DM Help What do you do when your players do something suicidal? [Archive]

Ephemeral_Being

2015-02-25, 01:19 AM

This may be a strange question, but I'm actually at a loss and I'd like some advice.

I have a group of VERY new players (we're talking first campaign ever, for most of them) in the middle of hunting down a cult of wizards. They've been doing fairly well so far. After about... six weeks of playing they've found a couple of locations that the wizards might be hiding out, know generally what these wizards might be looking for, and trying to do, and are really starting to get into the game. And, last week, they finally took the initiative. They stopped doing the plotlines that I basically just put in front of them, and came up with their own plan to draw out the cult. They had an item they knew that the cult wanted, they knew where there was a spy, and that he would relay the information about where they would be if they "accidentally" let it slip.

Here's the problem. The leaders of this cult are WAY more powerful than they currently can handle. I went ahead and statted all of them out ahead of time, because it let me build wizards that were "in-line" with the leaders. Different sects having different focuses of magic. It was all going great. Until now. Because the Wizard they're trying to provoke is capable of literally blowing them all apart with one attack. She's 12th level, with a very powerful artifact from Dragon Magazine. And she REALLY wants this item.

So. I want them to keep coming up with plans. It's great. When the players start driving the campaign, then they get more involved in it. But at the same time. This was SO stupid. So, SO stupid. And it's not like they don't know there are incredibly powerful wizards running this cult. He's been robbing entire wagon-loads of supplies. He infected an entire town with a plague. At this point, they've only been fighting low-level sorcs. So I could see MAYBE not knowing what they were getting into. But this is a big deal. This is the break that the cult has been waiting 80+ years for. The players know how important this item (it's a key) is. They set this whole scenario DEPENDING on that, hoping someone with information would show up that they can capture, and interrogate. This is the plan.

Now, I don't know if I'm missing something here. I might be. There's a chance they spent the week between sessions coming up with an ambush, and are going to blow me away. But I don't think so. I honestly think they're just planning on riding out of town, getting ambushed, and fighting their way out. Which... is a horrible idea.

And that leads me back to my original question; What do you do when your players do something suicidal? Here's what I've come up with.

Kil them. Teach them a lesson. A SHORT lesson, because they probably won't last more than two rounds. I'm not kidding. The logical choice for the cult is to just spam "Circle of Death." Make a Fortitude Save, or die. It makes sure the key isn't destroyed, and they can do it from way above.
Immobilize them. Take the Key. Leave. This is unlike the cult, personality-wise, and doesn't make that much sense. The party keeps messing up their plans. Killing them is just smart.
Kill them, then revive them at the friendly neighborhood church. Which... I don't want to do. Because they were already making preparations in-case one of the party died, and stockpiling gold for that eventuality. Which was really smart. Doing this would sort of... invalidate that plan.
Kill them. Pull out my Ghostwalk book, and let them play ghosts. But I don't know if that's a valid solution, either. Why should THEY get to be ghosts, when almost no one else does?
Have someone come and save the day. Which... I am entirely 100% opposed to. I don't fudge rolls. I don't save the party. I don't try to kill them, either. I build realistic world events, and they can do whatever they want with them. I told them that the first day we met, and I mean to abide by it.

But I don't like any of those ideas. Of them, I'm leaning towards 4, and 1. In that order. But I don't want to force everyone to play Ghosts. And... I think that a TPK so early would sour them on the entire experience of tabletop gaming. Which I really don't want to do.

Can someone here help me see what I'm missing? There has to be another way. Or, a way to frame the narrative in a fashion that it would be palatable to my party. I guess I'm just looking for some advice. I spent nearly a week on this, and haven't gotten anywhere. So, now I'm here. Help? Please?

Pinkie Pyro

2015-02-25, 01:22 AM

Make them roll int/wis checks to see if any of their characters realize how bad the plan/action is?

Ilorin Lorati

2015-02-25, 01:25 AM

If the PCs are suicidal, they should be punished for their actions - but not without fair warning. Give the players as many hints are you can without directly saying "If you do this, you will die."

Ephemeral_Being

2015-02-25, 01:31 AM

If the PCs are suicidal, they should be punished for their actions - but not without fair warning. Give the players as many hints are you can without directly saying "If you do this, you will die."

I did. I spent an HOUR while they came up with this plan both providing them with alternative ideas, and suggesting how to make this one better. They just ignored me. I couldn't talk them out of it. They wanted answers, and got obsessed with this plan. And, I wasn't going to tell them "No, you can't do it." Because that's just not how I run games. I told them, you can TRY anything, but you have to deal with the consequences.

Basically. I'm looking for a "consequence" that is both believable, and not make my friends chuck books at my face.

Baroknik

2015-02-25, 01:35 AM

I say go for a variation of #3...
Kill them and have them revived as Emancipated Spawns or Awakened Undead in the aftermath of their poor decisions. One advantage is they can see the future and what happens when you play chicken with evil wizards! They were competent enough that they caused problems, so the necromantic sect of the cult decided to put them to good use as a "reward" for bringing forward the key.

Or have them come back as revenants or another vengeance seeking undead -- even just the ghost template (which I recommend over ghostwalk, actually -- from my experience, GW ends up not playing that well at the table).

Edit: because cellphone autocorrect is OP

P.F.

2015-02-25, 02:02 AM

Ketiara

2015-02-25, 02:06 AM

You could have on of the bbg's protégés or even his kid or something try and fetch the key before the bbg.
The reason this lesser caster wants the item is to gain favor or something.

If it's a relative to the bbg and if your party kills him then it will only enrage the bbg further. And you could have a chace session where the bbg tries to capture the party in order to torture them and turn them into "Reek-like" (GoT) creatures.
Hope I make sense and sorry for the poor English (it's not my native language).
Edit: damn I was sorta ninjaed by P.F :D

Barstro

2015-02-25, 02:06 AM

Make them roll int/wis checks to see if any of their characters realize how bad the plan/action is? Emphasis added

I have never cared for this route. Why do players roll to see what the PCs know? This can too easily lead to metagaming or at least slowing things down. The DM is in the better position to know what the PCs should consider important or what basic knowledge they should have. If rolls are low, just remind them of the horrible things that were done and how powerful the person must be to have done that. If rolls are high, give more details; signs of particular schools of magic, certain magic objects, overwhelming sense that their skin will be boiled and their families turned into pudding.

Remind the Players of all that the BBEG has done. Point out that the PCs are aware that this means he can easily wipe out the group in a single round. Inform the Players that the point of the game is not necessarily to find BBEG right away and fight (a beat cop with a revolver does not simply storm into an arms dealer's hideout).

Your players are acting exactly how new players (or even seasoned ones) generally act. They found what the believe the end game to be and are trying to move the story along.

DM bs to save the party is annoying. PCs dying because they entered a fight they couldn't possibly win but thought they could is worse. TELL them they cannot win and provide options.

Ephemeral_Being

2015-02-25, 02:27 AM

I have never cared for this route. Why do players roll to see what the PCs know? This can too easily lead to metagaming or at least slowing things down. The DM is in the better position to know what the PCs should consider important or what basic knowledge they should have. If rolls are low, just remind them of the horrible things that were done and how powerful the person must be to have done that. If rolls are high, give more details; signs of particular schools of magic, certain magic objects, overwhelming sense that their skin will be boiled and their families turned into pudding.

I've actually done that before, in this campaign. Generally for stuff like "Would I die if I jumped off this wall?" Make in INT check, if you can beat a 10 then you get the right answer. But only for things where the abstraction of the rules has led to a question of whether something is feasible. Never for if a PLAN is stupid. Is that normal behavior? I've played a couple campaigns, and run a couple, and that's how I've always seen it done. If not, someone please tell me.

Remind the Players of all that the BBEG has done. Point out that the PCs are aware that this means he can easily wipe out the group in a single round. Inform the Players that the point of the game is not necessarily to find BBEG right away and fight (a beat cop with a revolver does not simply storm into an arms dealer's hideout).

Your players are acting exactly how new players (or even seasoned ones) generally act. They found what the believe the end game to be and are trying to move the story along.

I like that analogy. And I will try AGAIN to explain to them how this is not the best idea, in a non-patronizing fashion. I would still like to have a contingency for if they decide to go through with it, though. Because it would be foolish not to.

DM bs to save the party is annoying. PCs dying because they entered a fight they couldn't possibly win but thought they could is worse. TELL them they cannot win and provide options.

Okay. What options would you suggest? Get someone to accompany them, maybe? Some clerics/paladins from the church? That was one thing I was considering, but I don't know how to... implement that, into combat. Without annoying/overshadowing the party. Anything you can recommend, I'll take a look at.

You could have on of the bbg's protégés or even his kid or something try and fetch the key before the bbg.
The reason this lesser caster wants the item is to gain favor or something.

If it's a relative to the bbg and if your party kills him then it will only enrage the bbg further. And you could have a chace session where the bbg tries to capture the party in order to torture them and turn them into "Reek-like" (GoT) creatures.

I understand what you're saying, but this is THE most important break they've had in nearly a century. The ENTIRE force is coming out to capture the key. It is actually that important. The entire cult of 40ish wizards were going to show up, and go to town on the party. I just don't see how to get them out of it, short of stopping them from making it to the ambush site.

endur

2015-02-25, 02:48 AM

I have a group of VERY new players (we're talking first campaign ever, for most of them) ... After about... six weeks of playing they've found a couple of locations that the wizards might be hiding out, know generally what these wizards might be looking for, and trying to do, and are really starting to get into the game. And, last week, they finally took the initiative. They stopped doing the plotlines that I basically just put in front of them, and came up with their own plan to draw out the cult. They had an item they knew that the cult wanted, they knew where there was a spy, and that he would relay the information about where they would be if they "accidentally" let it slip...

At this point, they've only been fighting low-level sorcs. So I could see MAYBE not knowing what they were getting into. But this is a big deal. This is the break that the cult has been waiting 80+ years for...

So you have a high level character that desperately wants the item that the party has, who could one-shot the party and take their stuff ...that doesn't mean you should end your game now.

LOTR: Gollum was captured in Mordor and mentioned Baggins, Bag End, and Shire. Sauron desperately wanted the ring, but he never traveled to the Shire himself, nor did he send large forces in that direction. The dark riders went, and even they only went in minimal effort years later.

There are many other examples from fiction. Come up with a reason why BBEG delegates the task to a minion. BBEG is in the middle of a ritual and can't go anywhere right at the moment, but the time to strike is now, so LT. Flunky must capture the icon. Maybe BBEG sends Major Threat who has their own reasons for not wanting to kill the PCs.

There are tons of reasons why you should be able to keep the party alive in the context of your story.

Sure, BBEG could use Scry, Buff, Teleport to go slaughter a victim. But consistent usage of Scry, Buff, Teleport is hazardous to your health. BBEG probably didn't survive to be BBEG without paranoia and avoidance of Scry, Buff, Teleport. It is much safer to send a minion than to go in person and risk being killed by a lucky blow from a hero.

Even if BBEG does go herself to get the icon, She has to be careful in what spells she uses. She wants the item, she doesn't want to risk it being lost or stolen or damaged. She also doesn't want any of her rivals to notice her interest in it. One reason Sauron only sent the dark riders and not other large forces was to try to avoid notice by Sauruman and others who wanted the one ring. Both Sauron and Sauruman ordered the orcs to not harm any hobbits, to not steal their gear, and to bring the hobbits and their gear back to Mordor (or Orthanac). Sauron and Sauruman were terrified of anyone else finding out that the one ring was carried by a hobbit.

Be CREATIVE.

sideswipe

2015-02-25, 02:51 AM

Emphasis added

I have never cared for this route. Why do players roll to see what the PCs know? This can too easily lead to metagaming or at least slowing things down. The DM is in the better position to know what the PCs should consider important or what basic knowledge they should have. If rolls are low, just remind them of the horrible things that were done and how powerful the person must be to have done that. If rolls are high, give more details; signs of particular schools of magic, certain magic objects, overwhelming sense that their skin will be boiled and their families turned into pudding.

Remind the Players of all that the BBEG has done. Point out that the PCs are aware that this means he can easily wipe out the group in a single round. Inform the Players that the point of the game is not necessarily to find BBEG right away and fight (a beat cop with a revolver does not simply storm into an arms dealer's hideout).

Your players are acting exactly how new players (or even seasoned ones) generally act. They found what the believe the end game to be and are trying to move the story along.

DM bs to save the party is annoying. PCs dying because they entered a fight they couldn't possibly win but thought they could is worse. TELL them they cannot win and provide options.

if you are a person of average intelligence and little book learning and are playing an int 30 wizard then yes you should definitely get rolls like this. your character is smarter then Stephen hawking and you are not. they would in character know what you don't.

Douglas

2015-02-25, 02:55 AM

I understand what you're saying, but this is THE most important break they've had in nearly a century. The ENTIRE force is coming out to capture the key. It is actually that important. The entire cult of 40ish wizards were going to show up, and go to town on the party. I just don't see how to get them out of it, short of stopping them from making it to the ambush site.
Your players know this item is important to the cult, but I get the impression they have no idea that its importance is anywhere near that magnitude. Is there any reasonable way to convey this information? Have they discussed it with any NPCs? Having an appropriate NPC tell them "Guys, you're not going to get a flunky going after this thing, you're drawing the entire ****ing cult onto your heads" might get them to reconsider.

Alternatively, retcon things so the item's importance is more in line with what the party seems to think, and maybe substitute another item elsewhere that takes its place. I don't like this idea much, but it would let you reduce the cult response without breaking character for them.

Another idea: invent an opposing force, legitimate authority or another cult or whatever, that is hostile to this cult for some reason, and powerful enough to be a serious threat to them. This opposing group lacks the knowledge, power, or motivation to confront the cult in their base(s), but would react to a major cult expedition. Thus, if the cult actually does move in total force to take this item, the opposing group would counter-ambush them - and the cult knows this, so they send a smaller force in order to avoid provoking that counter-ambush.

Knaight

2015-02-25, 02:55 AM

Generally I just repeat the plan back to the players in a tone that highlights all the ways it seems completely stupid. If I've missed some detail, it generally gets explained, and if a plan is bad enough to justify that it's generally because something was misunderstood somewhere. Otherwise, it functions as a pretty solid warning, which will probably be completely ignored if the root cause of the horrible plan was something other than it just not having thought put into it or the aforementioned miscommunication. In this case, you'd want to highlight what high level D&D casting looks like (new people aren't going to be familiar with it), and highlight that the best case scenario for the plan involves someone with access to that attacking the PCs at their convenience with no warning. If the plan is enacted anyways, let the dice fall as they may, have the NPCs do what the NPCs do.

This sort of thing is part of the reason I like variant rules like hero points, incidentally. They help cheat death, turning option 1 into "they all get hit with what should be fatal attacks, some number probably survive" - provided that the points aren't getting spent elsewhere, whether it's random chance being against you or terrible plans being less isolated than they should be.

endur

2015-02-25, 02:57 AM

I understand what you're saying, but this is THE most important break they've had in nearly a century. The ENTIRE force is coming out to capture the key. It is actually that important. The entire cult of 40ish wizards were going to show up, and go to town on the party. I just don't see how to get them out of it, short of stopping them from making it to the ambush site.

Think about that for a moment ... how would the entire cult show up exactly? presumably the 40+ wizards don't live in the same place and don't travel together regularly. In order to agree to go somewhere, there would be lots of messages being carried by messengers saying, "Lets Meet at Minas Tirith next month to crush these low levels who have the one ring." Some of the wizards can travel on short notice, but some have long standing commitments that must be rescheduled. More messages will be sent to reschedule the existing commitments.

All the wizardly rivals who are spying on the 40 wizards will know that something is up. Some of the messages indicating the date and location may be leaked.

Someone will almost certainly decide to go early, or send a minion to go early for the item.

Even if the BBEG wants to show up with 40 archmages in a surprise attack, someone else will almost certainly make a move towards the item first.

Peat

2015-02-25, 03:01 AM

I would rather pull my punches and have an enjoyable game then play my NPCs all the way to the logical extreme and trample on everyone's fun, including my own. That goes double for dealing with new players who clearly don't have all the information they need to make a good decision and are likely to be discouraged by harsh and unexpected reactions.

You're the GM. You can have the leaders be less powerful than you originally envisioned; you can have the spy or an ambitious and less powerful underling go and make the snatch instead of the leader, hoping to garner brownie points and in the process giving the PCs a fight they can cope with; you can have the leaders be exhausted by conflict earlier in the day. Or you can have them witness the leader blowing the hell out of some other poor group like it's not such thing so they understand, or have a deserter warn them.

You don't have to follow the logic you've previously established all the way to a TPK the players never expected and can't escape - and doing so, imho, would be the worst possible thing you could do.

Knaight

2015-02-25, 03:02 AM

I like that analogy. And I will try AGAIN to explain to them how this is not the best idea, in a non-patronizing fashion. I would still like to have a contingency for if they decide to go through with it, though. Because it would be foolish not to.
...
I understand what you're saying, but this is THE most important break they've had in nearly a century. The ENTIRE force is coming out to capture the key. It is actually that important. The entire cult of 40ish wizards were going to show up, and go to town on the party. I just don't see how to get them out of it, short of stopping them from making it to the ambush site.

A)Sometimes dripping with sarcasm is the best way to deliver messages; this is highly dependent on the particulars of group social dynamics and may or may not be feasible.

B)I wouldn't expect the entire cult to show up. It's the most important break they've had in nearly a century, they don't have time to organize the logistics involved, particularly when it looks like one cultist can handle the PCs on their own. Plus, losing the entirety of their defenses all at once is inadvisable at best, and making sure it's at all safe to do that eats more valuable time.

Barstro

2015-02-25, 03:16 AM

if you are a person of average intelligence and little book learning and are playing an int 30 wizard then yes you should definitely get rolls like this. your character is smarter then Stephen hawking and you are not. they would in character know what you don't.

We are beings in a world of science playing characters from a world of magic. Even the densest of them have common knowledge we lack.

To put it the other way; it doesn't take much book learning to know that someone with several grenades and a rocket launcher can make for a bad day, but it may be difficult to explain that to someone from a D&D world. If they were the ones playing the game, their Army Master would have to explain that their characters know this soldier, despite no magical aura, has the power of 100 Magic Missiles, 10 Fireballs, and five Meteor Swarms, and they are outmatched, despite the 15 round magazine they just found for their semi-automatic pistols.

Most of my advice is probably too late. It sounds like wheels are in motion. If the BBEG is so bad and this key so important, then perhaps an NPC had been keeping tabs and can come save the day with a powerful magical barrier or teleport BBEG away and then spend five minutes scolding the PCs for getting in over their heads.

BWR

2015-02-25, 03:27 AM

Try the direct approach. Tell them straight out that while you don't want to mollycoddle them, if they don't come up with something different they will die. Make it clear that they are new players and because of this they get a one-time warning that in these games some things are simply beyond their power level.

Sometimes, though, you can't fix stupid (or "this sounds cool, let's give it a shot. It's only a game, after all")
I've had a experiences with suicidal groups. Both times resulted in a TPK, one time we were actually surprisingly close to winning (by which I mean 1/5 PC's surviving). This in spite of the fact that both times one player (me) warned everyone both IC and OOC that doing what they suggested was a Bad Idea and would result in a TPK.

Other than that, have some sort of cut scene where the BBEG pulls off some impressive stunt that shows the PCs how outclassed they are and give them a chance to pull back and rethink their options.

ILM

2015-02-25, 04:00 AM

Apologies in advance, I haven't read the other replies.

If it's really suicidal, kill them. You're the DM, which means you're The World. It doesn't pull punches in the face of overwhelming stupidity.

That being said, it didn't sound to me like it was made all that obvious to the players that this was a Bad Plan. Stealing supplies? Spreading plagues? I've started campaigns at level 1 with that sort of thing.

In any event, if you do not want to kill them, here's an idea: a rogue lieutenant of the Big Bad with a little more personal ambition wants to curry favour with him (her? Unclear from your post), and thinks that bringing him the item will make him look pretty damn good. So, unbeknownst to the Big Bad, he makes a grab for it by himself. Stat him up as a realistic threat and give your players a chance to capture and interrogate him as they planned. That way their plan can work, AND you can have the lieutenant drop that he was acting by himself but that the PCs are screwed anyway because the Big Bad is coming himself and he'll wipe the floor with them. Hopefully they'll take the hint and bolt.

goto124

2015-02-25, 04:36 AM

I did. I spent an HOUR while they came up with this plan both providing them with alternative ideas, and suggesting how to make this one better. They just ignored me. I couldn't talk them out of it. They wanted answers, and got obsessed with this plan. And, I wasn't going to tell them "No, you can't do it." Because that's just not how I run games. I told them, you can TRY anything, but you have to deal with the consequences.

At this point, assuming you've already heard the reasons why they don't accept alternatives [what were their reasons, by the way? It's important], I would go the very direct way and say 'if you do that, this and this very bad thing will happen'.

Pilo

2015-02-25, 04:53 AM

You can give them an ally, a diviner NPC that says he had a vision of them dead. But that can offer an alternative way to strike the cult hard, with less risks.

Arbane

2015-02-25, 04:58 AM

Is there some reason you can't dial the BBEG's power down from "INSTANT DEATH FOR EVERYONE" to "INSTANT DEATH FOR ONE OR TWO, EVERYONE ELSE RUN"?
Schroedinger's Wizard isn't just for forum arguments.

If that's not an option, does the cult have any other enemies that might be spying on them and would be willing to monkeywrench their plans?

Crake

2015-02-25, 05:15 AM

Why not have the cult they're in be infiltraded by some kind of authority, which, when the information seeps through the cult, they also get the information, and as the players are about to head out to get ambushed, arrest the players, just to stop them from leaving, before having a high ranking officer interrogate them, and maybe even confiscate the item, since at this point, it sounds like the PCs would be screwed if they kept it.

Or alternatively, have it so the information trickled up the ladder in the cult until it got to some guy in middle management who thought he could secure the item and by doing so get a promotion. Clearly he screws up, but could make for a recurring villain with a vendetta against the PCs for getting him into so much trouble when the cult leader finds out.

Yahzi

2015-02-25, 05:30 AM

I spent an HOUR while they came up with this plan both providing them with alternative ideas, and suggesting how to make this one better.
You mean you spent an hour trying to force them back on the railroad they escaped. And they resisted - good for them!

Your players are not suicidal: you have failed to give them appropriate information in-game. There is no way they can make the leap from low-level sorcs to 12th level wizard. You say the BBG has been robbing whole wagon loads of supplies - so what? That's well within the powers of low-level sorcs. Dealing out plagues? People did that without magic. Now if you had mentioned how the head of the cult had a pet dragon he had beaten into submission, or had a personal bodyguard of Pit Fiends (all feats well within the power of a 12th lvl wiz) then that would be a different matter.

So that's how you fix this; some random person stumbles up to the PCs and tells them just how dangerous the head wizard is, how the wiz is coming for them personally, and they need to flee out the back in the middle of the night and spend the next 10 years running for their lives until they are high enough level to face this monster. The NPC needs to provide them with proof - like, for instance, a famous 11th lvl Paladin and his personal army of 20 5th level Knights just got steam-rollered by this guy. Or maybe the NPC is a 15th lvl Fighter and he's got a charred stump where his arm used to be. And I mean charred - it's still smoking.

Give them an in-game reason for fearing your Wizard.

Ephemeral_Being

2015-02-25, 06:17 AM

I find it funny that I'm getting contradictory advice. Guess there IS no perfect solution here.

I think I'll use a couple of them. I'll weaken the Wizards to 6th level, from 12th, which is more in-line with the power of the campaign setting, anyway. I'll try to provide them with some obvious ways to get assistance. And because they're now limited to 3rd level spells (none of which can be allowed to threaten the key), I'll be able to justify NOT killing them. Hopefully.

To the people suggesting I provide more warning; They actually ARE aware the cult has a pet dragon. They know that it's not a low-level Sorc raiding caravans. The plague was MAGICAL in origin, and incredibly powerful. The aftermath and subsequent events have DISRUPTED THE ABILITY TO CONTACT OTHER PLANES. And if they don't understand what that means, they were nearly TPK'd in the last encounter, because they weren't paying attention and got ambushed. I cannot possibly imagine that they don't understand how powerful this cult is.

At least everyone seems to agree that if a couple of them die, that's alright. Boneheaded maneuvers should have consequences. Maybe I'll have the cult steal some of their equipment.

I'll read some more of this later. Make a better, more detailed response. But now. Now I need sleep.

Threadnaught

2015-02-25, 07:44 AM

If the PCs are suicidal, they should be punished for their actions - but not without fair warning. Give the players as many hints are you can without directly saying "If you do this, you will die."

I once told my players if they did something, their characters would die.

They went ahead anyway and lo and behold, their characters died.

Just making it clear, if your players want their characters to commit suicide, there's no way to stop them.

goto124

2015-02-25, 10:08 AM

'Just to confirm, do you want your characters to die? Permanently?'

Deadline

2015-02-25, 10:46 AM

You claim you have hinted strongly at the danger they are in, but you also state that they are all new players. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that none of them have had a PC die yet, nor do any of them have an idea of swingy combat can be in D&D against foes even a few levels higher than you. So odds are good that what you are saying isn't coming across as a warning, but as a way to ratchet up the tension and excitement. I'm going to agree with the folks telling you to either tone it down, or to straight up talk to your players and say "With the way this system works, I honestly can't see how your characters will survive more than a single round against these bad guys. Seriously, you are certainly heading the right direction, but I had planned for this encounter to happen much later when your party was way stronger. I'm either going to have to pull punches and finish the campaign early, or likely see the bad guys kill your entire party and finish even earlier. What do you guys want to do?"

Barstro

2015-02-25, 10:51 AM

You mean you spent an hour trying to force them back on the railroad they escaped. And they resisted - good for them!

There is a huge difference between (edit) not being railroaded and doing something that will get you killed.
Player: "There is a gold coin down there, I'm going to jump down and get it"
DM: "It's a 200 foot cliff. You will die."
P: "Don't care. I want the gold."
DM: "Ok, you are now dead at the bottom of a cliff."

That is not hyperbole, that is the same result of low level PCs knowingly getting into a fight with someone too high for them and that someone fighting to his abilities. Congratulations, they avoided a train. Now they can watch a movie. Otherwise, all campaigns should begin and end with "I summon a level 20 demon to do my bidding. If it tries to kill me, I will just yell 'I am a PC, the DM will not let me die!'":smallconfused:

For the record, I am against changing BBEG for the sake of saving PCs. There should be an in-game character-driven reason for changes in what has already been written. Normally, that would be a PC who is so overpowered that the BBEG learns of it and has to outfit his goons in such a way as to make it harder for the PC to win all the time (like increasing party size, adding oozes, etc.). There is very little reason for BBEG to handicap himself because the PCs are doing poorly (unless they are doing so poorly that he goes off to do something else and leaves Starscream in charge). If the PCs are making a decision to do something that will kill them, despite the DM's best efforts to save them from themselves, then they should die. In my experience, not allowing one to die due to his own actions just gives more reason to act rashly in the future.

IMO, if you are trying to keep the PCs alive (and I can understand why), there needs to be a logical reason for it other than BBEG being artificially reduces or pulling his punches.

goto124

2015-02-25, 10:56 AM

Have the players told you WHY they're sticking with their plan? Pretty sure they did, since you talked for an hour at least with them...

hifidelity2

2015-02-25, 11:06 AM

I once told my players if they did something, their characters would die.

They went ahead anyway and lo and behold, their characters died.

Just making it clear, if your players want their characters to commit suicide, there's no way to stop them.

Don't forget at the beginning he said that they were "VERY NEW TO ROLEPALYING" so they may not understand the implications of a wizard of that level.
For me as a DM I would have the BBFG send some minions along - he just aint got the time to deal with every rumour of the "Key" personally. It might still kill a PC (but as you said they have allowed for this).
If they were experienced players then I would be a lot less forgiving

Lightlawbliss

2015-02-25, 11:21 AM

I would have the cult respond with the highest chance of getting the micguffin. I would also expect other groups to get word of events and to attack the cult when they are preparing for the PCs. The PCs show up and finds a force that could kill them easily laying, dead and looted, along the road with an even larger force healing wounds that would kill the party, determining the value of the new loot, and other such after battle activities. The victors like the PCs for baiting out their targets.

SarahV

2015-02-25, 11:23 AM

How about a schism within the cult? Instead of attacking the party, some of them double-cross each other and start taking each other out while the PCs look on. Either some kind of double-agent infiltration by a group of good guys, or two sets of bad guys who want power badly enough to turn on each other, or some kind of religious disagreement (depending on details of the cult).

Either the PCs join a side, or they wait to see who wins and attack the remaining wounded/weakened survivors who have only a few spell slots left.

Flickerdart

2015-02-25, 11:27 AM

Why would the cult kill the PCs? I mean eventually, sure, but right away? The wizards will want to capture the PCs and pump them for information (who are you, how did you track us down, are there more of you, etc). Additionally, every evil cult has a use for live captives...

Alternatively, dump a sack of demons into the area, with one of the demons grabbing the key and giving it to the wizard (their teleport really helps here). The wizard leaves, the demons fight the PCs.

Chronikoce

2015-02-25, 11:55 AM

*Disclaimer I didn't read all posts before this so it may have been mentioned.

If the party really won't abandon this plan you can do some behind the scenes analysis of the Bad guys group. Does this evil organization have a strict Lawful hierarchy or do people in it have aspirations of their own? Unless those who acquire the information that the party has the key are completely loyal to the BBEG they may not actually turn the information over.

For example, some random underling learns (from the party rumors) that they have the key. He tells his immediate superior. This guy is pretty strong and has two options: 1) Pass the information along to his superior for a minor reward. OR 2) go fetch the key himself and then hand that over in person which shows that he is loyal, competent, and better than all his "equals".

This can even happen to more than one group under the BBEG. If this organization has multiple lieutenants (or something equivalent) then they may actually work against each other to some minor degree to be the first one who can acquire the key and hand it over to their boss.

This solves the issue of the BBEG showing up because they might not know yet. It also introduces a massive number of potential plot hooks for you to use at your leisure.

Blackhawk748

2015-02-25, 11:58 AM

Ok, so i assume they are going to be really obvious with this. Like "oops this absurdly important artifact just fell out of my pocket". Ok in that case the cult will most likely assume an ambush and so they will probably tail the PCs and find out whats going on. (probably a Rogue/Sorc, Wiz, or Beguiler/Unseen Seer, no need to go past lvl 7 for this guy) Then after they have gathered sufficient intel to realize that they could roflstomp these guys, the BBEG send a Lieutenant and a cadre of minions (maybe 3-4 body guard types) Now to maximize their odds of winning, the Lieutenant should probably be a summoner and have several summoned mooks waiting in the wings. Que assault on party.

Now while the Cult has been doing all this (id say about a week or so to get everything lined up) the Opposing Cult of Fine Upstanding Gentlemen has heard about the idiots who let slip about the artifact and has done their own recon. Now the PCs have done something that the Gentlemen have been, so far, incapable of doing. Drawing out an important cult member, so they decide to ambush the Cult during the PCs ambush. I recommend some Rogues of the Divine persuasion with maybe two Shadowbane Stalkers (Rogue/Clerics) led by a Shadowbane Inquisitor (Paladin/ Rogue) So when the Cult trips the PCs ambush and starts wrecking everything, about a round or two later, the Divine Commandos show up and start wrecking the Cult. (People with Sneak Attack will do that)

After the fight and the PCs are now thankfully not dead, they get a bit of a lecture from the Inquisitor. Not a real dressing down more of a "Your hearts are in the right place, but this risk was foolish." Then elaborate on the horribleness that could have happened. Now the PCs are alive, they still have the MacGuffin, they have new allies and the Cult just thinks it was a very clever trick on the Gentelmen's part. Win win.

Threadnaught

2015-02-25, 12:32 PM

There is a huge difference between (edit) not being railroaded and doing something that will get you killed.
Player: "There is a gold coin down there, I'm going to jump down and get it"
DM: "It's a 200 foot cliff. You will die."
P: "Don't care. I want the gold."
DM: "Ok, you are now dead at the bottom of a cliff."

Sorry, this really reminds me of a game I was a player in. Except, instead of it being gold, we were told about a body.
I begin climbing down, Circa begins setting up climbing equipment to make his descent easier, while that ******* Druid jumps down. The surviving characters looted his mangled body when they reached the bottom. :smallamused:

Don't forget at the beginning he said that they were "VERY NEW TO ROLEPALYING" so they may not understand the implications of a wizard of that level.

At the time, were were all as experienced as each other. Now only that ******* Druid has a matching level of experience, I am unsure of Circa and MetaMyconid's experience, but they visit here so they know their way around a table well enough.

Knaight

2015-02-25, 12:37 PM

Don't forget at the beginning he said that they were "VERY NEW TO ROLEPALYING" so they may not understand the implications of a wizard of that level.

This is why I suggested explicitly mentioning what high level D&D casters look like.

danzibr

2015-02-25, 12:58 PM

Is there a way to modify option 5 so that instead of someone comes and saves the day, it's like, someone comes and bungles things horribly in such a way that the players get a second chance to realize this is a suicidal plan?
I like this idea (and others that said similar things).

I would suggest the following. Either let them die, *OR* introduce a strong buddy. Like maybe a level 8 Fighter or something. Have him save the party or something, then he fights the BBEG within eyesight of the party but far away, and totally gets owned. So... someone stronger than the party getting owned. May help them to see the power difference.

mashlagoo1982

2015-02-25, 01:37 PM

If you want to keep everything “in game”, you could suggest the party make a Gather Information check (I can’t remember if the DM or PCs roll the dice). Another option would be to have the party hire some investigator to research the BBEG (money spend can be added to loot later). Either is probably something they should do anyhow BEFORE attempting to take him on.

You can then inform the party about some of the things the BBEG has participated in. Maybe a group of wanders broke into the BBEG’s house and tried to kill him. The BBEG obviously had to defend himself… though the wanders were unusually well prepared… and the BBEG was unusually unharmed despite being outnumbered 7 to 1.

I would probably just go with the one-time OOC warning some other posters suggested though.

Telok

2015-02-25, 01:37 PM

Possible solutions,
1: A thief or assassin is sent to steal the key. The characters must now catch the thief before he reaches the cult.
2: A mid level cultist wants to increase his standing in the cult by getting the key first. The characters fight a strong but not overwhelming caster and get a captive or clues before the rest of the cult gets to them.
3: A faction within the cult wants the key for intra-cult politics. During the fight some cult members turn against each other allowing the characters to escape.
4: A rival cult wants the key too. Cue a three way fight and emphasize the cults spraying Chain Lightning and Baleful Polymorph around. The characters are no longer the most important targets.
5: An even worse BBEG appears and makes off with the key easily. In order to stop the world ending horror the characters and the cult must team up to stop the evil ritual at Mt. Doom.

SimonMoon6

2015-02-25, 02:52 PM

Here's a possibility:

They run into some fortune-telling or precognitive NPC with a special power. She will let them see what their future will be if they stay on the path they're on, possibly a shared dream.

That way, you can run the encounter just as you would normally run it. Then, when the PCs die horrible deaths, the PCs get to wake up from this shared dream and realize that maybe their plan is flawed.

Nobody "saves" them because they never go into the danger "for real" in the first place. Unless they choose to do so anyway, in which case you can just tell them that everything happens exactly as in the dream.

georgie_leech

2015-02-25, 03:36 PM

atemu1234

2015-02-25, 04:04 PM

Well, you could have them roll new PCs when they die.

Elvenoutrider

2015-02-25, 05:15 PM

I had a party in a game that came up with a very similar sounding suicidal plan and then Took extra means to goad the big bad into showing up in person. I had done plenty to describe this guy as no joke, I believe even having a mook telling them he would summon demons every morning just to kill them and spread their remains on his breakfast toast.

Anyways the party went ahead with this and The boss incapacitated all of them. I had them wake up chained to trees with one of their party in a pit filled with pitch. The big bad poured boiling oil in and lit the pit and had his men leave the party to watch and to spread word of the atrocity. what the bbeg did not know was that the player in the pit was fire immune. Party gets away after the player climbs out of the pit. No one dies, and they learned their lesson. The guild master then berated them for their stupid plan before giving them new equipment.

Dunno if this helps but maybe it helps you make a decision.