Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon

[Finieous]

Does Divine Strike work with spiritual weapon attacks?

* Divine Strike reads: "...when you hit a creature with a weapon attack."

* Spiritual weapon reads: "...you create a floating, spectral weapon..." However, you make a "melee spell attack" to attack with the spiritual weapon. I can't find any reference to a "melee weapon attack," which might suggest they were different categories for the purposes of Divine Strike. There are "melee attacks" and "ranged attacks," and "melee spell attacks" and "ranged spell attacks," but I can't find a "weapon attack."

So...by plain text and fluff, it seems like they should work together, but is there some reason buried in the rules for attack classifications why they don't?

[calebrus]

Weapon attacks and spell attacks are different.
Melee attacks and ranged attacks are weapon attacks. Spell attacks are not.
Divine Strike doesn't apply to the attacks that a Spiritual Weapon makes.

[jkat718]

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that the phrase "melee or ranged attack" appears in under the Attack action, whereas the Cast a Spell action would be used for Spiritual Weapon. Also, the spell specifies a spell attack, and the feature specifies a weapon attack, which are (I think) always separate things.

[Finieous]

Weapon attacks and spell attacks are different.
Melee attacks and ranged attacks are weapon attacks. Spell attacks are not.


Can you give me a page reference for this. I'd really appreciate it! I can't find anywhere that "weapon attack" is either defined or distinguished from spell attacks. I know it's a pain to ask you to look up the ref, but I'd be really grateful for the help.


The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that the phrase "melee or ranged attack" appears in under the Attack action, whereas the Cast a Spell action would be used for Spiritual Weapon. Also, the spell specifies a spell attack, and the feature specifies a weapon attack, which are (I think) always separate things.

I don't think so: Spell attacks appear with melee and ranged attacks under Making an Attack, and you don't have to take the Attack action to make an attack. Furthermore, you use the Cast a Spell action to cast spiritual weapon, but you don't use the Cast a Spell action to attack with it.

[calebrus]

If you want another d8 on your spiritual weapon attacks, you cast it in an higher level slot.
Divine Strike only applies to melee attacks that you personally make. If your Spiritual Weapon makes that attack, you are not attacking, your Spiritual Weapon is.

[JNAProductions]

To give the stock answer: Ask your DM. That's the most important bit.

[jkat718]

I don't think so: Spell attacks appear with melee and ranged attacks under Making an Attack, and you don't have to take the Attack action to make an attack. Furthermore, you use the Cast a Spell action to cast spiritual weapon, but you don't use the Cast a Spell action to attack with it.

Ah, you're right. Under the Attack Rolls header in Casting a Spell, they even call out chapter 9. My bad. But calebrus is still right. You are not making the attack, and it is a spell attack, not a weapon attack. Sorry, but no combo there.

[Finieous]

If you want another d8 on your spiritual weapon attacks, you cast it in an higher level slot.
Divine Strike only applies to melee attacks that you personally make. If your Spiritual Weapon makes that attack, you are not attacking, your Spiritual Weapon is.

Come on, dude. It says, "...you can make melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon." It says, "As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack." Nowhere does it say "you are not attacking" or "the spiritual weapon makes that attack."

But let's not argue pointlessly. I really would appreciate the rules cite.

[calebrus]

Come on, dude. It says, "...you can make melee spell attack

Yes, it does say that.
It does not say "...you can make melee weapon attack" and therefore you cannot gain the extra d8 from Divine Strike with it.
Divine Strike only applies to attacks that you personally make with a weapon held in your hand (or unarmed).
Are you attacking with a spell?
Yes?
Then you are not making a weapon attack.

[Finieous]

Yes, it does say that.
It does not say "...you can make melee weapon attack" and therefore you cannot gain the extra d8 from Divine Strike with it.
Divine Strike only applies to attacks that you personally make with a weapon held in your hand (or unarmed).
Are you attacking with a spell?
Yes?
Then you are not making a weapon attack.

You're not going to give me the cite, are you?

Again: As far as I can tell, "weapon attack" is not a defined rules term. "Melee attack" is a defined rules term, and therefore I can find where the PHB says, "A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon...A few spells also involve making a melee attack." If "weapon attack" is not a defined rules term, then why would attacking with a spectral weapon be different from attacking with a physical one? Nowhere does Divine Strike say, "attacks that you personally make with a weapon held in your hand." Even better, you seem to be fine if an unarmed attack is a "weapon attack," but an attack with a SPIRITUAL WEAPON is not!

This could all be cleared up quickly if you'd give me the cite.

[JNAProductions]

I believe melee means adjacent to you, not made with a weapon.

If you throw a spear, it is a ranged attack. Likewise, attacking with a mace at 50' is ranged.

Melee spells are things like Inflict Wounds, that need an attack roll to hit and are touch range.

Also, it's not like this is a breaker combo or anything. If you can't do it, you lose d8 damage a turn on your spell, which you can still get through melee. Not a big loss.

[Finieous]

I believe melee means adjacent to you, not made with a weapon.

If you throw a spear, it is a ranged attack. Likewise, attacking with a mace at 50' is ranged.

Melee spells are things like Inflict Wounds, that need an attack roll to hit and are touch range.

Also, it's not like this is a breaker combo or anything. If you can't do it, you lose d8 damage a turn on your spell, which you can still get through melee. Not a big loss.

I agree with all that, but it doesn't answer my question. :smallwink:

[calebrus]

This could all be cleared up quickly if you'd give me the cite.

Not everything needs a citation.
Some things are common sense.

Example:
A weapon attack roll is gained by taking the Attack action. A spell attack roll is gained by taking the Cast a Spell action. Any attacks made by the spell that are called "spell attacks" are not weapon attacks.

[JNAProductions]

Does Divine Strike work with spiritual weapon attacks?

Unless you are holding your spiritual weapon, no. If you agreed with what I said, there's your answer right there.

[Finieous]

Not everything needs a citation.
Some things are common sense.

Example:
A weapon attack roll is gained by taking the Attack action. A spell attack roll is gained by taking the Cast a Spell action. Any attacks made by the spell that are called "spell attacks" are not weapon attacks.

But we know this isn't true. Whether Divine Strike works with it or not, attacking with spiritual weapon does not require the Cast a Spell action, and yet by attacking with spiritual weapon, I gain a spell attack roll.


Unless you are holding your spiritual weapon, no. If you agreed with what I said, there's your answer right there.

You said "I believe melee means within 5 feet of you," which is true in general. However, spiritual weapon explicitly allows you to make a melee attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon -- again, whether or not it works with Divine Strike.

ETA: I reread what you wrote more closely. I don't agree after all. Attacks with spiritual weapon are explicitly melee attacks, not ranged attacks. My bad.

[JNAProductions]

It's melee to the enemy. But not melee to you. You aren't involved in that brawl.

[calebrus]

Bottom line is that you're trying to game the system to get an extra d8 damage on your turn.

The bonus action attack granted by the spell is specifically called a spell attack. You are trying to use a feature which requires a weapon attack.
Those two things don't gel, and you're trying to distort legalese to find a loophole to exploit it.

[Finieous]

It's melee to the enemy. But not melee to you. You aren't involved in that brawl.

What in the world? It states explicitly that you make a melee attack!

Dang, sorry I asked. :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

*Throws a waffle at you* Waffler! Don't vote for Finieous! :P

In seriousness, listen to Calebrus. This is pretty clear RACS, at least form a gamist perspective. If you really need that extra d8, talk to your DM about how it makes sense via fluff, but if you need that edge so desperately, perhaps ask your DM to not be so murderous instead.

Edit: Divine Strike isn't melee only. It works on ranged attacks.

However, it has to be your weapon, with the clear implication it's being wielded by you. So by that interpretation, no. No you can't.

Strict RAW, however, I guess it works. But strict RAW is like playing a videogame. I came to TTRPGs to avoid that.

[Finieous]

Bottom line is that you're trying to game the system to get an extra d8 damage on your turn.


No, I'm really not, which is why this is so funny. I was just trying to determine whether a melee attack with a cleric's spiritual weapon count as a "weapon attack" for the purposes of his Divine Strike ability. Read that sentence slowly. LOL.

I probably have less tolerance for loopholes and cheese than most in here. You could VERY well be right. I just can't find a reference to "weapon attack" in the rules that defines it as a game term. If it's not a defined game term, then an attack with a spiritual weapon is a weapon attack, by the rules of plain English.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, you kind of are. Spiritual Weapon already has a mechanism for gaining extra d8s. You're attempting to effectively cast it at a higher spell slot without expending that spell slot by abusing RAW text.

It doesn't matter that the literality supports you. That's gaming the system.

Edit: And maybe that's the norm at your table. If you're all powergamers, then that's fine and use the crap out of this. But RACS, you're cheating.

[Finieous]

Yeah, you kind of are. Spiritual Weapon already has a mechanism for gaining extra d8s. You're attempting to effectively cast it at a higher spell slot without expending that spell slot by abusing RAW text.

It doesn't matter that the literality supports you. That's gaming the system.

Edit: And maybe that's the norm at your table. If you're all powergamers, then that's fine and use the crap out of this. But RACS, you're cheating.

OMG. We're not power-gamers, as it happens, not that it should matter. I'm just trying to figure out what the rules say, rather than your impressions of them. I have no idea what "RACS" means, but I'm rather bummed to learn I'm cheating. :smallfrown:

[JNAProductions]

Rules As Common Sense. In this case, an ability designed to help weapon using Clerics should not turbocharge a spell for caster Clerics.

And again-acording to RAW, this will work. Question answered, be done. Have fun playing computer code TTRPG.

[Finieous]

Rules As Common Sense. In this case, an ability designed to help weapon using Clerics should not turbocharge a spell for caster Clerics.

And again-acording to RAW, this will work. Question answered, be done. Have fun playing computer code TTRPG.

Well, pure caster clerics don't get the ability, so I don't think that helps. However, you're still wrong because I just found this buried in "Modifiers to the Roll":

"The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule."

That's close enough to a rules definition of "weapon attack" that I'm satisfied. RAW, it shouldn't work and you should throw me another waffle.

[JNAProductions]

*Throws waffle*

Glad we could help?

Well, as long as you got your issue settled, some good came of this thread. Cookies for everyone. *Sticks out a platter of cookies for Finieous, calebrus, jkat, and myself.*

[Finieous]

*Throws waffle*

Glad we could help?


Yes! You kept me engaged long enough to find an actual rule, though you nearly drove me mad in the process! I asked Crawford and Mearls, so I'll update if they contradict us. :smallbiggrin:



Well, as long as you got your issue settled, some good came of this thread. Cookies for everyone. *Sticks out a platter of cookies for Finieous, calebrus, jkat, and myself.*

Cookies and waffles, mmm...

[JNAProductions]

You know, that's apparently something I'm very good at. I can't make a good idea to save my life, but I can say "No, that's wrong" long enough and hard enough to make other people's good ideas come to fruition best they can.

See my hundred-odd posts on the ToME forums for the Necromancer remake. All about "No, that idea is terrible, fix it" or "That talent belongs in another skill tree".

[MeeposFire]

The fact that it is called a weapon as a description matters not because it is said in the description specifically that it is a melee spell attack which is defined in the rules. Melee weapon attacks are also defined in the book and it does not fit them and it is described as being different from melee spell attacks. The two types are written in a contradictory manner so unless something specifically calls out that it can combine the two I do not see that it can be both at the same time. The word weapon on its own does not make it a weapon attack. Abilities that say you make a weapon attack make it so.



That being said is it that big of a deal? Not as much as you might think the reason being that spiritual weapon is a bonus action spell. This means that a caster would either have to cast a cantrip or no other spells that turn. For a caster cleric they would cast a cantrip but they would lack divine strike. A weapon using cleric would likely not use a cantrip which means they are most likely going to hit something with a weapon and would have had a shot at getting divine strike that round anyway. You could have gotten that extra chance using a staff handxbow or two weapon fighting depending on your investment so while this is certainly a boost it is not that far off what you otherwise could do.

I will also grant that the cleric does not need the boost really.

[Dark Tira]

Wow this thread is a mess. RAW on this is simple: attacks are what they say they are. A melee spell attack does not qualify for anything that boosts melee weapon attacks because it is not a weapon attack. For attack boosts a melee spell attack can get: 1. unqualified attack boosts, 2. melee attack boosts, 3. spell attack boosts, and 4. melee spell attack boosts. It's really not complicated.