Mindrape and spellcasting

[Frostthehero]

Mindrape. I'm sure you all know it, so I'll cut right to the chase. True or false, according to RAW, mindrape allows you to give someone spellcasting. I've heard arguments for or against this, but here is my argument. See what you think.

Mindrape says you can give the target of the spell knowledge.

The mind switch spell (power, whatever) allows you to switch bodies (or minds) with another creature. The key thing to remember however, is that you keep your class abilities.

What I am trying to prove is that by wiping the target's mind, and then copying everything in your mind into their mind, you could create an exact copy of yourself, just with a different body. You could then add a change that makes them subservient to you, and no one else. Problem solved.

The implications are stunning. Let me know what you think.

[Flickerdart]

Mindrape can give knowledge, but not class features or levels. You need explicit permission - such as what Mind Seed gives - to grant those.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mindrape. I'm sure you all know it, so I'll cut right to the chase. True or false, according to RAW, mindrape allows you to give someone spellcasting. I've heard arguments for or against this, but here is my argument. See what you think.

Mindrape says you can give the target of the spell knowledge.

The mind switch spell (power, whatever) allows you to switch bodies (or minds) with another creature. The key thing to remember however, is that you keep your class abilities.

What I am trying to prove is that by wiping the target's mind, and then copying everything in your mind into their mind, you could create an exact copy of yourself, just with a different body. You could then add a change that makes them subservient to you, and no one else. Problem solved.

The implications are stunning. Let me know what you think.

You can grant the MEMORY of spellcasting in the past, but not the spellcasting itself. The copy would have your memories, your beliefs, your identity, but not your class levels, class features or any other mechanical effect not stated in the Mindrape spell.

Spells are not JUST a mental thing, otherwise how come you can memorize a spell and only cast it once before you forget? If you memorize something you should be able to cast it as many times as you have energy to cast.

[Frostthehero]

Mindrape can give knowledge, but not class features or levels. You need explicit permission - such as what Mind Seed gives - to grant those.

Is this RAW or RAI?


You can grant the MEMORY of spellcasting in the past, but not the spellcasting itself. The copy would have your memories, your beliefs, your identity, but not your class levels, class features or any other mechanical effect not stated in the Mindrape spell.

Spells are not JUST a mental thing, otherwise how come you can memorize a spell and only cast it once before you forget? If you memorize something you should be able to cast it as many times as you have energy to cast.

Flickerdart has pretty much shut me down, but for the sake of argument, I want to pursue this one.

The spell explicitly states that you can give the target knowledge. Spells cast by sorcerers are knowledge.

The training required to gain class levels is knowledge (if it isn't, then what is it?). Everything but ability scores is knowledge.

Let's say you give someone the memory of all of your wizard training. What don't they get?

Actually, now that I think about it, this raises another interesting idea.

Maybe you can give the target spells, but not the levels required to cast them?

[Flickerdart]

Is this RAW or RAI?
"Spells do what the spell description says they can" is pretty much how the game is built; "it doesn't say I can't" is not an argument. All instances where it is possible to grant class features explain explicitly that they do so. The rules never draw a parallel between class features and knowledge.

[atemu1234]

"Spells do what the spell description says they can" is pretty much how the game is built; "it doesn't say I can't" is not an argument. All instances where it is possible to grant class features explain explicitly that they do so. The rules never draw a parallel between class features and knowledge.

I agree with Flick on this one. For starters, it'd just be broken :smalltongue:.

[sideswipe]

you could definitely make the target THINK it can cast spells.

make it believe it can cast spells two levels below you.
then use still and silent spell to make him think he is casting the spell and your just giving moral support forever :smallbiggrin:

[Ashtagon]

The spell explicitly states that you can give the target knowledge. Spells cast by sorcerers are knowledge.

The training required to gain class levels is knowledge (if it isn't, then what is it?). Everything but ability scores is knowledge.

Let's say you give someone the memory of all of your wizard training. What don't they get?


They get the memory of that magical training or formative experiences, and may sincerely believe they went through those, but because they didn't actually happen, they don't get the abilities or class features.

[ILM]

The spell explicitly states that you can give the target knowledge. Spells cast by sorcerers are knowledge.
Uh, I feel like I'm missing something here. My copy of BoVD says nothing of the sort. You can add or remove memories, alter emotions, opinions and alignment - that's pretty much it.

[Necroticplague]

DnD is an exception-based rules system. By default, you can't do anything, unless a rule says that you can. This extends to spells as well: unless the spell specifically says it can do something, it can't. Mindrape doesn't say it can grant class levels, or the ability to cast spells, or spells slots, or XP, or anything similar. Ergo, it can't. All it can do is erase or add memories, and alter emotions, opinion, and alignment, and leave the target insane.

[Segev]

To approach this from the fluff side (since the rules are cut-and-dried; spells do what they say they do and nothing more), think back to your classes in school 10+ years ago. Picture in your head, as clearly as you can, various classroom scenes from your childhood. Think hard about lessons you learned.

I'm sure there are some specific instances of learning something specific that you remember. I'm equally sure that there are things you know that you cannot recall the specific instance wherein you learned it.

And I know I, at least, often, when taking tests, could picture in my head having read the information the question was asking. I could almost see it on the page...but I couldn't recall what the specific information was. I sometimes get this when trying to remember a rule in a book, too. I can picture where on the page the feat is, but the explicit wording and numbers involved elude me.

I imagine that, if a wizard mindraped a first level commoner into remembering the wizard's life as perfectly as the wizard does, himself, the commoner's mental experience would be along those lines. He might not notice for a time, and just think he really is the wizard...but when he has to do anything that draws on the mechanics of being a level 19 wizard, he draws a blank. It might be just on the tip of his tongue...but he can't actually spit it out. He remembers knowing this, but he doesn't remember it well enough to USE it.

[Ruethgar]

Of course you could give them knowledge of incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) instead of spells. And while you at the task of messing with their minds you could chaos shuffle them too for some minor spellcasting from Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice(or Minor Divine Spellcasting if it is an elf).