New to Pathfinder... making a Gestalt character

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm a long-time 3rd edition DM (and player, when the opportunity arises). One of my players has decided to start a 1st-level gestalt Pathfinder game. In truth, he said it's 3.75 (meaning we can use 3.5 classes that don't have Pathfinder analogues, but he would have to update them, so has asked me stay away from Tome of Battle, given the amount of work that would take him).

We'll be playing in a home-brew campaign setting, though he will be running a published Adventure Path, but with some extra plot things on the side. I don't have the info on the setting yet (deities, etc), but he did say it would primarily start out in a city.

I rolled well for my stats (it was a generous rolling method):
17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 12

My immediate thought was to go Elven Cleric//Rogue who used a longbow and had the Magic domain, so I could use wizard scrolls/wands without UMD...

And then I see that Pathfinder butchered the Magic domain. And there's no Inflict Minor Wounds for a resource-efficient quick touch attack to inflict sneak attack.

Well, that's disheartening, and has quenched my desire for that character concept...

Now I'm at a complete loss as to what I should play. Maybe Dwarf Cleric//Rogue? It gets some nice stat boosts, and would make me an effective cleric, I guess (assuming I don't get tripped up by spells working differently than I expect them to). I looked at a ranking list of Domains that is on the PFSRD site, and it looked like Liberation, Luck, and Travel were some of the better domains. But again, I don't know what deities we will be using, or what their domains will be.

At this point, any ideas would be welcome, because I have no idea what to play.

The Party:
I don't know what the other players are looking at playing, exactly. The early ideas that were posited last night were:
Rogue//Something
Inquisitor//Something
No clue//No clue

There will be an active pantheon and a "dead" pantheon, and there will be a means of worshiping said dead pantheon. That's about the only extra bit of info I know.

TL;DR
Pathfinder (with some 3.5 allowed - No ToB)
1st-level gestalt
Homebrew setting (don't have much info yet, including deities)
Primarily a published AP (with some extra plot on the side)
Good rolls (17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 12) but so far frustrated by changes from 3.5
No idea what to play
Anything (first party?) in the d20pfsrd is allowed, except gunslinger and guns/bombs

[Elricaltovilla]

Is your DM aware of the Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)? Its a 3rd party update/conversion of the Tome of Battle system for Pathfinder. The same company also has a Psionics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed) conversion, and is working on an Incarnum conversion.

Anyway... why would you want to get up close and personal with touch attacks on a ranged build? You can sneak attack as a rogue out to 30 ft. and with the right rogue talents, archetypes or magic items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles) you can sneak attack at any range.

Really, you don't need spells in order to sneak attack, and you shouldn't be using them anyway. Your weapon will more than cover the damage with the right feats.

That being said, are you sure you want to gestalt with a rogue? Your party is pretty stealth heavy already, Inquisitor is a divine rogue with 6th level spellcasting and lots of damage boosting tricks, and you said another player is already gestalting with rogue. Without more information on the party though I can't give a lot of advice on what to play.

What sort of playstyle do you prefer/enjoy most? Maybe I can make some suggestions.

[Snowbluff]

Elric, you're plugging PoW to a game that doesn't allow ToB! XD

I suggest Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) with Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)Focus on getting attacks and sneak attack. You can get more arms for more bows, if you want them. Alchemist can use greater invisibility, so that's good for sneak attack.

[Vhaidara]

Elric, you're plugging PoW to a game that doesn't allow ToB! XD

It's disallowed because the GM doesn't want to update it. Which Elric is pointing out has been done. Read, my mighty future GM :smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

Elric, you're plugging PoW to a game that doesn't allow ToB! XD

Because the DM didn't want to do the conversion for it. Of course there's already a conversion to Pathfinder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s7GQLBeyEP1FitOMikP_Kh8oRmKnzG_AKvaOPqjHqWk/edit). So there ya go, no work for the DM to do.


I suggest Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) with Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)Focus on getting attacks and sneak attack. You can get more arms for more bows, if you want them. Alchemist can use greater invisibility, so that's good for sneak attack.

I would have recommended Vivisectionist Alchemist and Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). You can really focus the extracts and mutagen on long term buffs, and use the magus spell list for nasty bad touch spells like what the OP wanted to do with inflict minor wounds. Plus you can turn into an invisible mutated weretiger that can pounce and sneak attack on a charge.

I also like Ninja//Magus for swift action greater invisibility, extra attack on full attacks and all the skill points.

[ksbsnowowl]

Is your DM aware of the Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)? Its a 3rd party update/conversion of the Tome of Battle system for Pathfinder. The same company also has a Psionics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed) conversion, and is working on an Incarnum conversion.I don't think he knows about this, no. How similar is it to ToB? I'm already going to have to relearn a system I had mastered under 3rd edition; trying to learn another new system on top of that might be a bit much for me at the moment (I still currently DM two live campaigns, and two PbP campaigns, so a lot of my time goes into that).


Anyway... why would you want to get up close and personal with touch attacks on a ranged build? Because you can't flank at range. If an opening to flank presents itself, I can dump a low-level spell into a quick flanked sneak attack. And it's not like I'll be some unarmored Rog//Wiz; I'll be able to hold my own in melee just fine.


Really, you don't need spells in order to sneak attack, and you shouldn't be using them anyway. Your weapon will more than cover the damage with the right feats.It's not about damage, it's about ease of hitting touch AC vs normal AC, when the right situation shows itself.


That being said, are you sure you want to gestalt with a rogue? Your party is pretty stealth heavy alreadyWhat's wrong with the whole party being stealthy? That opens up some tactical options that wouldn't be available to a "typical" party.


What sort of playstyle do you prefer/enjoy most? Maybe I can make some suggestions.Well, mostly I can speak to what this group has done while I DM'ed for them. I expect there will be a decent mix of role-play and combat (50/50, would be my guess). We will be delving into dungeons (I asked if ranks in Open Lock and Disable Device would be wasted or not; I previously ran a viking game where there were very few traps and locked doors, so it does happen).

Edit: Several replies while I was typing. I'll give the alchemist and summoner a look.

[Almarck]

Elric, you're plugging PoW to a game that doesn't allow ToB! XD

I suggest Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) with Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)Focus on getting attacks and sneak attack. You can get more arms for more bows, if you want them. Alchemist can use greater invisibility, so that's good for sneak attack.

Except that the context was that it wasn't allowed because ToB would take top long to port. So plugging it is allowed since the gm might not know.

there's also a new binder if that swings your fancy
www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist

Also since I think some links are brpken, use the following to learn about starter spirits
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/pact-magic/spirits

[Vhaidara]

I don't think he knows about this, no. How similar is it to ToB? I'm already going to have to relearn a system I had mastered under 3rd edition; trying to learn another new system on top of that might be a bit much for me at the moment (I still currently DM two live campaigns, and two PbP campaigns, so a lot of my time goes into that).

Think Tome of Battle. Now remove the terrible editing and add actually fun and interesting maneuvers, plus actual customer support on these very forums from people like Elric, LordGareth, ErrantX, and Novawurmson.

Basically, comparing ToB and PoW is kind of like comparing Fighter to Warblade (when you understand ToB already): The second isn't really any more complicated, and infinitely better.

[ksbsnowowl]

I'll mention Path of War to the DM. Maybe I can give one of those a go.
I was reading Alchemist, then the PFSRD site took a crap when I clicked to read the Formulae list. Guess I'll have to research this later.

[Snowbluff]

It's disallowed because the GM doesn't want to update it. Which Elric is pointing out has been done. Read, my mighty future GM :smalltongue:
Got it.


I would have recommended Vivisectionist Alchemist and Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). You can really focus the extracts and mutagen on long term buffs, and use the magus spell list for nasty bad touch spells like what the OP wanted to do with inflict minor wounds. Plus you can turn into an invisible mutated weretiger that can pounce and sneak attack on a charge. Int synergy? Overrated without a full caster.

If you really want to incorporate that, Magus 2 and use Samsaran to add more blasting spells to the summoner list.

Another good option is dipping Warlord for the gambit and a stance. Pinhole Gambit is great with Archers. The bullrushing and tumbling gambits are amongst my favorite, along with Unbreakable Gambit.

[ksbsnowowl]

I told the DM about Path of War, but being third party, he's going to review it before he gives me the go-ahead. Of course, with the PFSRD being hit-or-miss today, I can't really begin weighing the maneuvers. Hopefully their site is back to normal functionality tonight.

Alchemist looks moderately interesting. Synthesist Summoner would be interesting if I could pair it with a PoW class. Still nothing really striking my fancy, but I'll root around a bit more and see what sticks out.

[Vhaidara]

I can vouch for Path of War. It was the deciding factor in me leaving 3.5 behind entirely. And, as I mentioned, if you have any questions, you can message the devs on these forums.

Synthesist//Warlord is a terrifying combination.

[Kudaku]

Hm... Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F ) Monk/Sacred Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo---warpriest-archetypes/sacred-fist) Warpriest? You'll have full flurry with bows and monk weapons, wisdom to hit with bows, and Zen Archer doesn't really use Swift Actions so you can spend those on Fervor spellcasting.

[ksbsnowowl]

So, my DM gave the go-ahead for Path of War. If any individual maneuvers are problematic he'll deal with those, but I think I should be good.

I'm planning on going Warder//Arcanist, but I'll be using the Dervish Defender archetype for Warder, so I get Intelligence to AC. I'll be sure to take a Counter at 3rd level (probably Bloody Riposte) so that I can make use of the Dervish Defender's Dervish Defense ability.

The DM said some spells from the Spell Compendium will be allowed (probably case by case), so Wraithstrike might still be a possibility.

It's looking to me that, in the early levels at least, Primal Fury is the best discipline. Has there been any sort of handbook written that breaks down the maneuvers, suggesting the best options? Or can someone at least point out "hey, you want to make sure to have at least two maneuvers from discipline X, because it has this great strike at 5th level," that sort of thing?

Despite the AC penalty, I think I'll go with Stance of Aggression over Pugilist Stance, since Stance of Aggression increases damage over time (though who knows if this game will last to 8th level...)

My plan for now is to make use of Mage Armor, plus Dex and Intelligence for my AC. That should suffice for the time being. For my Arcanist Exploits, I'll start with either Dimensional Slide or Quick Study, and take the other at 3rd level.

For race... Either Human or Tiefling, I think. Tiefling has Favorable ability scores, and I like the idea of having darkvision.

Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 12

With Human that would boost Intelligence to 19; with Tiefling it would also boost Dex to 17, and drop Cha to 10. This would eliminate the usefulness of some of the Arcanist's exploits, but it might be worth it. Which race would you go with? Any Piazo-published race is supposedly in play.

Lastly, what weapon should I wield? The Dervish Defender gets a nice little bonus at 6th level if I'm using two weapons or a double weapon. I'm thinking a double weapon would be good, but a Dwarven Urgrosh is the only one that looks at all palatable to me. I *think* Dervish Defenders get all double weapons (even exotic) added to their weapon proficiencies, but it's not explicitly clear.

Dervish defender are proficient in all simple weapons and martial melee weapons, double weapons, and with light armor.

Thoughts?

Edit: One other thing, does Path of War have any sort of Maneuver Cards, like what WotC made for ToB?

[Almarck]

I feel say it says martial double weapons. So, no free exotic double weapon unless your DM decides to forgo it or you roll a Dwarf.

Also, why Arcanist?

[Vhaidara]

Because Int casting?

Also, if you are going Dervish Defender, you want to focu on Thrashing Dragon. Primal Fury is better for Zweihander Sentinel, since that's when you want Two handed weapons. DD, meanwhile, is better with Two Weapon Fighting. For that, you want Outer Sphere Stance combined with Swift Claws. Here's an example of a backup character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=98040) I helped one of my players build (this one being a Dervish Defender Warder//Harbinger (the name is a joke).

I had a few housrules, namely every character getting a bonus feat and condensing Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility into a single feat, so you would need to swap Point Blank Shot for Deadly Agility and drop Winds of War. The knife vest is because his character idea basically just has a ton of knives and he draws, stabs, leaves the blade in the enemy, and draws a new one, so I gave him a custom item to make that viable.

However, the relevant thing is this: with 2 masterwork weapons at level 3, you initiate Swift Claws while in Outer Sphere Stance and get 2 attacks at +9 that each deal (for, say, two short swords) 2d6+4. If you pick up a damage boost (Black Seraph's Strength of Hell is best) then you end up with +11 to hit and 3d6+4 damage per hit

[Elricaltovilla]

There is a guide for warders and other initiating classes, in my signature. Each guide also has ratings for each discipline's maneuvers. I highly suggest reading the guides before getting to far into this. You seem to have some misconceptions that need clearing up.

1) you want to have a good mix of strikes, boosts and counters available, since each does different things and they have different priorities based on the tactical situation you find yourself in. They don't work like spells, you can keep reusing them as long as you take the time to refresh your maneuvers.

2) Primal Fury and Broken Blade currently have the highest potential damage of the disciplines, however that doesn't make them the best choice. Veiled Moon (which you can access by swapping a discipline via tradition) offers teleportation, intangibility and force effects something that was otherwise nearly impossible for a martial character to do before. Cursed Razor and Eternal Guardian curse and debilitate targets, with Eternal Guardian also offering some amazing area denial abilities thanks to its various strikes and boosts that increase your threatened area. The Thrashing Dragon discipline (which you do get access to as a Dervish Defender) offers some great mobility and lots of high powered attacks as well.

3) As a Dervish Defender, your best weapon is either going to be an unarmed strike (You'll need 4 feats to really pull this off though: Improved Unarmed Strike, Greater Unarmed Strike (PoW feat), Weapon Finesse, and Deadly Agility (PoW Feat)) or dual wielding Kukris (Two feats, Weapon finesse, Deadly Agility). I personally recommend kukris.

[ksbsnowowl]

Also, why Arcanist?
Intelligence caster (shares a prime stat with Warder), with the spontaneity of sorcerers, but the expanded knowledge possibilities of a wizard's spell book. That's awesome.

[ksbsnowowl]

They don't work like spells, you can keep reusing them as long as you take the time to refresh your maneuvers.I realize this. Not really any different from Tome of Battle, in this regard.


2) Primal Fury and Broken Blade currently have the highest potential damage of the disciplines, however that doesn't make them the best choice. Veiled Moon (which you can access by swapping a discipline via tradition) offers teleportation, intangibility and force effectsAh, this swapping of disciplines is an interesting idea that I hadn't seen yet. I'll give that a look. I'll be getting teleportation and force effects from Arcanist, though, so that might not be as big of a deal.

I've got over a week yet, so I'll sit down and read things more thoroughly before I finalize maneuvers. Right now I'm just doing a first pass, as Path of War just got approved late last night.


3) As a Dervish Defender, your best weapon is either going to be an unarmed strike (You'll need 4 feats to really pull this off though: Improved Unarmed Strike, Greater Unarmed Strike (PoW feat), Weapon Finesse, and Deadly Agility (PoW Feat)) or dual wielding Kukris (Two feats, Weapon finesse, Deadly Agility). I personally recommend kukris.I'll give that a look. However, won't I have some trouble casting my spells if I have weapons in both hands? That's why I was looking at a double weapon, which can be shifted to one hand as a free action, freeing my other one up for material and somatic components.


I feel say it says martial double weapons. So, no free exotic double weapon unless your DM decides to forgo it or you roll a Dwarf.
But that interpretation is so incredibly redundant that it is pointless to have even typed it in the class ability. All martial double weapons would have been covered under "martial melee weapons," would they not?

[Jack_Simth]

That being said, are you sure you want to gestalt with a rogue? Your party is pretty stealth heavy already, Inquisitor is a divine rogue with 6th level spellcasting and lots of damage boosting tricks, and you said another player is already gestalting with rogue.Oh, I don't know. An all sneaky gestalt party has options that a party with a number of non-sneaky members does not.

As for decent combos...

A Druid//Rogue can do some interesting things (especially once Pounce comes into play via Beast Shape II from Wildshape at 6th level). A Druid//Monk works similarly.

[ksbsnowowl]

So the guides to the maneuvers/classes that Elricaltovilla wrote seems to LOVE Outer Sphere Stance, but rate Stance of Aggression as just OK. Why is this? If you are dual-wielding, Stance of Aggression would apply to both attacks, too. The only difference I can see is that eventually (levels 8+) the –2 AC penalty reduces or goes away for Outer Sphere Stance, but remains for Stance of Aggression, but Stance of Aggression outpaces the damage increase of OSS (+2d6 at 8th, or +3d6 at 16th, vs +2d6 at 10th). And really, by that point you'll probably have a better stance anyway.

What am I missing here?

Still reading through maneuvers. I'll likely go with the Wayward Path Tradition that can give me Veiled Moon. Probably give up Broken Blade for it (not going to have an unarmed strike). Getting Stealth as a class skill will be nice, I suppose. Some of the Veiled Moon strikes will allow me to teleport in and attack as a standard action, then I can use my Dimensional Slide arcanist exploit to teleport out as a move action, allowing me to "spring attack" like Nightcrawler. Kind of a funny coincidence that I'll be a tiefling. Speaking of which, the DM queried my choice to eventually go with a Urgrosh over a two bladed sword...

I dunno, a guy with a red face and horns, who is lithe and has magical powers, wielding a two bladed sword... why don't we make the blades flaming and brilliant energy while we're at it...

[CGNefarious]

So the guides to the maneuvers/classes that Elricaltovilla wrote seems to LOVE Outer Sphere Stance, but rate Stance of Aggression as just OK. Why is this? If you are dual-wielding, Stance of Aggression would apply to both attacks, too. The only difference I can see is that eventually (levels 8+) the –2 AC penalty reduces or goes away for Outer Sphere Stance, but remains for Stance of Aggression, but Stance of Aggression outpaces the damage increase of OSS (+2d6 at 8th, or +3d6 at 16th, vs +2d6 at 10th). And really, by that point you'll probably have a better stance anyway.

What am I missing here?



I think the reasoning behind the difference in the ratings is because of the general applications of the stances. Stance of Aggression is a level one stance used by two-handed weapon users who normally only get one attack, thus it usually only gives +1d6 damage per round. Outer Sphere Stance is in a discipline that focuses on two-weapon fighting, and thus would normally give +2d6 per round.

Also, reading this thread makes me want to build a DD Warder/Dragon Fury//Harbinger gestalt. The fun things you could do with that combination.

[Necromancy]

Did you already start this game?