Kidnapping a PC vs killing them

[Lightlawbliss]

Long story short, some players in one of my campaigns have managed to anger somebody very powerfull and I am currently thinking about this powerfull person sending an (on CR) assassin at them to "deliver a message". The problem I am having is should the assassin have the goal of kidnapping a PC or killing a PC, or something in the middle. Any thoughts?

[Elricaltovilla]

Long story short, some players in one of my campaigns have managed to anger somebody very powerfull and I am currently thinking about this powerfull person sending an (on CR) assassin at them to "deliver a message". The problem I am having is should the assassin have the goal of kidnapping a PC or killing a PC, or something in the middle. Any thoughts?

One singular assassin? By themselves? Better go for the kill, otherwise the 4 v. 1 will go very poorly for the assassin. One CR appropriate enemy is only supposed to waste 1/4 of the party's resources. That means they might kill one party member, or the wizard and cleric call an early night because they had to use up a couple extra spell slots that day, and in the latter case the PCs learn nothing. You probably want to ramp up the difficulty of the encounter by adding a second or third assassin and using ambush tactics.

Honestly, its going to depend on a lot of factors:

First, what kind of powerful person is this? Are they ruthless enough to send assassins out on a regular basis? Do they need the PCs for something important? How much did the PCs piss this person off? Alignment, goals and personality of the person hiring the assassin play major roles in what the goal of the assassin should be.

Second, what kind of message do you want to send to the players? Do they need to know not to cross this person? Are they stepping off the tracks and you're trying to bring them back in line (sending assassins is not the way to do this btw)? Do you want them to discover who hired the assassin and immediately drop everything to go and get revenge (99.9999....% of the time this is exactly what will happen)?

Kidnapping a PC is probably a bad idea from a gameplay standpoint. You end up splitting the party, suspending the forward momentum of the campaign, and if a full party couldn't stop this one assassin, chances are a weakened party won't have the abilities necessary to rescue their compatriot. In addition, you'll have a player who will most likely have to sit out on all the fun.

Killing a PC is an option depending on the level and ability of the party. If resurrection is plentiful enough it can serve as a good warning without hurting the flow of the game too much, but if resurrection is not easy to come by or your party isn't used to being killed, then the players might get upset over you "punishing them." The Player of the PC who died may take it personally regardless of what happens as well.

A third option might be to reduce a character to unconsciousness but not death. Leave them bleeding and broken on the ground, but still alive, with the message written in their blood on the wall next to them: Do not cross me.

[Nibbens]

You need to read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1)first if you're dealing with PF. Even if not, the concepts within are similar. (I live and die by this handbook now).

A CR 1 encounter is supposed to be a weak encounter for a Level one group of 4 players.
A CR 5 creature is supposed to be an even match for a level one group of 4 players. When I say even match I mean its a considerable drain of their expendable resources (HP, scrolls, potions, stats, etc) and you may get extremely close to killing a few PC's. Generally the PCs have more combat options than the creatures they are fighting, so they usually come out on top here.
CR 6 and more start to tip the scales in the favor of the enemy when against a level one group of 4 players and you start killing the PCs in the right circumstances.

When paired down to scale of a 1 on 1 fight. a CR 1 creature is supposed to be a considerable drain on a single PC.

Increase this scale as needed to find a level appropriate for your group.

Also, this is for PF. I'm pretty sure the CR works differently for different editions.

However, as for the true intent of your post - I'd say go for the kill. If the assassin "kills" the PC - he takes him hostage. No need to split hairs about how much damage that last attack does. Find out the Players HP before the combat begins and keep track of it during the fight. If/When he kills the PC - the character wakes up as a hostage with 0 hp - staggered (or 1 hp if not PF) and go from there.

[Tragak]

Long story short, some players in one of my campaigns have managed to anger somebody very powerfull and I am currently thinking about this powerfull person sending an (on CR) assassin at them to "deliver a message". The problem I am having is should the assassin have the goal of kidnapping a PC or killing a PC, or something in the middle. Any thoughts? I've heard of player-groups that would find an NPC's goal of "kill a PC" to be the most fun to encounter, player groups that would find an NPC's goal of "kidnap a PC" to be the most fun, and player groups that would find an NPC's goal of "[any of 1000 other things]" to be the most fun.

What does your player group like?

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Long story short, some players in one of my campaigns have managed to anger somebody very powerfull and I am currently thinking about this powerfull person sending an (on CR) assassin at them to "deliver a message". The problem I am having is should the assassin have the goal of kidnapping a PC or killing a PC, or something in the middle. Any thoughts?

If you do go the kidnapping route and it is one experienced assassin that succeeds. Make him a free-agent so they are rescue-able and don't have to deal with the assassin. Then you use him again later as a reoccurring enemy that won't die until they are stronger.

Edited: How about send one assassin that there is no way they will win with the intent of almost killing one member and then disappear as payed off guards by the "powerful individual" happen to be patrolling in that area "scaring him off". Then you have mystery without putting a kink in the campaign.

[Crake]

I've always found that attacking a player's reputation is a better way to handle things like the BBEG trying to get back at the players. It prevents the whole issue of people feeling singled out when they die, doesn't break the flow of the game like kidnapping would, and gives the players a lasting drawback, that they can work toward fixing (proving themselves innocent in the case of say, being framed for murder) or just avoid (screw that, we'll just never go back to that town).

[endur]

When Lex Luthor is worried about Superman, he sends his henchmen to kidnap Lois Lane.

Don't go after the PCs, go after their loved ones. Then hold the loved ones hostage. Or else!

[Lightlawbliss]

When Lex Luthor is worried about Superman, he sends his henchmen to kidnap Lois Lane.

Don't go after the PCs, go after their loved ones. Then hold the loved ones hostage. Or else!

I considered it, but I quickly remembered that they all through one way or another managed to make their families and friends dead before they started.

And I should probably reword what I said about CR. He will be on CR, before any considerations like tactics are concerned, and optimized to perform stealth missions. PC's likely won't know he is there before the first sneak attack and vanishes before they can respond levels of optimized.

[Crake]

When Lex Luthor is worried about Superman, he sends his henchmen to kidnap Lois Lane.

Don't go after the PCs, go after their loved ones. Then hold the loved ones hostage. Or else!

This doesn't work so well when players have no attachments beyond their loot. Could target that instead though? :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

Nothing shows power like sending guards to round up the PCs to send them to jail. Like by guards who have been obviously paid off by someone to pull them in on trumped up charges.

Then the PCs get a sweet jail break scene. But have the outlaw moniker stamped across their faces whenever they have dealings in that town.

[endur]

I considered it, but I quickly remembered that they all through one way or another managed to make their families and friends dead before they started.

Superman was a refugee from an alien world where all of his relatives were blown to bits. He was adopted into a family and made new friends on earth.

Are your PCs devoid of wanting to find new friends and families?

Also, lots of times in fiction, people who where thought to have died long time ago, turned out to not have died. Maybe Parent X has been secretly imprisoned all these years by BBEG. Better yet, BBEG is Parent Y in disguise.

[jaydubs]

Just ask yourself 3 questions:

1. Does it make sense?

Assassination and kidnapping both make sense. No clear winner.

2. Will it be fun for the players (including the character in question)?

Assassination - Could be fun, or not, depending on how you do it. If you go overboard with assassin effectiveness though, it definitely won't be fun. Aka, he's too optimized for his job for the party to notice before someone just drops dead. But if you drop hints, keep them looking over their shoulders, maybe add some of the stereotypical "you'll be dead in 3 days" warnings, it could be a very interesting scenario. Just make sure that if the character in question is killed, there's sufficient dramatic build up, and a chance for him/her to defeat the assassin (either through player choices or dice rolls, preferably both).

Kidnap - Depends entirely on the player. Definitely don't autocapture, or optimize the enemy enough to make it seem like one. Also, some players just don't like being put in the situation of having to be rescued. A lot of people enjoy playing heroic types, rather than the ones needing rescue.

3. Will it be hard to implement?

This depends entirely on the game. But how much trouble will it cause in the campaign if that character is killed? How quickly can a character be re-rolled and fit into the game? If this character is assassinated, it would be a good idea to have the deciding moment take place towards the end of the session, so a new one can be rolled up and then introduced at the start of the next session.

Conversely, how difficult will it be to run the game if one of the PCs is kidnapped (almost de facto a split party scenario)? Is splitting the party normal for the game? Are there convenient side-characters that player can run instead (lots of parties have NPC hangers on)?

***
If this were my group, I'd go the assassin route. But I'd play up the fact that the assassin is tasked to send a message, as well as to kill the character in question. He'd leave some kind of ominous warning to the PC that he's been targeted, and that he has X days to live. And then presumably they would try to stop the assassin before the deadline came, though I'd leave the particulars for them to decide. For instance, they might:

-Seek out the assassin and kill him first.
-Find an extremely defensible position.
-Counter-ambush.
-Run away and hide.
-Find out who took out the contract and try to get them to revoke it.
-Try to convince the assassin to switch sides.
-Fake the character's death.
-Any number of things I haven't though of.

[endur]

Nothing shows power like sending guards to round up the PCs to send them to jail. Like by guards who have been obviously paid off by someone to pull them in on trumped up charges.

Then the PCs get a sweet jail break scene. But have the outlaw moniker stamped across their faces whenever they have dealings in that town.

That's a great idea.

[sideswipe]

one assassin with a sleep arrow (or similar) does it whilst the rest of the party are not looking.
some of the poisons are decently high saves for a low level party so you could get a few poison rings and use them as weapons to hit touch flat footed and make then fall asleep. and drag them off.

[Knaight]

I considered it, but I quickly remembered that they all through one way or another managed to make their families and friends dead before they started.

This habit is generally there precisely because of overuse of kidnapping of loved ones, massacres at home villages, and other such things. All of them are overused enough that it's worth being extra careful about their employment and only pulling them out when extremely appropriate.

[Coidzor]

Nothing says power like arranging to have the local menagerie/circus's Rust Monsters and Disenchanters get loose right where the PCs are going to be. With or without appropriate bait for the PCs to want to do something other than flee the beasties.

[Crake]

This habit is generally there precisely because of overuse of kidnapping of loved ones, massacres at home villages, and other such things. All of them are overused enough that it's worth being extra careful about their employment and only pulling them out when extremely appropriate.

I've noticed players tend to make backstories like that by default, rather than due to bad experiences. The stereotypical orphan character is fairly common.

[Garktz]

Just go ahead and kill one of them, no combat, no nothing, they wake up and one of them is dead.
Leave a bag and a note by the corpse.
In the bag there is 25000 gp for a true resurection.
The note says "dont mess with me, next time wont be a bag by the corpse and will be more than just one corpse"

That should scare them enought to make the pcs not screw with them at least for a really long time.

This should work only if pcs are low/mid level (i would say lvl 10/12 max)

[Segev]

What have the PCs accomplished that they're proud of?

What NPCs have they interacted with, and how do they feel about them now?

What do the PCs value?

[goto124]

What do the PLAYERS value? Do they actually RP?

[Psyren]

Shadow Walk is great for kidnapping. You show up, grab the PC, impossible will save, and off they go, no willingness needed.

[Lightlawbliss]

What do the PLAYERS value? Do they actually RP?

short answer: stuff
medium answer: All of the stuff
long answer:
the tank values his "spiked chain of deal lots of damage" which isn't really that much damage.
the artificer values his collection of magic items and his extra dimensional spaces full of constructs (complete with comfortable living quarters).
the bard values her solid gold, gem incrusted lute and the chainmail she got a long time ago as a "I'm sorry" from the artificer for getting her killed.
the wizard values her spellbook, but taking that is so cliche it isn't even funny any more.
The party also happens to have recently lost the land they owned because it changed sides in a war and they didn't care enough to defend their claim.

[Elricaltovilla]

Was it a single PC who ticked off this very powerful person or the entire group?

[Toilet Cobra]

This doesn't work so well when players have no attachments beyond their loot. Could target that instead though? :smalltongue:

This. Take something valuable from each person while they slumber, and I dunno, maybe leave a dagger with the villain's house sigil stuck in the wall. Pretty sure silence + invisibility scrolls would make this trivial for even a hired thief.

For added effect, don't hang on to their stuff- sell it and let the free market take their goods where they can never find them.

[hifidelity2]

Level of the party is an issue as that will determine if they are able to fight back effectively

I had this happen in a campaign - party were approx 4th level and rather than kill them they were all knocked out (Sleeping gas in their room at night - make a save every round) and then they were sold as slaves (The assassin got the money for getting rid of them and extra for selling them). This also gave them the chance to back track the trail (i.e. who sold them, who employed him etc). It was great fun watching them struggle as I had them working in thr salt mines so they managed to escape wearing nothing but loin clothes each (so no spell components, armour etc etc)

[Nibbens]

Maybe instead of taking things - replace their goods with others. All of a sudden the bulls-eye lantern that one PC had, is now a normal lantern.

Now, the bad guys have personal items of all of them - now bam! nightmare spells ftw!

[Segev]

Release kobolds into the Artificer's extradimensional lair, and have them repurpose it into a dungeon of their own dwelling. Be as crafty and cruel as needs be, and remember that damage to the dungeon is damage to the artificer's space...

I don't know if the goal is to punish one PC, or all of them. What does the bad guy hope to get out of this beyond revenge? Simply kidnapping a PC rather than killing him seems like there's more to it, so what does he hope to gain from the kidnapping and keeping said PC alive?

[mashlagoo1982]

Just go ahead and kill one of them, no combat, no nothing, they wake up and one of them is dead.
Leave a bag and a note by the corpse.
In the bag there is 25000 gp for a true resurection.
The note says "dont mess with me, next time wont be a bag by the corpse and will be more than just one corpse"

That should scare them enought to make the pcs not screw with them at least for a really long time.

This should work only if pcs are low/mid level (i would say lvl 10/12 max)

I like this idea but would modify it slightly myself.
My concern would be that the living party would just keep the money and have the dead PC roll a new character.

Instead, the party doesn't find money, but some enfebbled old priest who can bring the dead PC back to life.
Perhaps a family member is being held hostage.

Anyhow, the priest brings the PC back to life but dies from the stress in the process.

[atemu1234]

Murder is fun. If he dies, use rules from Heroes of Horror to make it interesting to rez him.

[icefractal]

Superman was a refugee from an alien world where all of his relatives were blown to bits. He was adopted into a family and made new friends on earth.

Are your PCs devoid of wanting to find new friends and families?

Also, lots of times in fiction, people who where thought to have died long time ago, turned out to not have died. Maybe Parent X has been secretly imprisoned all these years by BBEG. Better yet, BBEG is Parent Y in disguise.I recommend against this. If the PCs all had their families killed off in backstory, it's quite likely because they don't like the "your family member is a hostage" plots. And I can assure you, it's not just a case of it being done well or badly, some people just don't like it as a plot element.

I mean, I love cilantro, and will happily eat it as the primary component of a salad. But I wouldn't try to sneak cilantro into the food of someone who says they dislike it.

[Coidzor]

short answer: stuff
medium answer: All of the stuff
long answer:
the tank values his "spiked chain of deal lots of damage" which isn't really that much damage.
the artificer values his collection of magic items and his extra dimensional spaces full of constructs (complete with comfortable living quarters).
the bard values her solid gold, gem incrusted lute and the chainmail she got a long time ago as a "I'm sorry" from the artificer for getting her killed.
the wizard values her spellbook, but taking that is so cliche it isn't even funny any more.
The party also happens to have recently lost the land they owned because it changed sides in a war and they didn't care enough to defend their claim.

Obviously they need to be exiled for not defending their lands and for some trumped up charges so they know that they're being exiled primarily because they angered the wrong people and ceding lands to the enemy was just the most convenient excuse to paint them as cowards and damage their reputation.

And, best of all, they don't really care about leaving, but they'll see the consequences of their apathy as the entire line of sidequests that they were on just dry up.

[Grollub]

Just go ahead and kill one of them, no combat, no nothing, they wake up and one of them is dead.
Leave a bag and a note by the corpse.
In the bag there is 25000 gp for a true resurection.
The note says "dont mess with me, next time wont be a bag by the corpse and will be more than just one corpse"

That should scare them enought to make the pcs not screw with them at least for a really long time.

This should work only if pcs are low/mid level (i would say lvl 10/12 max)

Lol , I can see many a party just keeping the 25k.. laughing bout it.. and telling the dead person to re-roll.

[Arbane]

When Lex Luthor is worried about Superman, he sends his henchmen to kidnap Lois Lane.

Don't go after the PCs, go after their loved ones. Then hold the loved ones hostage. Or else!

Lex Luthor's primary superpower is having an archenemy who won't just punt him into the nearest volcano the first time he tries that BS. I suspect your Big Bad lacks that particular power.

What's more:


I considered it, but I quickly remembered that they all through one way or another managed to make their families and friends dead before they started.



This habit is generally there precisely because of overuse of kidnapping of loved ones, massacres at home villages, and other such things. All of them are overused enough that it's worth being extra careful about their employment and only pulling them out when extremely appropriate.

What they said. If all your players are making "Teflon Psychopath" characters, it MIGHT be because they're sick of GM hostage-taking. (Or maybe they'd just rather kill orcs than play soap opera. Or they're uncreative. Or...)

How about having one (or more) PCs wake up in the morning with a dagger stuck in their pillow, with a note on it saying "Stay away from (wherever BBEG is based)"? This would dissuade most sane people...most PCs, on the other hand, would immediately be heading to (wherever), with a side-trip to kill the dagger-placer.


Lol , I can see many a party just keeping the 25k.. laughing bout it.. and telling the dead person to re-roll.

Yeah, that sounds like a Knights of the Dinner Table comic just waiting to happen. "Hey, Bob! Tick him off again, I need a new spellbook."

[goto124]

What they said. If all your players are making "Teflon Psychopath" characters, it MIGHT be because they're sick of GM hostage-taking. (Or maybe they'd just rather kill orcs than play soap opera. Or they're uncreative. Or...)

How about having one (or more) PCs wake up in the morning with a dagger stuck in their pillow, with a note on it saying "Stay away from (wherever BBEG is based)"? This would dissuade most sane people...most PCs, on the other hand, would immediately be heading to (wherever), with a side-trip to kill the dagger-placer.

Idea: Do this, but lie about where the BBEG is placed. This will cause the players to move their PCs to a different area with monsters of a CR they can actually handle.

Or, do the pillow dagger to the players IRL!

[Tragak]

Lex Luthor's primary superpower is having an archenemy who won't just punt him into the nearest volcano the first time he tries that BS. Honestly, that's my favorite part of Lex Luthor.

Lex is a level 3-4 villain with high INT, above average CHA/WIS, and average STR/DEX/CON. Superman is a level 15-20 hero with high INT, WIS, CHA, STR, DEX, CON, and dozens of at-will magic abilities (flight, energy attacks ...). Lex Luthor cannot kill Superman. At all.

But neither can Superman waste time - even a second - indulging Luthor in a fistfight when Luthor's plan to harm innocents is already happening all over the world. That's what gives Lex Luthor stories the chance to be amazing (even if many of the individual stories aren't handled well): stories about Superman having to beat Luthor up before Luthor can beat him up are boring because there's no challenge. If Luthor/Superman were an RPG campaign, and the "conflict" revolved around dealing HP damage, I would tell the player "Put your dice down, Clark, we already know Kal-El's going to win."

But having to find and rescue the hostages over here, find and disarm the bomb over there, then find and destroy the satellite laser cannon somewhere else... Superman might be the most powerful individual in the world, and he can do anything somewhere, but Lex Luthor has so many people under his employ that "he" can do something everywhere.

Now it doesn't matter how much stronger Superman is in a fistfight, because he has to stop Lex Luthor's plan instead of just beating up the man himself, and now there is the more interesting challenge of having to stop as much damage as possible. Just because Superman is definitely going to survive his conflict with Luthor doesn't mean that he's definitely going to succeed, and in fact he probably won't (at least, not completely).