PDA

View Full Version : Bumping Uglies: a paladin rewrite.



TheThan
2007-04-07, 06:48 PM
Bumping Uglies: a paladin rewrite.


“ Your not good, at least not any definition of Good that I would want to follow.”
- Roy Greenhilt.


Ok every time I look at paladins I sort of sigh. I find them completely boring and a bit contrived to me. It tries to be a fighter/cleric hybrid but I believe it fails in doing this. With two solid abilities and a few unimportant abilities it is easy to see why few people like or play the class. I also have a serious problem with detect evil and smite evil. This combination screams for players to turn their players into smite turrets, people who are too eager to activate detect evil and smite every evil thing they come across.
So in effort to break this stereotype and also to make paladins more exiting to play I’ve taken it upon myself to rewrite the class a bit and make it more interesting and fun to play. I based this class off of the duskblade from the player’s handbook II, so yeah it bears a bit of a resemblance to it. Anyway if you’ve got some questions, comments or critiques feel free to post ‘em.

Abilities: charisma affects the power of a paladin’s spells, while strength, dexterity and constitution increases his capabilities in combat.

Alignment: Paladins can be of any good alignment.

Hit Dice: D8
Class skills: the following skills and the Key ability for each are: Climb (str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int),Knowledge (the planes) (int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex),Sense Motive (Wis), and spellcraft (int).
Skill points at 1st level: (4+int bonus x4)
Skill points at each additional level: 4+int bonus

Paladin stats (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g42/TheThan/paladinstats2.jpg)

Class features
Weapon and armor proficiencies:
The paladin is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, and all armor and shields (except tower shields).

Code of Conduct

The paladin must adhere to a specific code of conduct. Determined by the player and Dm during character creation. The Code can include any rules that the player and Dm deem fitting. The player and Dm should discuss possible exceptions to the rules, and situations that are not covered by the rules. It is vitally important that these rules be decided upon firstly and that both Dm and player agree to the rules. It is strongly suggested that the code be written out.
Example paladin codes:
Bushido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido)
Knightly virtues (chivalry) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightly_virtues)


Violating the code
When a paladin knowingly and willingly violates the code of conduct he is subject to severe penalties. A system of “Cards” is in place to keep track of violations and appropriate punishments.

1st offence: the first time the paladin violates his code of conduct. He looses all spells and supernatural abilities for the remainder of the day. He regains his spells and other supernatural abilities at the beginning of the next day. (should this happen at the end of the day, the punishment is carried over to the next day).
A “yellow card” is placed upon him, indicating to the DM that the character is in probationary status.

2nd offence: The paladin once again looses his spell casting and supernatural abilities for the remainder of the day. He regains his spells and supernatural abilities at the beginning of the next day. The character receives a second “yellow card”.

3rd offence: When the paladin violates his code of conduct a 3rd time, he looses his spell casting and supernatural abilities, until he atones for his failures (see atoning below). The character must succeed a wisdom saving throw (DC 20), failure results in his alignment shifting one direction (from good to neutral, neutral to evil, or evil to neutral, neutral to good as the case may be).
The character revives a “red card” indicating he has violated his code of conduct too often.


Atoning:

Should a paladin begin to fall, he may attempt to atone for his failures. Doing so requires 1 week of quite contemplation, prayer and fasting. After this the paladin must complete a challenging quest, without the benefit of allies or his spells and supernatural abilities. This quest should tempt him to violate his code a 4th time. A paladin must complete the quest without succumbing to his temptations (not violating his code again). Succeeding in completing the quest without succumbing to his temptations will restore his spells and supernatural abilities. However this process takes 24 hours from the successful completion of the quest.
Because this quest is a test of character, the paladin should not receive any other benefits from this quest, no experience or wealth should be handed out to the paladin. A paladin can only atone for his failures after he receives a red card from the DM.

Failure in completing this quest and failure in resisting the temptation results in his alignment slipping further form its original point. In addition He may attempt to atone again, but the whole prossess starts over. If a paladin’s alignment slips into the opposite alignment from what it was (for instance from good to evil), then he may no longer gain levels in the paladin class and he no longer has access to his spells and supernatural abilities.



Spells
The paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the following list of spells. Like a Cleric, Paladins must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the following table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high charisma score.
Paladins meditate or pray for their spells. Each paladin must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a paladin can prepare spells. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. Paladins do not suffer spell failure when casting spells in armor.

Lay on Hands (Su)

Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Divine channeling:
At 3rd level the paladin can use one standard action to cast any touch spell he knows and deliver the spell though his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke an attack of opportunity The paladin can only cast touch spells with a casting time of one standard action. When the melee attack hits an opponent, the attack deals normal weapon damage, the spell’s effect is resolved.
At 13th level the paladin can cast any touch spell he knows, and may make a full attack action, with his channeled spell affecting each target he targets that round. This discharges the spell at the end of the full attack.

Divine Grace (Su)

At 4th level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws

Quick cast:
Beginning at 5th level a paladin can cast any paladin spell he knows as a swift action, this spell is treated as being under the effects of the quicken spell metamagic feat, but without the increase in caster level. At 5th level he can only cast one spell per day as a swift action, this increases to 2/day at 10th level, 3/day at 15th and 4/day at 20th level.

Spell power:
At 6th level the paladin can more easily overcome the spell resistance of any enemy you successfully injure with your melee attack. you gain a +2 bonus on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 16th level.

Special Mount (Sp)

Upon reaching 7th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy war horse (for a Medium paladin) or a war pony (for a Small paladin).

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.




Paladin spells:

0 level paladin spells:
Cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance, light, purify food and drink, resistance, shield of faith, virtue
1st level paladin spells
Bless, bless water, bless weapon, cure light wounds, detect undead, divine favor, magic weapon, protection from evil, Shocking grasp.
2nd level paladin spells
Aid, align weapon, bears endurance, bull’s strength, calm emotions, eagle’s splendor, shield other, spiritual weapon, Touch of idiocy, zone of truth
3rd level paladin spells
Divine power, cure serious wounds, daylight, magic vestment, prayer, remove curse, remove disease, speak with dead,
4th level paladin spells
Disrupting weapon, mark of justice, righteous might, spell resistance, heal, heroes’ feast, undeath to death, holy word
5th level paladin spells
Firestorm, heal (mass), holy aura, shield of law

Note: The paladin table is off slightly, quick cast should have a progression of 5-10-15-20 not 5-9-15-20

DraPrime
2007-04-07, 08:31 PM
Certainly a fascinating variation of the paladin. I found a website with a couple others. Personally I like the paladin of freedom. Nothings better than screwing the rules while doing good.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny

TheThan
2007-04-07, 09:33 PM
Yeah, the paladin of slaughter and tyranny are essentially the same as the standard paladin, but with reversed alignments. And the only difference between the two is the aura of despair, and debilitating auras. So I sort of go “meh” when I see them.

One thing that is really needed is hard and fast rules for determining breaking alignments the paladin code. So I that an important part of the rewrite.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-07, 10:04 PM
I like the overall idea. The spell power ability is particularly nice for paladins who tend to challenge fiends frequently, you kept their iconic abilities, and the channel spell is especially cool for adding your cure spells to an undead-killing spree. And thank you for giving them the Will save they so greatly deserve. I can't say I agree with the d8 HD. I've always seen paladins (and other knight-like characters) as d12s myself, but that's just me.

The spells are off I think. Specifically, the 4th and 5th level spells. The 4th level paladin spells consist of 5th, 6th, even 7th level cleric spells, and you have some of the best cleric spells as 5th level paladin spells. Much as I dislike partial casting personally, I don't think that partial casting but with some of the best full caster spells fits.

I like the more detailed code of conduct except for the part where the paladin's alignment changes. I'd figure that a rule where alignment might change after X acts should be implemented across the board, not just for paladins (myself, I'd assume that a paladin's alignment would be more resistant to change than those of other characters).

Fizban
2007-04-07, 10:32 PM
Hmm, surprisingly similar to the Dawnblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27496&highlight=dawnblade).

Your divine channeling ability seems to be largely useless, as the only damaging spell I see on the list is Firestorm. Except for cure spells against undead, there's no use.

You should also put the abilities in order of level gained, right now they're all over the place. And you should probably make a table too, as it will help compare to the current paladin and duskblade.

shaka gl
2007-04-08, 12:37 AM
I like the overall idea, except for one litlle thingy: Divine Grace at lvl 7???!!!!
That SUCKS (yes, in capital letters). I really think that Divine Grace should be, at most, at level 4. Maybe its just me...

TheThan
2007-04-08, 02:54 AM
First off, thanks for the input everyone.

The spells are a little off, I didn’t want to give them full access to the cleric list (thusly making the cleric useless), but at the same time I wanted them to be effective and on par with the duskblade for overall power. I’ll have to go through and add in some touch spells to fill out the list. One of the problems I’ve come across is most of the aggressive touch spells in the cleric list are necromancery and I didn’t want to give the paladin spells of that sort. So I’m probably going to have to borrow a bit from the arcane spell list.

But I’ll do that later as it’s 1 Am out here and I’m getting tired.

PS. there is a link to a table, and I'll reorganize it when i update the spell lists.

fireinthedust
2007-04-08, 04:08 AM
special mount at 10th level?! that's so high! I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't see why I need to be able to hold off an orc horde single-handed before I can ride around on a hippogriff that I gain with the leadership feat. Or a giant tiger. Or a horse. It's not going to break the game if they get a horse at 5th level. Heck, some characters start with a horse. Rangers get a wolf, or druids, or something.

what's wrong with horses? or tigers? Or a Liger, known for it's powers and magic?

TheThan
2007-04-08, 12:58 PM
Ok I’ve edited the above, added a couple touch spells, one problem I found is that most of the damage dealing ones are necromancery spells, and i don't want to give the paladin too many of those (for obvious reasons. I’ve also moved some abilities around a bit so everything should look better now.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-08, 01:04 PM
looks great, a perfect way to solve the problem

Theodoxus
2007-04-08, 03:29 PM
I will forever be of the impression that Paladins should be the alignment of their gods. The fact that they are RAW Lawful Good seriously cramps the style of a lot of gods who could use a hard hitting holy (as in the true meaning of the word - Set Apart) warrior.

So, allowing any good is a decent start - but doesn't go far enough, imo.

What I would do, would be to utilize the new Saga rules for Star Wars D20, and create talent trees which would allow each Paladin to tailor their own feel. You could make the iconic 'slay all evil' Paladin that everyone hates, or make a 'peace-nik save the children' type Paladin that is hardly ever seen, to everything in between.

More importantly, the talents could be tied to alignment, so Gruumsh could have orc Paladins that channel necromantic spells and can detect good while remaining favored to him. Paladins of Corellon could have talents to emphasize weapon mastery and protection of the weak while Paladins of Moradin could have talents that emphasize overcoming underdark adversaries and armored protection.

Turning the Paladin into the front line cleric is a great idea, especially if the cloistered cleric is mandated as a norm. True Clerics become back line tacticians and walking bandaids with mediocre combat skills but advanced diplomatic and lore skills while Paladins can take the front line in heavy armor, healing, and commanding presense. The two would then mesh well, and still leave room for specialized fighters, brutish barbarians and tracking rangers to be unique.

Another thought, regarding HPs, specifically. I think talents should encompass HD as well. The heavy armor warrior should have more HPs than a skrimishing archer (training in that weight tends to build both the skeletal-muscular system (able to fend off damage) and knowledge of how to turn telling blows into mere scrapes. Depending on the Talent trees possessed, every high bab class should be able to choose what HD they get for that level and the next (Talents are provided at every odd level). So, a heavy armor talent taken at 1st level would provide a d12 HD for 1st and 2nd, but if a skirmishing talent were taken at 3rd, they would get a d8 for 3rd and 4th instead.

Course, I don't have the Saga book, so I don't know the entire system WotC has come up with... maybe that's already taken into consideration - maybe not. But I definitely think that 4.0 will head in the 'few classes, many talents' direction - and I'm all happy for it.

Theo

TheThan
2007-04-08, 04:26 PM
Theodoxus,
That is a great idea, I’d love to implement it, however it would require starting from scratch, and while I think I could probably pull it off, I don’t have the time right now to devote my creative energies to it. But fortunately there is another fantastic (admittedly its better than mine), on the boards already, it’s probably what your looking for.
Fax_Celestis’s awesome paladin writeup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551&highlight=paladin%5D%20Fax_Celestis%E2%80%99s%20aw esome%20paladin%20writeup)

What I’ve done is more of a quick fix and honestly didn’t take very long at all. One of the more important things about this rightup is the code of honor system.

fireinthedust
2007-04-08, 04:48 PM
here's another solution: Check out Greenronin.com for the title "book of the righteous". it details a whole pantheon of deities, sure, but it also details how to create ye holy warrior: a paladin-type class for virtually any deity. It looks good, and they do make some awesome titles at that d20 factory.

They have a spin-off book for it called "unholy warrior's handbook" which details how to make blackguards in this core class, and loads of eeeevil abilities. Goes well with their fiendish codex titles.
I'd like to see them pump out some stuff for Celestials. They've got a book called "the Avatar's handbook" (a divine spellcaster who summons lots of critters), but it's so thin compared to the fiendish stuff. Oh well.

martyboy74
2007-04-08, 07:54 PM
A code seems more like a lawful thing. A code doesn't realy seem in tune with a chaotic person, and one of these paladins could be chaotic good.

Holocron Coder
2007-04-09, 09:33 AM
There is value to what martyboy points out. if a paladin is going to be following a code... isn't that Lawful?

That aside,


Violating the code
When a paladin knowingly and willingly violates the code of conduct he is subject to server penalties. A system of “Cards” is in place to keep track of violations and appropriate punishments.

I believe you mean severe, unless this Paladin is also a hacker :)



Quick cast:
Beginning at 5th level a paladin can cast any paladin spell he knows as a swift action, this spell is treated as being under the effects of the quicken spell metamagic feat, but without the increase in caster level. at 5th level he can only cast one spell per day as a swift action, this increases to 2/day at 9th level, 3/day at 15th and 4/day at 20th level.

Capitalization error. Additionally, thats a progression of 5-9-15-20. It's generally 5-10-15-20.

Jayabalard
2007-04-09, 01:40 PM
There is value to what martyboy points out. if a paladin is going to be following a code... isn't that Lawful?That depends entirely on the code. As long as the rules don't require adhering to the rules of society and value individual liberty over hierarchies I think that's still following CG.

thehothead
2007-04-09, 03:26 PM
Following a code isn't alway's lawful.

For instance, if my character already screws over the law at all times, and he gets a code telling him to do so, that's not lawful. It's still chaotic because he would do so anyway.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 03:30 PM
That depends entirely on the code. As long as the rules don't require adhering to the rules of society and value individual liberty over hierarchies I think that's still following CG.

Being Lawful has nothing to do with society's laws. It's about following your own internal ethical compass. However, the second part of your, about protecting rights, does make sense.

Theodoxus
2007-04-09, 03:55 PM
Following a code isn't alway's lawful.

For instance, if my character already screws over the law at all times, and he gets a code telling him to do so, that's not lawful. It's still chaotic because he would do so anyway.

Ehh... maybe...

I played a LARP a while back, and it had Knights who had to keep a 4 point code. It could be anything they wanted, but had to follow some specific guidelines. Anyway - through laziness or attrition, there came about only 3 commonly used Knight Codes, one of which was the "Chaos Knight", and it basically espoused being unkempt and bully-ish.

Anyway, the point being, I really wish D&D didn't use the term "Lawful" as an alignment spar. "Ordered" / "Order" would be much better words for it. It is certainly reasonable that someone with a more chaotic bent would still follow a code of conduct - especially one mandated by their god - as is the case with Paladins. Just said code wouldn't be full of 'Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots' and would presumably consist of 'Thou Might Consider Doing X before Y and 'If Thou Insisteth On Doing A, Thou Shalt Have To Choose Either Consequence B or Consequence C'.

To place the moral compass of D&D into political terms, "Lawful" is conservative, while "Chaotic" is progressive. Really, neither is better than the other, though 'the church' tends to hold a more conservative view, and that's probably the basis for the LG distinction for Paladins.

That is also an excellent argument why Paladins shouldn't be forced to be only one alignment. While real world medieval Christians would see themselves as Lawful Good, their adversaries, typically the Jews and Muslims of the Middle East would see them overwhelmingly as Evil.

This translates into fictional fantasy quite well. Paladins are the Holy Warrior (literally 'Fighters set apart by god') of their faith. When they encounter evil - either literal personification of evil (chromatic dragons, devils, demons, etc.) or a mundane society of evil (orcs, zombies, enemy church) it is their responsibilty to be on the forefront of eradication. Turn that around and look at it from an evil gods point of view. His Holy Warriors (LE/CE Paladins) would see the forces of good as those who would stand in his way of achieving his goals (just as any good god would see an array of the forces of evil.) His Paladins would likewise be on the forefront of eradication.

All four types of Paladins would use similar but different forms of combat, have similar but different bonuses from their gods - but for the most part, they would be equals on the battlefield.

Theo

TheThan
2007-04-09, 07:07 PM
There is value to what martyboy points out. if a paladin is going to be following a code... isn't that Lawful?

That aside,

I believe you mean severe, unless this Paladin is also a hacker :)


Capitalization error. Additionally, thats a progression of 5-9-15-20. It's generally 5-10-15-20.


Oops I’ll have to fix that.

TheOOB
2007-04-09, 07:24 PM
I tried doing pretty much the same thing awhile back with my Dawnblade ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27496&highlight=dawnblade) class, and heres a few pieces of advice.

-Your spell list is really weak, spellcasting is a major feature of this class as you have written it, but aside from healing the class doesn't have many spells that do all that much, especially at the levels you gain access to the spells. The class also has a couple of abilities that work pretty much exclusivly with offensive spells (divine channeling and spell power), yet there are very few offensive spells(not even 1 each spell level), even less that can be used with divine channeling and/or spell power.

-Placing charisma based spellcasting and divine grace in the same class is really dangerous. Divine grace is balanced for a paladin because really thats the only huge benefit they gain from a high cha. The attack bonus to smite evil is nice but not that big a deal, and lay on hands is a weak ability at any level. With cha based spellcasting and divine grace the class gains a huge leap in power every two points of cha, more then any class should get.

-Requiring codes on base classes that do not have powerful enough abilities to warrent it is pointless. Codes of conduct and such should be a roleplay thing, and not a rules thing. When you make a base class you would do well to make the class as diverse as possible, there is no reason you could make a class like this that works for a chaotic evil person as well as a lawful good person, divine spellcasting allready doesn't allow you to cast spells that oppose your alignment.

knightsaline
2007-04-10, 02:18 AM
I want to see someone create a paladin who doesn't want to be a paladin, even though he or she has been Chosen By The Gods. that or is a paladin who isn't part of the church, therefore can do things that would take ages for the church to do. kind of like the fired cop that still does good even though they don't have the badge.

most of this is roleplaying, but it is a good start.

TheThan
2007-04-10, 03:37 PM
I appreciate the feedback, I figured this would be a quick and easy rewrite. But it looks like I’m going to have to take some time and revamp the class to make it well…better than it is currently. Thanks I’ll post that revamp after I finish it and take a good long look at it.

Ceres
2007-04-11, 12:23 PM
Now I'm not an expert in D&D, but isn't all divine spellcasting supposed to come from wisdom?

Wizards use intelligence because their spells come from knowledge and study. Sorcerers use charisma because they use their own magical "power". Clerics, paladins, druids etc. use wisdom because their spells come from a spiritual connection with the gods, nature etc.

And as TheOOB noted, charisma-based spellcasting combined with divine grace is a bit too much. In any case I'd like to have an explanation for why the paladins' divine-spells are different from the clerics' (not in terms of balance, but of setting)