Calculating ECL/Skill Points from ECL

[firruna]

Hello Playgrounders,

I'm running a game for some friends starting at level 15. One of them is running a race with level adjustment +5 and 11 monster levels.

Question 1: Would his starting level before class levels be 5, 11 or 16?

Question 2: After class levels, to bring him to 15 total, what are his max ranks in a class skill?

Thanks for any clarification.

[tyckspoon]

Hello Playgrounders,

I'm running a game for some friends starting at level 15. One of them is running a race with level adjustment +5 and 11 monster levels.

Question 1: Would his starting level before class levels be 5, 11 or 16?

Question 2: After class levels, to bring him to 15 total, what are his max ranks in a class skill?

Thanks for any clarification.

..dangit, who was it with the Guide to Playing Monsters in his sig? I think you probably need to read it..

Offical RAW: His ECL, before any class levels whatsoever, is 16. The character would be unsuitable to start in your game as currently described because he is too high-level. He would require the XP to level and receive XP and treasure as a level 16 character. (ECL is composed of your Hit Dice plus your Level Adjustment. Hit Dice can be racial hit dice or normal class levels, Level Adjustment is just 'fake' levels that don't count for much of anything except making you suck.)

He would have 11 actual Hit Dice (the 'monster levels'), which are what determine his max skill ranks as well as vulnerability to effects that care about HD (so, for example, a level 16 caster would wreck his day with a Blasphemy/Holy Word/etc where a character with 16 real Hit Dice wouldn't care so much.) His 'class' skills, such as they are, would be whatever the class skills for his monster type are. His max ranks in those skills would be 14.

[firruna]

..dangit, who was it with the Guide to Playing Monsters in his sig? I think you probably need to read it..

Offical RAW: His ECL, before any class levels whatsoever, is 16. The character would be unsuitable to start in your game as currently described because he is too high-level.

Thanks for the fast replay, good to know the rules for that.
Although, it sucks he can't use the character, he wrote the whole this up, but for realizing the skills looked wrong...

[Crake]

..dangit, who was it with the Guide to Playing Monsters in his sig? I think you probably need to read it..

I believe it was Ur-Priest, but yeah, pretty much everything you said.

[Deadline]

Thanks for the fast replay, good to know the rules for that.
Although, it sucks he can't use the character, he wrote the whole this up, but for realizing the skills looked wrong...

You could allow him to use the LA buy off rules in UA, but I'm not sure he'd be able to even buy one of those levels off. What monster race is he using? Perhaps we can suggest a lower ECL substitute that could work just as well?

[LoyalPaladin]

You could also offer to let him drop his monster HD... it's always rough when someone wants to play a race really bad, but the LA is just so high. Not that I know anyone who wants to play a Solar...

[Fouredged Sword]

Hello Playgrounders,

I'm running a game for some friends starting at level 15. One of them is running a race with level adjustment +5 and 11 monster levels.

Question 1: Would his starting level before class levels be 5, 11 or 16?

Question 2: After class levels, to bring him to 15 total, what are his max ranks in a class skill?

Thanks for any clarification.

Ok, you have three things her. You have the character's ECL, his LEVEL and his LA. Your ECL is only used when counting how much exp is needed to get to your next level and how much exp you get from facing an encounter of a given CR. He would have an ECL of 16, so he "Should" fit in a party of level 16 characters (he won't).

Your LEVEL determines your max ranks and feats and all other stuff. This is ALWAYS your HD, so in this case 11. He can get 11+3 ranks in any class skill for his race.

Your ECL = your LEVEL + your LA.

[firruna]

You could allow him to use the LA buy off rules in UA, but I'm not sure he'd be able to even buy one of those levels off.

I am not familiar with the LA buy off rules, but I will go take a look at them now.


What monster race is he using? Perhaps we can suggest a lower ECL substitute that could work just as well?

He wanted to run a Naztharune Rakshasa from MM3.

[firruna]

Ok, you have three things her. You have the character's ECL, his LEVEL and his LA. Your ECL is only used when counting how much exp is needed to get to your next level and how much exp you get from facing an encounter of a given CR. He would have an ECL of 16, so he "Should" fit in a party of level 16 characters (he won't).

Your LEVEL determines your max ranks and feats and all other stuff. This is ALWAYS your HD, so in this case 11. He can get 11+3 ranks in any class skill for his race.

Your ECL = your LEVEL + your LA.

Alright, thanks for laying it out for me, I think I understand how it works now.

[LoyalPaladin]

I am not familiar with the LA buy off rules, but I will go take a look at them now.
Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) Its a big chunk of rules to swallow, but it makes sense.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As requested, Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

You may also want Monstrous Conundrums (Part One) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060404a), Monstrous Conundrums (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a), and Monstrous Conundrums (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060418a).

[firruna]

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) Its a big chunk of rules to swallow, but it makes sense.

Cool, thanks for the link. Looks like your guess was right, he won't be able to use it for starting the character, but I'm sure someone from this group will want to use it when we start playing.

[firruna]

As requested, Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

You may also want Monstrous Conundrums (Part One) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060404a), Monstrous Conundrums (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a), and Monstrous Conundrums (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060418a).

Thanks. I didn't think anyone would end up finding that.
Will read it when I have a little bit fo time.

[OldTrees1]

He wanted to run a Naztharune Rakshasa from MM3.

The Naztharune Rakshasa in the Monster Manuel III has an ECL of 16 (11HD + 5LA) so it has max ranks of 14(HD+3) for class skills.

However it does not get much that a Rogue 6 / Swordsage 1 / Shadowdancer 1 does not get as well (using the Shadow Jaunt maneuver to mimic the At Will Shadow Jump). So I do not think the N-Rakshasa deserves to be laden with 11RHD and +5 LA.

This forum has made good homebrew adaptations of monsters in the past. One such archive thread had this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9257676&postcount=178) ECL 11 (11RHD, +0LA) version of the N-Rakshasa. I personally think it is much more balanced without removing any of the fun. However there is also some peer review in the comments of the thread.

[firruna]

The Naztharune Rakshasa in the Monster Manuel III has an ECL of 16 (11HD + 5LA) so it has max ranks of 14(HD+3) for class skills.

However it does not get much that a Rogue 6 / Swordsage 1 / Shadowdancer 1 does not get as well (using the Shadow Jaunt maneuver to mimic the At Will Shadow Jump). So I do not think the N-Rakshasa deserves to be laden with 11RHD and +5 LA.

This forum has made good homebrew adaptations of monsters in the past. One such archive thread had this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9257676&postcount=178) ECL 11 (11RHD, +0LA) version of the N-Rakshasa. I personally think it is much more balanced without removing any of the fun. However there is also some peer review in the comments of the thread.

Thanks.
My player just decided to completely rebuild the character as something completely different.

[OldTrees1]

Thanks.
My player just decided to completely rebuild the character as something completely different.

You're welcome.

That thread I linked contains about a hundred adapted races. Odds are that it will be useful sometime in the future.

[Gegge]

Hello

I read this post, and i totaly agree with the answere people are giving. But, there hase to be a but here. I have read the "races of stone" book and have som folloe up questionsbon the max skill on a ECL.

If you read about one of the prestige classes named "stonedeath assassin", you see an example made in the end of the class page. The one thing that bother the hell out of me is this. The requirements for this class is Skills: 8 ranks in hide and move silently. Calculated to me a lvl 5 class, with maxed out skill rank in thouse, but the example is a lvl 4 hobgoblin rogue.

So i have only 2 possible answheres for that.
The forst is simple, ecl count for max skill.
The secound is that the book has made a misstake.

[OldTrees1]

NPCs not qualifying for prerequisites is a very common typo.

HD of all kinds count for max ranks but LA does not count for max ranks
ECL = HD + LA