Rogue build advice

[Rolero]

Hi there fellow giants. I am about to start a new campaign with some old friends and new players to the game, and I ended up selecting a rogue for my character.

The game will be a low fantasy setting, with only core rulebook available in the beginning (we may unlock new classes and features as we progress through the campaign). We begin as level 1, as the GM has told us in advance that we will begin as slaves.

We will play in Gollarion, the base campaign setting world for PF.

For starters, why rogue? Well, we want to try and have a balanced party as the campaign will be doing classic style adventuring, ergo, play the hero killing monsters and looting their lairs, and we will probably play some of the oficial modules. So a standard party setting makes sense to me.

So far we have: a Dwarf Cleric, a Barbarian (who will switch to Druid on later levels), a Sorcerer (Arcane bloodline) and a Monk. There is still another player who hasn't picked up a character yet.

So, I though a good old Rogue would be exactly what this group needs. But, even having years of table experience, I have to admit that I am a bit too rusty for this role, and not to date which what things work and what may not.

For the character creation we get 15 point buy and one trait that has to be of the two available depending on what nation I choose, according to the Inner Sea Primer.

I was thinking on going with a Half-Orc and try to get to Cornugon smash and Shatter defenses with a Falchion. Problem is, this won't go online till 8th level, and that's what make me hesitate. Another option will be going with the classic improved feint and throw in two weapon fighting with short swords for when a get to flank.

Still, and as I said, I am rusty with my Rogue skills and builds. Can you give me suggestions on recomended talents and feat chains that could work no later than 5th or 6th level? As well as point distribution and Race?

Thanks!

[Secret Wizard]

Sadly, all Rogue builds take time to go online.

There's currently very few competitive Rogue builds. While the Thug/Bandit build is very nice, it suffers from HAVING to Intimidate to function, which means you won't get your Sneak Attacks on undead, oozes, swarms, etc.

If you want a functional build that works well in 15-point buy, try a high Dexterity build with Weapon Finesse and Fencing Grace (Dex-to-damage with Rapiers, your weapon of choice), taking the Scout archetype.

The idea is to move towards Spring Attack, allowing you to quick run-by stabs at enemies, using your high mobility and AC to draw their attacks and split the opposition while your main party tears them apart. Thanks to the Scout archetype, your Spring Attacks will always deal Sneak Attack damage. Earlier on, you rely on charging.

You can also take the Swashbuckler archetype to go online faster and to use a Scimitar for Dervish Dance, which goes online faster.

Stat array: STR13, DEX16, CON14, INT7, WIS13, CHA8 (I know low INT seems like a bad idea, but you still get 6 skill points per level, which should be enough to focus on Stealth, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Acrobatics and something else)
Traits: Freed Slave (Andoran region); Resilient (for +1 Will, +1 Fort)
Feats/Talents: 1. Weapon Finesse; 2. Combat Trick I (Dervish Dance); 3. Power Attack; 4. Combat Trick (Dodge); 5. Mobility; 6. Weapon Training (Scimitar); 7. Spring Attack; 8. Offensive Defense; 9. Furious Focus; 10. Crippling Strike; 11. Improved Critical (Scimitar); 12. Feat (Greater Fortitude); 13. Iron Will; 14. etc.

[Spore]

I will try to pitch in as much - subjective - opinion and help as possible.

Firstly: Your rogue is a terrible combatant. Or let me rephrase that. You are decent in scouted battles which you know the amount of enemies and how they fight. If unexpected circumstances occur (yourself being surrounded, no setup for sneak attacks) then you have major problems.

Secondly: Traps are hard to find, but easier to disable: Not only are the perception DCs higher, your wisdom is usually lower than your dexterity. I found this out the hard way. I feel that Skill Focus (Perception) is worthwhile on most rogues that aren't feat starved. Trap Spotter is another rogue trick that incredibly speeds up gameplay.

Thirdly:
I was thinking on going with a Half-Orc and try to get to Cornugon smash and Shatter defenses with a Falchion. Problem is, this won't go online till 8th level, and that's what make me hesitate. Another option will be going with the classic improved feint and throw in two weapon fighting with short swords for when a get to flank.

Most builds don't make a lot of sense before 5th level. But a Half-Orc having high Strength and a twohanded weapon deals decent damage like all melee characters. Your sneak attack is just an added bonus then. This is one of my preferred rogue builds, the other being an Elf with an Elven Curveblade, finessing it and going Str 14, Dex 20+.

Fourthly: To ANY and ALL rogues going into real melee combat and not only dipping in and out killing high value targets (i.e. going Shadow Dancer or Assassin PrC) I'd strongly suggest roughly half of the levels into a full BAB class. Be it Samurai, Fighter, Slayer or even Barbarian. The rogue is an incredible toolkit but you wouldn't bring a bike pump to a swordfight, would you?

Example ideas for rogues:
1) Rogue toolie: 100% rogue levels, feats and rogue tricks spent on infiltration, traps, information gathering, bluffing. Almost no combat viability.
2) Fighter/Rogue: 50/50. Decent combat, decent skill usage. THIS is your all around competent rogue. This is no Bilbo Baggins but better.
3) Rogue 7/PrC: Be it Shadow Dancer, Assassin or Duelist. They all improve your combat utility while continuing your utility as rogue.

I am not telling you like others to skip the rogue but rather discouraging to see your rogue as a combatant. Because pure rogue even with only combat feats DOES. NOT. WORK. Believe me, I played this abomination for more than a year.

[M Placeholder]

My advice for this would be - Play as a bard instead.

Remember, the adage that all parties need a rogue is a false one. You can find and spring traps without a rogue in the party (the cleric and the sorcerer should take part with that - ie a dominated enemy is great for springing traps)

Go for a bard. You will contribute more to the party, be able to take on more roles and have a lot more fun with the character.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd strongly suggest roughly half of the levels into a full BAB class. Be it Samurai, Fighter, Slayer or even Barbarian. The rogue is an incredible toolkit but you wouldn't bring a bike pump to a swordfight, would you?

It's worth noting that a Brawler gets full BAB and sneak attack with the Snakebite archetype.

[Rolero]

Thank you for all the tips guys!

I forgot to mention, since we only have core available, archetypes are out of the table.

For all I have read, most probably go with the all around rogue concept, diping some levels in fighter, which I think is the best to support the role.

The last build I got in mind with this, would be a half-elf rogue, and getting fighter on the next level.

It would look like this:

Half-Elf Rogue 1

Trait: Absalom Hotspur (+1 Iniciative and Knowledge: local)

Str 13 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8

I am ditching the social part a little, because we have a sorcerer that can play the face role. I am keeping Str at 13 mainly to be able to grab power attack.

1 - Rogue - Weapon finesse, Skill focus (perception)
2 - Fighter - Power attack
3 - Rogue - Talent: Weapon training (Falchion or short swords)? Feat?
4 - Rogue - +1 Dex
5 - Fighter - 2x feats

With this configuration, I get +4 BA, early access to weapon proficiencies, armor and shields and enough feats to build some style of gameplay quickly.

This is a low optimazition game, but still want to be as effective as possible, as I most probably have to be in the front lines or scouting alone, and should I run into trouble, I want to be able to bite back.

With 3 feats yet available, if I stick with the falchion, spring attack route could work to be constantly on the move looking for flanks and moving away after the hit. I was thinking that using a spear or another reach weapon can even be greater to stay out of trouble a little bit more. Thoughts?

Btw, can you do vital strike in addition to a spring attack?

I kinda like the two weapon fighting style with two short swords, and could even toss weapon specialization to buff the damage a little, but having to be static can be a problem. Would a sword+board build be worth it?

Right now, I like the spring attack idea, but I am still more than open to suggestions.

[omnitricks]

Core only is hard. The lack of archetypes to specialize in and selection of rogue talents which are limited to combat pretty much already sets your role. Even if the new stuff unlocks later on it still makes things harder to plan because you don't know what you're getting and when you are getting it.

Easiest rogue for core only sources is pretty much TWF at level 1, finesse rogue at level 2 at least. Open up to feint later on for two weapon feint (which means you're going to have to pump out bluff as well) UMD is always going to be a go to for skills as a rogue as well to help you match up with the party. This is the starting point and depending on how the game goes the options open up.

Ranged rogues are also an option but its too reliant on battlefield positioning, movement and UMD (at least the way I play it) and the build doesn't really come in until level 7 or 8. Its not to say you can't use it at earlier levels but its harder. You should also familiarize yourself with the stealth and environmental rules.

[Secret Wizard]

Pathfinder with no archetypes is like a car with no brakes.

It will get you where you want to go but the trip won't be as enjoyable.

[Spore]

Sword & Board is okayish with Bucklers, and I am no fan of TWFing since you will be moving ALOT if you try to maintain a flanking position. That's why I like the twohanded weapon option. A Falchion isn't finessable tho. I would strongly suggest the twohanded weapon. Combining one of the weakest classes with one of the weakest combat forms isn't really going to cut it. Also I'd go

second Trait: Heirloom Weapon (Elven Curveblade)
Rogue 1: SF (Perception), Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Trapfinder
Fighter 1: F: Weapon Focus (Elven Curveblade), Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: F: Step Up

You are the infiltrator and scout, your attacks are quick and nimble (Power Attack hurts your to-hit too hard because I don't know how your cleric and sorcerer will buff). You should decide at all times when you enter combat and when not. You threaten casters and archers in combat and make their efforts to escape futile.

If you go for a spear (better yet, a glaive), reverse your strength and dexterity, exchange Weapon Finesse for Power Attack and buy yourself a spiked gauntlet for direct combat.

[Rolero]

Sword & Board is okayish with Bucklers, and I am no fan of TWFing since you will be moving ALOT if you try to maintain a flanking position. That's why I like the twohanded weapon option. A Falchion isn't finessable tho. I would strongly suggest the twohanded weapon. Combining one of the weakest classes with one of the weakest combat forms isn't really going to cut it. Also I'd go

second Trait: Heirloom Weapon (Elven Curveblade)
Rogue 1: SF (Perception), Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Trapfinder
Fighter 1: F: Weapon Focus (Elven Curveblade), Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: F: Step Up

You are the infiltrator and scout, your attacks are quick and nimble (Power Attack hurts your to-hit too hard because I don't know how your cleric and sorcerer will buff). You should decide at all times when you enter combat and when not. You threaten casters and archers in combat and make their efforts to escape futile.

If you go for a spear (better yet, a glaive), reverse your strength and dexterity, exchange Weapon Finesse for Power Attack and buy yourself a spiked gauntlet for direct combat.

Unfortunetly, we only get one trait, and we begin the game as slaves, so the heirloom weapon may not be the best idea since it would have been stolen for me (although, it could be an interesting hook for a sidequest). However, what Secret Wizard said:


You can also take the Swashbuckler archetype to go online faster and to use a Scimitar for Dervish Dance, which goes online faster.

Made me remember that amazing feat, and since it is in the campaign setting, is legal (although I'll double-check with my GM)

So, the build could look like this in early levels:

1 - Rogue 1: SF (Perception), Weapon Finesse
2 - Fighter 1: Dervish dance
3 - Rogue 2: Talent: Weapon focus (Scimitar), Dodge
4 - Fighter 2: Movility
5 - Rogue 3: Spring attack

I think I like the idea of keeping movility as a focus for my combat style, and spring attack can be great to escape melee locks or be constantly on the move looking for flanks.
Onto the Dervish dance feat, and for what I read, the feat does not say anything about wielding the scimitar two handed, so, can this be used as a 2H weapon and still use my Dex (is there is a faq about it? it could help me a lot, because most probably my GM will bring this up)
Anyways, on later levels, power attack and the step up route sounds good enough.

For a low fantasy low optimization setting, I think this guy can work pretty well. What do you guys think?

[Secret Wizard]

Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

Can't wield it in two hands and still get Dex to damage.

I'd honestly stay Rogue -- you get no benefit from the heavy armor of the fighter nor the additional proficiencies (which is why archetypes would help you there...)

You could go with a high DEX/CHA route and do Underhanded and Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses too.

[Rolero]

Oh, s**t...
Reading is indeed broken. So far for my ultimate plan. Still, I think is worth it, even without the extra damage.

We don't have archetypes available, hence, why I feel the need to dip into fighter for some feats and BA. And while I won't go into heavy armor, with 3 levels in figther and armor training, I can wear a Mithral Breastplate without penalties.

[Psyren]

Eww, core-only...

If you must play a core-only skillmonkey, go for rogue/wizard/Arcane Trickster.

[Spore]

Eww, core-only...

If you must play a core-only skillmonkey, go for rogue/wizard/Arcane Trickster.

Can't second this enough. But this build hits its weak spot from 4 to 8.