What do you think of these epic levels ideas?

[supergoji18]

While we are still a long way from getting the Epic Level handbook for 5e, I've been thinking about some interesting ideas for a unique experience at epic levels. It is unlikely that they will be implemented, but I still feel like posting the ideas here because I would like to see what everyone's opinions of them are. So without further ado, here are my 2 ideas/speculations for Epic Levels in 5e.

1. Epic Races
I don't think something like this has ever been done before in D&D. The basic premise is that once a character reaches level 20, he or she will ascend to a whole new level of power for his or her race. They gain new benefits and special abilities based on their race and subrace, and become about 150% more awesome in the process. Here are some examples of epic races I thought of.

Dwarven Defenders: Rather than being a class like before, Dwarven Defenders would be the pinacle of power that a Dwarf can reach. Their strength of both body and their stubbornness are only further enhanced, while they gain a great deal of resistance to many effects (example: they are so stubborn that they cannot be charmed anymore).
Elf-Lord: These are the elves take strait out of Lord of the Rings, complete with all of the badass physical capabilities, magical powers, perfect health and near divine level of insight.
Superhuman: Few humans ever reach this level of power, but those that do are most certain to become the subject of at least one Epic. The versatility and adaptability of humans only increases here, as do their martial and magical powers.
Halfling Hero: Just because they are vertically challenged doesnt mean they can't become legendary heroes of yore. Halflings who have lived long enough and become this powerful are as giants among the Halfling communities (metaphorically speaking of course). Their cunning and natural stealth only get better from here, and they may pick up some other tricks too.

Those are just a few of the races, but I think you get the general idea.

2. Epic Classes
If a character has reached 20th level in a class, they are eligible for the "epic" variant of the class. These epic classes provide more powerful abilities and are just plain awesome. Here are a few examples:

Pontificate: Clerics who have served their god faithfully and actively are awarded a high position in that gods eyes. These clerics stand out from the masses of followers as true embodiments of what that god stands for. The relationship between the Pontificate and his or her god is much more personal than that of any other cleric. Some gods will even converse directly with their Pontificate and offer them much more direct help in their adventures.
War Hero: Fighters have been through a lot in their lifetimes, more so than many others would ever be able to handle. Yet despite all of the meat-shielding and "hitting things harder," the Fighter's are resilient to the very end. Ultimately it pays off, and many go down in history as legendary War Heroes who were more than just mere mortals. Their feats of strength and battle prowess are recording in song and legend, as they carve their way through armies of otherworldly dangers.
Shadowdancer: Stories tell of masters of stealth and subterfuge, whose powers were almost supernatural in origin. Such fearsome foes rarely show their faces to the world, and never let any know theirs true names. The only thing they leave behind to recognize them is a signature mark, such as a card or a sign, to mock those who were not skilled enough to catch them. These invisible thieves and shadowy assassins are known by one name only: Shadowdancers.
Archmage: Years of study of the arcane arts combined with the experience from adventures into the world allow a wizard to hone their powers to unimaginable levels. Respected and feared by all for their earthshaking power, these Archmages are the undisputed masters of arcane knowledge. Every Archmage has learned enough about magic in order to be able to manipulate the power and effect of spells, and some are even able to create entirely news spells.

Again, these are only a few examples, but they should get the idea across.

What do you think? Would you like to see something like this implemented? Do you think it could work without completely derailing the balance of the game?

[FightStyles]

I'll start out and say that these sound like cool RP ideas. However, they don't really "derail" anything because you're not really giving them anything. The DMG has epic boons which are for lvl 20 PCs that coincide with your class descriptions of epicness. (Note: Your description of the cleric more resembles one of its capstones I believe.) You did get kind of close with the dwarf defender, but the idea of epic boons because of your race is a pretty neat idea.

[supergoji18]

I'll start out and say that these sound like cool RP ideas. However, they don't really "derail" anything because you're not really giving them anything. The DMG has epic boons which are for lvl 20 PCs that coincide with your class descriptions of epicness. (Note: Your description of the cleric more resembles one of its capstones I believe.) You did get kind of close with the dwarf defender, but the idea of epic boons because of your race is a pretty neat idea.

I didn't list anything specific, but I was thinking of giving the epic races and classes unique features that are not related to the epic boons. I couldn't think of anything at first, but here are some ideas I was thinking of:

High Elf Lord (in addition to base race's benefits)
Ability Score Adjustment: +2 dex, +1 Int (if the stats were already 20, they go up by the amount indicated).
Magic Resistance: High Elf Lords recieve advantage on all saving throws against Spells and other magical effects
Perfect Health: Immune to normal disease and poison, and has advantage on saving throws against magical diseases and poison.
Magic Affinity: Able to case 2 Cantrips and 1 1st level spell at will a number of times per day equal to 1 + Intelligence Modifier if positive. Spellcasting ability is Intelligence.
Elven Insight: Advantage on all Insight skill checks.

And for Archmage, here is unique abilities I think can be added:
Spell Improvment: You are able to tweak an existing spell so that its effect is more powerful (for you only). For damage dealing spells, you can add your Intelligence Modifier to the damage dealt by the spell. For Spells requiring a save, you may add your Intelligence Modifer to the save a second time, so that the formula becomes 5 + Proficiency Bonus + 2(Int Modifier). This will cost amount of experience points equal to your Int Modifier * Spell Level * Proficiency Bonus, and will cost an equal amount of gold.

The Epic Races and Classes are meant to be seperate from Epic Boons, and have unique benefits. I think Epic Boons may still be around, but perhaps changed for Epic Feats instead?

[FightStyles]

High Elf Lord (in addition to base race's benefits)
Ability Score Adjustment: +2 dex, +1 Int (if the stats were already 20, they go up by the amount indicated).
Magic Resistance: High Elf Lords recieve advantage on all saving throws against Spells and other magical effects
Perfect Health: Immune to normal disease and poison, and has advantage on saving throws against magical diseases and poison.
Magic Affinity: Able to case 2 Cantrips and 1 1st level spell at will a number of times per day equal to 1 + Intelligence Modifier if positive. Spellcasting ability is Intelligence.
Elven Insight: Advantage on all Insight skill checks.

Is this all at once? If so, not a great idea. These should be choices to choose from so it rewards the players for continuing on much like the epic boon system. Otherwise, they don't really serve much point.

As for the abilities themselves. The ability score adjustment is a bad idea in general. Magic resistance is ok for level 20. Perfect health doesn't need the advantage to saving throws due to Magic Resistance; just make it Immune to disease and poison effects and resistant to poison damage. Elven Insight is fine although expertise in Insight skill checks sound more reasonable.

Magic Affinity is sort of confusing. Are you wanting to give 3 [B]Additional[\B] spells or just give current spells more usage? Either way, Cantrips are always at will and are never limited in usage. I think you are trying to make Magic Affinity like this...
[B]Magic Affinity:[\B]Your mastery in magic training has given you an uncanny ability to memorize and use magic without expending much energy or though. You gain the following spells:

Choose 2 cantrips from the wizard spell list
Choose 1 1st-level spell from the wizard spell list to cast at will without expending a spell slot. This spell must be used as a 1st level spell.




And for Archmage, here is unique abilities I think can be added:
Spell Improvment: You are able to tweak an existing spell so that its effect is more powerful (for you only). For damage dealing spells, you can add your Intelligence Modifier to the damage dealt by the spell. For Spells requiring a save, you may add your Intelligence Modifer to the save a second time, so that the formula becomes 5 + Proficiency Bonus + 2(Int Modifier). This will cost amount of experience points equal to your Int Modifier * Spell Level * Proficiency Bonus, and will cost an equal amount of gold.

Is this in addition to class abilities? Are you allowing only certain classes to choose Archmage as a epic class?

With that being said, Spell Improvement seems ok for damage dealing spells, but adding 4 or 5 to your damage each spell at level 20 is going to be neglible at best. Your formula for save spells is weird, the save is usually [B]8[\B]+Prof. Bonus+Ability Mod. So you effectively reduce the save by 3 and then add on another ability mod of +4 or +5. Inherentily, adding on about +2 or +3 to the save. This is still a big deal though. Lastly, I think you meant to multiply the experience and gold by at least 1000. Otherwise, this only costs at roughly max 5(ability mod)*9(spell level)*6(level 20 prof bonus) = [B]270xp & 270gold[\B]. That is literally nothing compared to your 330,000xp you have at level 20. If you do create something that would work, this still should be something like an epic boon as that is a system to keep players going once they get to level 20.

tldr; Racial bonuses should be given out like epic boons, and power adjustments should be offered at a similar level to that of the epic boons.

[supergoji18]

Is this all at once? If so, not a great idea. These should be choices to choose from so it rewards the players for continuing on much like the epic boon system. Otherwise, they don't really serve much point.

As for the abilities themselves. The ability score adjustment is a bad idea in general. Magic resistance is ok for level 20. Perfect health doesn't need the advantage to saving throws due to Magic Resistance; just make it Immune to disease and poison effects and resistant to poison damage. Elven Insight is fine although expertise in Insight skill checks sound more reasonable.

Magic Affinity is sort of confusing. Are you wanting to give 3 [B]Additional[\B] spells or just give current spells more usage? Either way, Cantrips are always at will and are never limited in usage. I think you are trying to make Magic Affinity like this...
[B]Magic Affinity:[\B]Your mastery in magic training has given you an uncanny ability to memorize and use magic without expending much energy or though. You gain the following spells:

Choose 2 cantrips from the wizard spell list
Choose 1 1st-level spell from the wizard spell list to cast at will without expending a spell slot. This spell must be used as a 1st level spell.





Is this in addition to class abilities? Are you allowing only certain classes to choose Archmage as a epic class?

With that being said, Spell Improvement seems ok for damage dealing spells, but adding 4 or 5 to your damage each spell at level 20 is going to be neglible at best. Your formula for save spells is weird, the save is usually [B]8[\B]+Prof. Bonus+Ability Mod. So you effectively reduce the save by 3 and then add on another ability mod of +4 or +5. Inherentily, adding on about +2 or +3 to the save. This is still a big deal though. Lastly, I think you meant to multiply the experience and gold by at least 1000. Otherwise, this only costs at roughly max 5(ability mod)*9(spell level)*6(level 20 prof bonus) = [B]270xp & 270gold[\B]. That is literally nothing compared to your 330,000xp you have at level 20. If you do create something that would work, this still should be something like an epic boon as that is a system to keep players going once they get to level 20.

tldr; Racial bonuses should be given out like epic boons, and power adjustments should be offered at a similar level to that of the epic boons.
I never really balanced these out properly since these were just come up with on the fly as examples. I am just trying to get my idea across.

But building on from what you said, I actually think the progressive ability gain is a good idea. Not only does it make sense RP wise, it also encourages players to keep playing.

P.S. I thought spell save DC was 5 + Proficiency Bonus + Spellcasting Modifer, not 8. So replace the 5 with the 8 and you have the formula that should be implemented.