Multiclass Bard and Magical Secrets

[Grand Warchief]

So I'm making a Paladin/bard and I plan on going lore bard for the magical secrets ability. My progression will be Paladin 7, Bard 5, Paladin 1, Bard 1, Paladin 6. By the time I get to pick 2 spells, I'll be able to cast up to 6th level spells. My plan is to pick Hero's feast and destructive wave. However, I'm not sure that I can. While I have the spell slots to cast 6th level spells and can readily cast lower level spells as 6th level, neither of my individual classes can cast 6th level and as such I'm not sure I can choose a 6th level spell. Some clarification would be great.

[Galen]

Ask your DM. If he's like me, he'll say "no". If he's slightly nicer than me, he'll say "sorry, no".

[calebrus]

neither of my individual classes can cast 6th level

You answered your own question.
Well, in truth, you *can* cast 6th level spells. But neither of your classes *knows* any 6th level spells, because your spells known and/or prepared are determined as if you were single classed. A single classed 6th level Bard knows 3rd level spells, so that's all you can choose for the level 6 magical secrets.

[Grand Warchief]

I don't understand why not. RAW says I should be able to because I can indeed cast spells as 6th level and I'm still getting access to a single 6th level spell 4 levels after a normal full caster would. :(

[calebrus]

I don't understand why not. RAW says I should be able to because I can indeed cast spells as 6th level and I'm still getting access to a single 6th level spell 4 levels after a normal full caster would. :(

I edited in why not above:
Well, in truth, you *can* cast 6th level spells. But neither of your classes *knows* any 6th level spells, because your spells known and/or prepared are determined as if you were single classed. A single classed 6th level Bard knows 3rd level spells, so that's all you can choose for the level 6 magical secrets.

It's the same reason that a Cleric 19 / Wizard 1 can't prepare Wish.

[calebrus]

^that^
(or.... what was there before it got deleted.... :smallredface: )

In your case, you prepare Paladin spells as a 16th level Paladin would.
You know the spells that a 6th level Bard knows.
After you have spells prepared/known in place, *then* you total up your levels to determine spell slots available.

[Grand Warchief]

If I leveled up in bard and was learning a new bard spell, I would say you're right. But magical secrets says I can choose any spell that is of a level I can cast them by RAW I should be able to. I guess since it's ambiguous it'll just be up to dm and since I'm not taking anything game breaking it should be fine.

[calebrus]

If I leveled up in bard and was learning a new bard spell, I would say you're right. But magical secrets says I can choose any spell that is of a level I can cast them by RAW I should be able to. I guess since it's ambiguous it'll just be up to dm and since I'm not taking anything game breaking it should be fine.

It is not ambiguous at all. You can't do it.

Here's the relevant text.

PHB, page 164 under under the multiclassing rules:

Spells Known and Prepared
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

Then, later:
Spell Slots
<snip>
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower level spells.

When determining your spells known, you are a level 6 Bard. How many slots you have is irrelevant. So even with Magical Secrets, you can use that feature to learn any spell of 3rd level or lower, just like a single-classed Bard would be able to.

[Grand Warchief]

Damn...just got lawyered. Fair enough. Kinda makes it suck for my build then though. Oh well.

[Xetheral]

It is not ambiguous at all. You can't do it.

Here's the relevant text.

PHB, page 164 under under the multiclassing rules:

Spells Known and Prepared
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

Then, later:
Spell Slots
<snip>
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower level spells.

When determining your spells known, you are a level 6 Bard. How many slots you have is irrelevant. So even with Magical Secrets, you can use that feature to learn any spell of 3rd level or lower, just like a single-classed Bard would be able to.

While I agree with your conclusion, the situation is significantly more complicated than you suggest.

In particular, the rules on page 164 under "Class Features" list four specific class features those rules apply to. "Magical Secrets" is not one of those class features. Accordingly, the limitations described there don't by their own terms help resolve the OP's question.

Nevertheless, I'd argue that your conclusion is correct due to two features of the "Magical Secrets" class feature:

1) It explicitly mandates that level of the chosen spell "must be a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table".

From a RAW sense, the Bard table is replaced by the multiclass spell table only for determining your spell slots--it doesn't actually replace the Bard table. Accordingly, the reference in Magical Secrets to the Bard table is not automatically passed on to the multiclass table.

From a RAI sense, the text of Magical Secrets appears to be trying to draw a direct comparison between the spells learned via Spellcasting and the spells learned via Magical Secrets.

2) "The chosen spells... are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table."

This text reinforces the above comparison, strongly suggesting that, RAI, the same limitations apply to the spells known from each feature. It is thus reasonable to apply the rules on page 164, even if they cannot apply by RAW.

So, RAW and RAI both say (albeit for different reasons) that you can't use the multiclass spell table to determine the level limit for spells learned via the Magical Secrets class feature.

(On a side note, while I believe that this and other multiclass spellcaster questions can ultimately be answered non-ambiguously, the amount of confusion the rules produce is highly problematic.)

[calebrus]

While I agree with your conclusion, the situation is significantly more complicated than you suggest.

No, it really isn't.
You just wrote almost twenty lines of text trying to make it appear more complicated than that. Nothing in those twenty or so lines changed anything, nor did it make anything more complicated than that, and you ultimately agree with what I've said.
I answered this question the other day right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399974-Cross-Class-Spells) regarding an even more complicated build.
It isn't any more complicated than that.

[Galen]

I agree, the situation is very simple. The multiclass thingie only applies for determining how many spell slots of each level you have. It doesn't apply for learning spells, preparing spells, scribing spells, or anything else really.

[Xetheral]

No, it really isn't.
You just wrote almost twenty lines of text trying to make it appear more complicated than that. Nothing in those twenty or so lines changed anything, nor did it make anything more complicated than that, and you ultimately agree with what I've said.
I answered this question the other day right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399974-Cross-Class-Spells) regarding an even more complicated build.
It isn't any more complicated than that.

I felt your explanation missed the very important fact that, RAW, the rules on page 164 don't apply to the Magical Secrets class feature. I highlighted both a different RAW reason to reach the same conclusion you did, as well as a RAI reason to apply the rules on page 164 anyway.

This explanation is more complicated than the apparently cut-and-dried explanation you offered which didn't address the limiting text on page 164, nor the specific text of the class feature the OP asked about.

The complication of the build in question isn't important. What matters is that the interaction of the Magical Secrets class feature, the Spellcasting class feature, and the page 164 multiclass rules for the Spellcasting class feature is itself complicated, yet necessary to untangle to answer the OP's question.

[calebrus]

I felt your explanation missed the very important fact that, RAW, the rules on page 164 don't apply to the Magical Secrets class feature. I highlighted both a different RAW reason to reach the same conclusion you did, as well as a RAI reason to apply the rules on page 164 anyway.

This explanation is more complicated than the apparently cut-and-dried explanation you offered which didn't address the limiting text on page 164, nor the specific text of the class feature the OP asked about.

The complication of the build in question isn't important. What matters is that the interaction of the Magical Secrets class feature, the Spellcasting class feature, and the page 164 multiclass rules for the Spellcasting class feature is itself complicated, yet necessary to untangle to answer the OP's question.

Oh, I see.
You're saying that the wording of Magical Secrets doesn't change a single thing about what I said, meaning this is no more complicated than put forth.
I understand now. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Chronos]

Quoth Xetheral:

(On a side note, while I believe that this and other multiclass spellcaster questions can ultimately be answered non-ambiguously, the amount of confusion the rules produce is highly problematic.)
Another example of this is the cantrip scaling rules. They scale with your total level, but it's very difficult to determine that from the rules.