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View Full Version : Spellcasting variants: spell points, metamagic and more



brian c
2007-04-07, 07:49 PM
This post is pretty long, but I'm gonna list my main points here first. I want to balance spontaneous casters with prepared casters; specifically to make the sorceror as strong as the wizard. I'm aware that Wizards are pretty much the strongest class in the game, but I want to make those two classes equal and then nerf them both by nerfing the spell lists and disallowing rods of metamagic (almost every "win button" I've heard for Wizards seem to involve a Sudden Maximized Time Stop via a metmagic rod). Also, I'm trying to have everything make sense with the "fluff" too. Here's what I'm basically saying in this thread:


Spontaneous casters use the spell points variant (prepared casters do not)
Sorcerors don't need to pay attention to spell levels, whenever possible
Spontaneous casters can use metamagic without increasing the spell level, only spending more spell points
No casting time increase for metamagic
Ability to spend less points on a spell in order to decrease damage
Use the Vitalizing variant on Spell Points to let casters spend more spell points, at a cost of fatigue/exhaustion/loss of consciousness.
Limit on the number of spell points that can be spend on one spell
Sorceror's draconic blood (which is what gives them magical talent) makes them better at using certain spells (by energy type)



I'm working on a campaign setting and trying to figure out how I want spellcasters to be. My idea is to have spontaneous casters work with spell points, and prepared casters by spell slots (ie standard D&D). This is mostly for fluff/flavor reasons; sorcerors are supposed to have magic essentially in their blood, and I don't like spell levels being a "visible" mechanic for them. What I mean is that with spell points, a sorceror doesn't need to know or care what level a spell is because all his spells drain from the same reserve of "spell points", his magical capacity. As they increase in levels, the sorceror gaines access to more powerful spells but they don't need to look at it as "this spell is level 3, i can cast it now" the way a wizard does. Wizards have learned magic, it is not inborn. Wizards need to categorize and separate spells, but sorcerors shouldn't.

(note: when I say sorceror, I'd probably have the same things apply to any spontaneous spellcasters, I just say sorceror for convenience and because I'm mainly thinking of them)

Metamagic and spell point expenditure
Now that I got that off of my chest, I'll get to the metamagic part. Going along the same ideas about spontaneous magic, how would they go about metamagicking? It should just be an expenditure of more spellpoints in order to make the spell more powerful, but still not paying any attention to the "spell level", so kinda what Unearthed Arcana says but not exactly. I don't think I've made myself clear, but here's an example that might help: According to the UA rules, a sorceror casting an Empowered Fireball would spend 9 spell points (empower does spell level +2, so it counts a a 5th level spell). Since that's a level 5 spell, the sorceror would have to be level 10 (able to cast 5th level spells), and I would do away with that. If you can cast a fireball, then you should be able to use more of your inherent magical abilities to cast a bigger fireball. To balance this out a little, metamagicked spells will cost an extra 2 spell points (per metamagic), so that Empowered Fireball would cost 11; An Empowered Enlarged Fireball would cost 15. Additionally, I would let casters spend less points to cast a weaker spell; if you can spend a point to do an extra d6 damage, why not hold back and do less damage, if you're running low on spell points or if your opponent is almost dead. One more thing to add on is that metamagicked spells would not have an increased casting time.

Whew! That was a lot to say. Two more things, then I'll give a handy recap.

Spell Point Variant: Vitalizing
I like this, kinda. I was thinking, what if spellcasters could use more than their max spell points, at the cost of fatiguing themselves? Say you let spontaneous casters cast a spell that drops them to negative spellpoints; if their negative spellpoints are less than or equal to their caster level/2, they are fatigued, between that and their level makes them exhausted, and between 1x and 2x caster level automatically drops them to -1hp, unconscious and dying. I like the idea of a party on the brink of losing a battle when a spellcaster sends out a spell to win the battle but knock himself out. This should only be used as a last resort; to prevent abuse I would rule that magical items or anything that prevent you from becoming fatigued or exhausted do not prevent this type of "magical fatigue".

With this variant, and with my general approach to metamagic, it would be necessary to limit the number of spellpoints a caster can use on one spell. I think the spell points/day for the class is a good baseline (Unearthed Arcana Table 5-3), maybe 1/2 that value.

Sorceror Heritage
This isn't related to spell points, but its just another flavor thing that I think makes sorcerors more interesting. Basically a sorceror chooses a type of Dragon to have ancestry from (possibly extended to include Fey or other magical things), and gets a corresponding energy type. The sorceror gets a +2 bonus interacting with that type of dragon (or half-dragon, etc) and all spells of that energy type cost 1 point less to cast (including if you energy substitute your favored energy instead of another kind). These benefits supplement the Draconic Heritage feats (from Dragon Magic), and can be taken along side them. This class feature DOES NOT give any sort of energy resistance, and the sorceror is NOT considered to have dragon blood for any other feats, resistances, racial bonuses, etc. A sorceror with this variant doesn't get a familiar.
(Psst, Fax Celestis: I noticed the sorceror variant on your website is incomplete but has some sort of heritage; I wouldn't mind having your input on anything, but I'm particularly interested in what you think about this since it seems as though you may have thought of something kinda similar)

brian c
2007-04-08, 12:18 AM
:elan: bump, bump, bump the post in hopes that someone will reply to it

seriously though, anyone? questions, comments, concerns, jeers, cheers...?

Ionari
2007-04-08, 11:40 AM
I'm aware that Wizards are pretty much the strongest class in the game, but I want to make those two classes equal and then nerf them both by nerfing the spell lists and disallowing rods of metamagic

What kind of nerfing are you planning for the spell lists?

I like the overall theme of your mechanics; though it seems like it might make the sorcerer a little *too* powerful relative to the wizard.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-08, 12:05 PM
It's a wilder/psion sorceror. Is the standard spells known the same?

Furthermore, I worry that the obscene versitility granted by this would be akin to that of the psion power list compared to the wiz/sorc list.

brian c
2007-04-08, 01:46 PM
What kind of nerfing are you planning for the spell lists?

I like the overall theme of your mechanics; though it seems like it might make the sorcerer a little *too* powerful relative to the wizard.

Well, as people have pointed out in the past, when D&D 3.x was playtested at WotC they apparently used blaster-type spellcasters (evokers, and the reason why fireball is always mentioned as being an example spell). The game is balanced for blasting, not for Batmans. I want to take away or modify most battlefield control and Save-or-Die spells, and I feel that banning Rods of metamagic will prevent a lot of cheese.

When you say that this makes the Sorceror overpowered compared to the Wizard, why so? The Wizard still has more spells known and learns higher level spells earlier. According to fluff though, doesn't it make sense that the people with inherent magical ability might be a little better at using magic than people who've studied a lot? As a side note, I'd like to figure out a system sometime where a Sorceror can take levels in Wizard and have the spell levels stack; someone with natural talent decides to start studying to be able to use magic better, it makes sense but the mechanics of it to keep it from being overpowered are difficult.

illathid
2007-04-08, 06:13 PM
Could you expand on the sorcerer spells known part (specifically why they wouldn't need to know what level a spell is)?

The other thing you could do for spell exhaustion is to let the caster take non-lethal damage instead of using spell points. That way the mechanics are already built into the system.

brian c
2007-04-08, 07:30 PM
Okay, so this is what I mean with sorcerors and spell levels, really this is just about metamagic.


The examples I give above are about an Empowered Fireball. In regular D&D rules, this is a 3rd level spell +2, so it takes a 5th level slot. A 6th level sorceror can cast Fireball, but not Empowered Fireball. I say that if you can cast fireball, then you should be able to use a little more magic (spell points) to cast a bigger or stronger fireball. Hence, in my system, a 6th level sorceror can cast Empowered Fireball but it costs them 11 spell points (5 for a 3rd level spell, +2 level metamagic = +4 points, then +2 additional metamagic cost).

Thinking about it now... this might make sorcerors a little bit stronger than wizards, but I think I want it that way. I do have plans to change wizards a little, but that would be just for a group of them in my campaign setting, so a player could choose to be a regular wizard not associated with that group.

Counterspin
2007-04-09, 04:00 PM
Have you considered going ahead and using the wilder from EPH? It has pretty much everything you've mentioned, plus there's lot of good sorcerous flair, such as power surges and more thorough elemental control (psionics allows you to choose the energy type of your blasting on the fly). They use a point base system, and powers scale both without meta feats and with them for tons of flexibility. At the very least, you should check the SRD for the psionic versions of spells so you don't have to do the write ups yourself.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-09, 04:11 PM
(Psst, Fax Celestis: I noticed the sorceror variant on your website is incomplete but has some sort of heritage; I wouldn't mind having your input on anything, but I'm particularly interested in what you think about this since it seems as though you may have thought of something kinda similar)

The heritages are supposed to slowly change the Sorceror into a creature of the intended type, so that a sorceror with, say, Fey heritage would gain DR/Cold Iron, a few SLAs, and would eventually become the Fey type. On the other hand, a sorceror with the Celestial heritage would gain DR/Evil, darkvision, other "outsider" traits, and would eventually become the Outsider (Good) type.