Tips for a Monk going into assassin?

[Ninja_Grand]

The title says it all. Im making a LE hungry ghost ki power monk. At level 7 he goes in assassin. My only issue is that I dont know what feats to take, should I use poisons, and how much "Assassin" feel I want. Its hard for me to plan him, as we are starting at level 1.


Other then Monastic Legacy, what feats do I take? And any other tips would be nice =).



Please pardon the grammar, and wording. I have issues with writing first posts.

Edit: My monk will be using mostly non-lethal damage, that is in till he starts researching dark arts (Hungry ghost) that grant him greater control over his ki (Qinggong monk). As he gains power, he craves it more. When he learns about the dark technique "Piercing heart strike"(Death attack) he trains in its use. Then its anything that can help kill a target and take his ki (poison and feats and such)

So anything that would help a monk/assassin (the class combo) would be appreciated

Edit 2: Also my stats are as follows
STR 17
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 17
WIS 16
CHA 10

[Kazuel]

I guess the classic answer would be, "why not go with a swordsage instead" though I expect the answer to be "ToB" is outlawed.

[Feint's End]

I guess the classic answer would be, "why not go with a swordsage instead" though I expect the answer to be "ToB" is outlawed.

It's pathfinder so the more accurate idea would be to suggest Stalker. You can fight better than a monk and you get the assassin feeling on top.

@OP: Are you willing to use dreamscarred material / would your dm allow it? Read: are you set on this class combination or is it the concept/flavour that intrigues you?

[IZ42]

Guys, just want to note something. He asked for Monk, not Swordsage or Stalker. So you give build advice based on his class choice, not "oh monk isn't good, use this class instead" and suggest something completely thematically different from his original class. [/forcerantend]

As to your idea, that sounds fun for a character. I presume you are using Pathfinder, so I'm gonna make a few suggestions. Poisons are gonna require a feat with annoying prerequisites to apply them to your fists(adder strike), and have a low save and meh effects, but there may be ways to improve the saves by creating your own (I don't know for sure). I would suggest picking up style feats (maybe Tiger Style, although some others may be good). I'll think on it.

[Psyren]

In a dream world, my monk makes a death attack on the BBEG and then fights his mooks.


Not to disappoint you or anything, but this is pretty much never going to work. Even if you take out the very likely possibility of DMs not being willing to let their BBEG to get anti-climatically one-shot like this, and even putting aside your own MAD with this class combination, the BBEG will most likely be above your level/CR, and thus have very strong saves for the level you face him - particularly fort and will. Your chances of this working are extremely slim even if you were somehow able to focus on Intelligence - which, as a monk, you're not (unless you bring in 3.5 material.)

Your best bet with Death Attack is to take a lieutenant - preferably a supporting caster, who will likely have a weak fort save - out of the fight instead, leaving the BBEG that much weaker for your allies to focus on.

Personally though, I would go straight monk and just call myself an assassin, and use Quivering Palm to simulate Death Attack instead. That or be an unarmed Ninja.

[Ninja_Grand]

It's pathfinder so the more accurate idea would be to suggest Stalker. You can fight better than a monk and you get the assassin feeling on top.

@OP: Are you willing to use dreamscarred material / would your dm allow it? Read: are you set on this class combination or is it the concept/flavour that intrigues you?
Im set on the class combo.

Guys, just want to note something. He asked for Monk, not Swordsage or Stalker. So you give build advice based on his class choice, not "oh monk isn't good, use this class instead" and suggest something completely thematically different from his original class. [/forcerantend]
^This. <3 thank you for speaking up
As to your idea, that sounds fun for a character. I presume you are using Pathfinder, so I'm gonna make a few suggestions. Poisons are gonna require a feat with annoying prerequisites to apply them to your fists(adder strike), and have a low save and meh effects, but there may be ways to improve the saves by creating your own (I don't know for sure). I would suggest picking up style feats (maybe Tiger Style, although some others may be good). I'll think on it.
I knew about addler strike, but a smart monk/assassin carrys a pair of "Monk daggers"(I forget the name) just for the occasion

Not to disappoint you or anything, but this is pretty much never going to work. Even if you take out the very likely possibility of DMs not being willing to let their BBEG to get anti-climatically one-shot like this, and even putting aside your own MAD with this class combination, the BBEG will most likely be above your level/CR, and thus have very strong saves for the level you face him - particularly fort and will. Your chances of this working are extremely slim even if you were somehow able to focus on Intelligence - which, as a monk, you're not (unless you bring in 3.5 material.)

Your best bet with Death Attack is to take a lieutenant - preferably a supporting caster, who will likely have a weak fort save - out of the fight instead, leaving the BBEG that much weaker for your allies to focus on.
^I kinda figured that, but a man can dream.....Thanks for the combat tip
Personally though, I would go straight monk and just call myself an assassin, and use Quivering Palm to simulate Death Attack instead. That or be an unarmed Ninja.

Ok so a bit more info. The reasons im playing a monk are
Unarmed combat is cool
Monks are cool
Trying to prove to my group that monks are cool
And its part of the character


My monk will be using mostly non-lethal damage, that is in till he starts researching dark arts (Hungry ghost) that grant him greater control over his ki (Qinggong monk). As he gains power, he craves it more. When he learns about the dark technique "Piercing heart strike"(Death attack) he trains in its use. Then its anything that can help kill a target and take his ki (poison and feats and such)

So anything that would help a monk/assassin would be appreciated.

[IZ42]

Actually, looking at stacking poison rules, at 20th level with Flurry of Blows, you should be able to increase the DC by 12 (Initial DC, six more attacks add +2 to the DC each. I suggest reading this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) for info on poisons.

[Ninja_Grand]

Oh man! That is a great idea! Even at low levels this is great! Thanks for the tip!

[Drelua]

One thing worth considering is that you'd probably be better off with a weapon than unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes certainly are cool, but a level 7 monk is doing d8 damage and only crits on a 20. You could have a Monk's Robe, but that's 13k down the drain, and you still might be better off with a 9-ring broadsword or a temple sword; same damage, but with either a x3 multiplier or a 19-20 threat range. More importantly, though, it costs half as much as an Amulet of Mighty Fists to enchant and you can get two-handed power attack damage. Of course, if you're not too attached to the archetype, you could take Sohei instead and flurry with a nodachi, but Hungry Ghost is pretty great too and you seem fairly attached, so of course you can feel free to ignore that suggestion.

It may also be a good idea go DEX-based, especially if you stick with unarmed fighting, since it's easy to get an Agile AoMF. You do have some pretty impressive stats though, so this may not help as much as it otherwise would. Still, the higher your level gets, the more your main stat gets ahead of the rest.

As for ki powers, you'll probably want barkskin, and scorching ray could be pretty effective as a ranged sneak attack. True strike could also be a good idea to make sure those death attacks hit. If you ever get to a high enough level, you'll definitely want spit venom. I'm not sure how it would interact with sneak attack since it doesn't directly inflict any damage, just applies the effects of a poison that may do CON damage, but blinding a person should be pretty effective, even just as a lockdown. You'll probably want a necklace of ki serenity, which is another advantage to using a weapon; no AoMF frees up an item slot.

Oh, and I'm not so sure about Monastic Legacy. It only adds half your non-monk levels, and only for unarmed damage, so it gets you from d8 to d10 at level 9, an average increase of 1 damage, and then to 2d6 at level 17, which may seem like a lot, but really it's only 2.5 more than a d8 on average. Then again, with a monk's robe and the feat, you'll be doing 2d6 at level 7, 2d8 at 15, and 2d10 at 20, so it may be worth it far enough down the line. Okay, now I'm throwing way too many numbers around and this is getting confusing. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I hope there's something you find useful buried in my ramblings. Good luck with the character!:smallsmile:

Oh, and I forgot to mention; there's a couple things you should consider about poisoning your fists. First of all, I'm pretty sure the DC and duration only increases with poisons that are in effect; that is, doses against which the enemy failed their save. More importantly though, I'm not sure how you'd be applying that many doses of poison to yourself. Even if your DM let's you poison your hands, elbows, knees and feet, you're still going to burn through that in a couple rounds, and then you'll only be able to re-apply so fast, and at the cost of your swift actions, which can get pretty valuable.

Oh, and you'll want a quick runner's shirt. Or ten, if your DM's nice.

[IZ42]

If your DM's nice about it, you should be allowed to enchant your fists directly, because monks need help. Like, serious help. Pathfinder Unchained might not even fix them completely.

[illyahr]

If your DM will allow 3.0 material, the Brass Knuckles in the Arms and Equipment Guide do 1d3 lethal but monks are proficient with them and they explicitly allow a monk to use their unarmed damage when wielding them.

[Drelua]

If your DM will allow 3.0 material, the Brass Knuckles in the Arms and Equipment Guide do 1d3 lethal but monks are proficient with them and they explicitly allow a monk to use their unarmed damage when wielding them.

You don't have to go to 3.0 for that, all you have to do is convince your DM to ignore a bit of errata and use the version of Brass Knuckles contained in the APG which has the same provision for using a monk's unarmed damage and granting proficiency to monks.

[Garktz]

Might be a little OP but **** it, its a monk and needs some love

Use bandages to cover your fists, enchant the bandages.
Thats the best idea to enchant your fists without going for something really weird.

Also, along with your "i.ll damage you using ki" i think some kind of permanent wraithstrike enchantment to those bandages could give you that ki strike feeling. You punch the guy, armor doesnt blend but he still gets hit without any "visible effect" on he outside

[Ninja_Grand]

One thing worth considering is that you'd probably be better off with a weapon than unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes certainly are cool, but a level 7 monk is doing d8 damage and only crits on a 20. You could have a Monk's Robe, but that's 13k down the drain, and you still might be better off with a 9-ring broadsword or a temple sword; same damage, but with either a x3 multiplier or a 19-20 threat range. More importantly, though, it costs half as much as an Amulet of Mighty Fists to enchant and you can get two-handed power attack damage. Of course, if you're not too attached to the archetype, you could take Sohei instead and flurry with a nodachi, but Hungry Ghost is pretty great too and you seem fairly attached, so of course you can feel free to ignore that suggestion.
Thanks for all the tips here. Im going to stick with unarmed strikes, but im going to pick up a temple sword as my "need a weapon" weapon. (Read:DR, keen) Reason? A Dm who firmly trusts in enchanted hand-wraps and gloves.

It may also be a good idea go DEX-based, especially if you stick with unarmed fighting, since it's easy to get an Agile AoMF. You do have some pretty impressive stats though, so this may not help as much as it otherwise would. Still, the higher your level gets, the more your main stat gets ahead of the rest.
Ohhhh Dex to damage! Will give this some thought. Nice to main for a assassin.
As for ki powers, you'll probably want barkskin, and scorching ray could be pretty effective as a ranged sneak attack. True strike could also be a good idea to make sure those death attacks hit. If you ever get to a high enough level, you'll definitely want spit venom. I'm not sure how it would interact with sneak attack since it doesn't directly inflict any damage, just applies the effects of a poison that may do CON damage, but blinding a person should be pretty effective, even just as a lockdown. You'll probably want a necklace of ki serenity, which is another advantage to using a weapon; no AoMF frees up an item slot.
Scorching ray! Duh. Totally forgot that spells like that can SA. Re-skin it as some fire needles and we have a winner. True strikes were planed, flavorful and effective. Did not know about the necklace of ki serenity, so thats my neck item.
Oh, and I'm not so sure about Monastic Legacy. It only adds half your non-monk levels, and only for unarmed damage, so it gets you from d8 to d10 at level 9, an average increase of 1 damage, and then to 2d6 at level 17, which may seem like a lot, but really it's only 2.5 more than a d8 on average. Then again, with a monk's robe and the feat, you'll be doing 2d6 at level 7, 2d8 at 15, and 2d10 at 20, so it may be worth it far enough down the line. Okay, now I'm throwing way too many numbers around and this is getting confusing. :smallconfused:
If I dont get a early robe, then I will drop the feat. Did not know how little the damage went up.
Anyway, I hope there's something you find useful buried in my ramblings. Good luck with the character!:smallsmile:
Thanks man! Lots of great tips here
Oh, and I forgot to mention; there's a couple things you should consider about poisoning your fists. First of all, I'm pretty sure the DC and duration only increases with poisons that are in effect; that is, doses against which the enemy failed their save. More importantly though, I'm not sure how you'd be applying that many doses of poison to yourself. Even if your DM let's you poison your hands, elbows, knees and feet, you're still going to burn through that in a couple rounds, and then you'll only be able to re-apply so fast, and at the cost of your swift actions, which can get pretty valuable.
Custom poisons. I will only be able to get 3 doses in, but the DC will be fine (Two Sianghams and the sword). I think I stated this before, but I will be using a pre poison weapons for my well....poisoning. No adder strike here!
Oh, and you'll want a quick runner's shirt. Or ten, if your DM's nice.
Full attacks and a move. I can dig it :smallbiggrin:
Thank you so much for all your help. I will look in to the Sohei for my next monk. (Cause flurry with a great sword katana is badass

[Drelua]

Glad I could help! I actually just remembered that there might be a FAQ that goes against sneak attacking with spells, so that may be worth mentioning to your DM, but I always thought that was a silly ruling, so your DM may be willing to rule against such a FAQ if it does in fact exist.

As for poisons, my main concerns are the costs, the DCs, and the practicality of carrying enough dosed weapons. Poisons can be expensive, so it's probably something you'd want to save for bigger enemies, especially since low level mooks are probably going down before the poison can have it's full effect. The problem with this is that high Fort saves, poison resistance, and even outright immunity, are all pretty common. Whole types of creatures - undead, constructs, elementals and oozes to name a few can't be poisoned at all. Plus, as I said before, the DCs only start to scale once they start failing saves. I think. That said, there are ways to get around some of these issues. Either having an alchemist in the group or making use of craft (alchemy) to make your own poisons can save you a lot of money. I'm not too familiar with how these rules work in Pathfinder, but I know 3.5 had something about poisons' raw materials costing 1/6 of the price rather than 1/3, or something like that. There may also be ways to increase the DCs of poisons you create, though I'm not too sure about that. So it might be workable, but it'll take work.

And yeah, Sohei is a really fun archetype. Mine just hit level 8, so he has an initiative modifier of +14, and he always acts in surprise rounds. Incidentally, that last part would synergize really well with sneak attacks. Anyway, this means that I pretty much always act first, even if I have no idea what's going on, so I've had a few moments when my character had no idea what was going on, but he still charged across a room, whipped out his giant katana and whacked somebody with it, all the while having no clue what was happening. :smallcool:

[Secret Wizard]

Big problem I notice here is DCs. Your Punishing Kick and your Death Attack both target Fortitude, so I think that's the first issue.

Sohei or Weapon Adept would be a good recommendation to get a good bonus replacing your Stunning Fist/Punishing Kick that will only get weaker and weaker as you level...

Another option is to go Harrow Warden Monk, which can target Will with its Idiot Strike (actual ability name).

[Psyren]

Actually, looking at stacking poison rules, at 20th level with Flurry of Blows, you should be able to increase the DC by 12 (Initial DC, six more attacks add +2 to the DC each. I suggest reading this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison) for info on poisons.

The big problem here is keeping the weapon poisoned between hits. Generally, a hit removes the dose of poison you applied to your weapon.

You'll also have to use injury poison, since smearing contact poison on your fists isn't the smartest use of your actions.

[IZ42]

The big problem here is keeping the weapon poisoned between hits. Generally, a hit removes the dose of poison you applied to your weapon.

You'll also have to use injury poison, since smearing contact poison on your fists isn't the smartest use of your actions.

That was one of the problems I see with poisons, and the only way to get around contact poison on unarmed strikes is Adder Strike, which is meh. But wait, your unarmed strikes can be with any part of your body, so you could apply poison to elbows, hands, knees, and legs!