance is incredibly powerful and should come with a drawback and so since it comes from a sidebar, not part of the creature's stat block it makes sense that only real versions of the creature have that trait.

In short I hope you buffed the s**t out of every other class too.

Edit: I realise this is straying off topic and if anyone wants to go further into it then I suggest starting a new thread.

[kaoskonfety]

Na I was kind of expecting this to veer off once no one could actually provide the mystery alt text for charmed.

I agree that a few of the invocations need a bit more meat (especially the "you can now cast Bane" and similar spell option invocations that ALSO take a spell slot to cast) to get picked in general, but the overall "very customizable class" feel is spectacular. I'd like to see them do more of it.

I'm honestly fine with Great Old One - Create Thrall as written (communication range "the plane" and you can, if you have their trust, have slightly limited telepathy with the whole party at zero cost, it doesn't have a cool down or a save, beguiling influence and this is pretty darn good, one casting of sleep and now all of the goblins are your friends, you can totally do a passivist/minimum killing "hold person, sleep, Create Thrall" build/party - you maniac, this just occurred to me and I'm writing it up later...) but you need some DM support to be making it useful "combat wise" - either social skills can talk people into doing some questionable things on a roll of 20+ (attack your allies/these bears for us, sit in the corner and do nothing while we finish this fight, drink this green smelly liquid, tell us where all the traps are and their work arounds/disarm them) or they just get played as kinda befuddled cultist "Renfrew" when you give them orders.

[xyianth]

snip

I only posted the changes I made because I was asked to. I was not claiming that everyone should make the same changes. I have, in fact, made substantial changes to most classes in an attempt to bring most of them up to equivalent power to the RAW bard and paladin. I disagree with your assessment of my changes due to several reasons, but I don't want to derail the thread further. I will note that I actually had a typo in pact magic mastery: it should have required 18th level. I'll edit my previous post to correct.

Edit: I've posted my list of changes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401058-Let-the-Warlock-shine-improved-invocations-and-other-changes). You are welcome to post issues/critiques/whatever there to continue discussion if you like.


...I'm honestly fine with Great Old One - Create Thrall as written (communication range "the plane" and you can, if you have their trust, have slightly limited telepathy with the whole party at zero cost, it doesn't have a cool down or a save, beguiling influence and this is pretty darn good, one casting of sleep and now all of the goblins are your friends, you can totally do a passivist/minimum killing "hold person, sleep, Create Thrall" build/party - you maniac, this just occurred to me and I'm writing it up later...) but you need some DM support to be making it useful "combat wise" - either social skills can talk people into doing some questionable things on a roll of 20+ (attack your allies/these bears for us, sit in the corner and do nothing while we finish this fight, drink this green smelly liquid, tell us where all the traps are and their work arounds/disarm them) or they just get played as kinda befuddled cultist "Renfrew" when you give them orders.

Unfortunately, this won't work RAW. The charmed condition doesn't mean they trust you, it only means you have advantage on social checks (persuasion, intimidation, deception) against them. The ability is also limited to 1 creature at a time. Because of this limitation, it is probably best used on a king or equivalent NPC.

[kaoskonfety]

Unfortunately, this won't work RAW. The charmed condition doesn't mean they trust you, it only means you have advantage on social checks (persuasion, intimidation, deception) against them. The ability is also limited to 1 creature at a time. Because of this limitation, it is probably best used on a king or equivalent NPC.

hmm... if I misread/missed the bit where it states its only one guy at a time, in that case ... it's.... bad.

Part of the problem is that they don't define clearly or even give real guidelines on what social checks can DO.
- Does a 30+ persuade/deception check allow you to have someone attack their friends/family? It says impossible - is that impossible? And if this still doesn't cut it what the heck does the impossible check DO?
- Or is it just quite hard (20+)? I'd rule it around here to "act against allies", probably the 30+ for seriously endangering/damaging your life to no benefit - others would put it far higher or not at all.
- Is it easier to get them to kill the king (high risk of getting caught, definite punishment) or their lover (personal investment, generally much lower risks physical)? Is this a difficulty thing or an advantage/disadvantage thing?

ah well...

[xyianth]

For clarity's sake, the ability says the creature is charmed by you until ... you use this feature again. So the ability is at-will, but I read that as meaning the effects wear off if you use the ability again on a different creature. I suppose it could also be interpreted to mean it lasts until you use the feature on that same creature again, which would allow it to work on any number of creatures at a time. That would make the ability significantly better. Maybe we should ask this in the RAW thread?

[kaoskonfety]

For clarity's sake, the ability says the creature is charmed by you until ... you use this feature again. So the ability is at-will, but I read that as meaning the effects wear off if you use the ability again on a different creature. I suppose it could also be interpreted to mean it lasts until you use the feature on that same creature again, which would allow it to work on any number of creatures at a time. That would make the ability significantly better. Maybe we should ask this in the RAW thread?

I'll take a closer look when I get home, I personally probably won't bother with the RAW thread (me and RAW don't get along from fights in older (3rd) editions, we are getting re-acquainted slowly but there are alot of hurt feelings on both sides)

[Dalebert]

Yes, it's pretty clear that you only have one thrall at a time. Make a new one and the previous one becomes free.

As for what social checks can do, Hannibal Lecter convinced a guy that he was evil and should choke himself on his own tongue as repentance. :smallconfused: