Tips for a Warblade, non-charger?

[Firechanter]

Hell-o Playground,

we're planning to kick off a 3.5 game, Red Hand of Doom in particular.
I want to play a Warblade, and normally I prefer Charger builds for that (using Maneuvers mainly for defensive purposes and buffs, not direct damage), but here the DM has expressed a certain dislike for a character that could one-shot any conceivable opponent.
Also, while Chargers certainly are awesome against "Solos", the are lacking against larger mobs, of which I suppose RHoD is going to have a few.

Other characters are not yet set; one player is thinking about a Shooting Star Ranger with either the Wizard spell ACF or a Ranger/Cleric multi. He's new to 3.5 so I'm not overly worried about his potential Cleric outshining my Warblade in my niche.

Anyway, looking for suggestions for a character concept that performs well without whipping out the full-monty charger feats. So nothing too fancy.

Ah right, we get the choice of either PB 36 or a fixed array 18 16 14 12 10 8 (which equals PB38 at the cost of flexibility). And no flaws allowed. So keep that in mind if you are tempted to suggest something overly MAD or feat-intensive. I didn't ask about LA buyoff, but would rather avoid templates anyway if possible.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Warblades are not great vs. crowds, either. There's some Iron Heart moves to mimic whirlwind attack, and later on some Tiger Claw for more attacks on a full attack. That's about it. Mostly single target strikes. Warblade is very good at destroying a solo target, though.

Ask your DM about the 2nd stance. It's at 4th level, you get 3rd level stances at 5th. See if he'll let you take it at 5th, if not, you may want to multiclass out 2 levels (in the process gaining 1 Initiator Level) before Warblade 4. Though the level 3 stances aren't that great anyway (Leaping Dragon Stance is VERY helpful if you use a lot of Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers, though).

You will want to pick 2, at most 3, disciplines to focus on. Warblade only gets 13 maneuvers and 4 stances by level 20, and some level 9's require 4 or 5 known, with similar restrictions at lower levels (some level 7's require 3 known, etc...). You just plain can't afford to dabble in everything. All 5 options have their merits...even stone dragon, though it's definitely the weakest one. Depends on preference. I personally most enjoy Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, w/ a touch of White Raven (WR Tactics is the best maneuver in the game!), it feels a lot like a Samurai, at least as portrayed in popular culture. Lots of good combos, though. Tiger Claw's bonus attacks work really nice w/ Time Stands Still from Diamond Mind, for example.

Stats: Either way works. With the array, you'd likely want Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8. With point buy, I'd go Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8. If not using any Diamond Mind, con and dex might switch in importance. Race could also affect things. Human is fine. Dwarf, Dragonborn Water Orc (if DM allows said combo), Warforged, Wood Elf (ideally w/ Fire Elf added to switch the Int penalty for a Cha penalty), Goliath if you are ok with a level adjustment.... Lots of good racial options.

[gorfnab]

What about tripping?

Human Warblade
1. Warblade - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2. Warblade
3. Warblade - EWP: Spiked Chain
4. Warblade
5. Warblade - B: Combat Reflexes
6. Warblade - Stand Still
7. Crusader
8. Crusader - (Stance: Thicket of Blades)

[Firechanter]

Yes, I'll ask about the 2nd WB stance. Normally I automatically assume it to be moved to level 5, but if he sees it differently, it's another point for multiclassing.

I'll also have to ask how the DM would rule those maneuvers like Mithral Tornado to interact with Reach weapons -- strictly by RAW they only work against adjacent foes, which would be rather useless.

Tripping is rather unreliable in my experience; too many larger monsters with monster strength etc., would require a degree of Str optimization which I'm not comfortable with, but I am in fact fond of Stand Still.

Race: as an alternative to Human, I am also considering Lesser Zenthri -- nice resistances, True Strike SLA and nice ability mods, even though the Wis bonus is rather useless. Would only work as Single- or Monk-Multiclass, though.
But still, Human remains a primary option.

Multiclass dips I'm contemplating (more or less alternatively, not all of them at once):
* Cloistered Cleric 1, trading Domains for Devotion feats (Knowledge, Travel, Animal) -- prevents me from dumping Cha because I need the Turn Attempts to fuel the Devotions.
* Barb 1 (for Pounce) if I get the greenlight for a Charger after all,
* Crusader 2 -- thanks for the tip, hadn't really thought about it but Thicket might be the ticket.
* Psychic Warrior -- Powers like Expansion might be worth it
* Monk 2 with UA variant for better bonus feats

As for feats, I wouldn't want to leave home without Power Attack. The game will probably end around level 12 so it's no use planning further ahead than that.

So, depending on how Mithral Tornado is going to get ruled (if it applied to "every foe in reach" it would be so awesome!), it might be actually worth it to take Cleave, possibly even Great Cleave (a feat that's usually useless after level 6-ish)? Or should I rely on some Caster to take care of those mooks with AoE spells?

Damn, I'm so used to playing with extra feats (either through flaws or per enhanced progression) that now it's really hard to pick a route...

[HyperDunkBarkly]

unless your DM is overhauling it drastically, there really aren't that many big creatures in RHOD. there's some bosses and a few mobs that a lot of groups can handle.

[Darrin]

Maybe try unarmed?

Race: Strongheart Halfling.
1) Battle Dancer 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike. Bonus: TWF.
2) Warblade 1.
3) Warblade 2. Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike.
4) Warblade 3.
5) Warblade 4.
6) Fighter 1. Feat: Snap Kick. Bonus: Improved TWF.
etc.

You didn't mention what sources were available. City-Brawler ACF (Dragon #349) is all sorts of awesomesauce for out-monking the monk.

Or maybe a Mage-Slayer build:

Race: Human
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Quick Recovery. FE Arcanists. Trap Expert ACF, Spiritual Connection ACF.
2) Dragon Totem Barbarian 1. Bonus: Blind Fight. Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity ACF.
3) Warblade 1. Feat: Mage Slayer.
4) Warblade 2.
5) Warblade 3.
6) Warblade 4. Feat: Pierce Magical Concealment.
etc.

[Firechanter]

Ah, no small races, because I don't like them.

Pretty sure I needn't even ask about Dragon Mag -- the DM would rather prefer to limit the available sources, but there's no definite white- or blacklist.

I suppose I can use any of the more common books, i.e. Completes, PHB2, XPH, and the more common FR setting books should be fair game (he always DMs in the Forgotten Realms).

The Mage-Slayer build might be workable; I'll put it on my list. ^^

[Rebel7284]

Dragonborn Water Orc with Entangling Exhalation as a feat? Debuff you enemies before coming in swinging.

[Darrin]

Ah, no small races, because I don't like them.


I suggested Strongheart Halfing because if you're using Superior Unarmed Strike to advance your unarmed damage by character level, it's roughly the same damage progression as a small-sized monk. Since Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't care what your size is, human would work just as well... except he'd have the same unarmed damage as a small-sized monk.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane are intentionally just adjacent and not within reach, since then combined w/ being just a standard action and not requiring half a dozen godawful feats to obtain, they'd make Whirlwind Attack look like utter dogcrap.

Mind you, the problem is that WWA *is* utter dogcrap. But unless the DM is open to buffing WWA, I wouldn't expect him to buff MT and AH.

In any case, you might want to consider Swordsage if you care about fighting lots of enemies, it gets more stuff for that, though still not much. Or you could just multiclass the two, they gel well together. The problem is, all the actual good swordsage AoE and multi-target swordsage maneuvers tend to be around level 6+ (ie, initiator level 11ish). Desert Tempest, Ring of Fire, Ballista Throw (only 6d6, but no save for half)... Death Mark at level 3 is decent.

[gorfnab]

The Mage-Slayer build might be workable; I'll put it on my list. ^^

Here is a Mage Slayer Warblade mixed build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.

[Firechanter]

Well, admittedly, MT/AH with a "within Reach" range would be too tempting to pull some shenanigans to gain ~30ft Reach and clear >100 mooks in one round. But just 5' is just a bit too lame. 10' would be ideal. Okay, whatever.

Let's talk a bit about optimizing Damage output, shall we?

The last Warblade build that I made had the Ubercharger feat combo (Shock Trooper / Leap Attack), used Pouncebarian Dip, Knowledge Devotion, a Valorous weapon, Bounding Assault and the Mongoose maneuvers. Damage output at level 12 ~130 per hit, times however many attacks he could pile on.

Compared to that, the damage output I seem to be looking at without these feats appears a bit underwhelming. On a Charge, with the WR6 maneuver and a Valorous Weapon, something like maybe 100dmg total? And on not-charge attacks, much less extra damage. Maybe I'm just spoiled.
But at least I now know that Pouncing Charge isn't really worth it, compared to War Leader's Charge. Unless I'm missing anything?

[Troacctid]

Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane are intentionally just adjacent and not within reach, since then combined w/ being just a standard action and not requiring half a dozen godawful feats to obtain, they'd make Whirlwind Attack look like utter dogcrap.

Not the case for Steel Wind though.

[Firechanter]

Oh, another update -- apparently my DM has a different version of the whole module; he says his copy reads it's "for characters of levels 5-10", instead of the "6-12" I see on every cover shot on the web.

So if he's not just messing with me, I have to look for a build that will come into its own well before 10th level.

[Firechanter]

OK the DM just confirmed: he won't be counting XP, but announce levelups at what he considers appropriate milestones; while upgrading the encounters because he feels they are too easy by default, and the campaign will end at level 10.

On the plus side, we will always get exactly the gear we want (within WBL). Maybe with shopping opportunities at the levelup points, I guess.

So I suppose I will go plain Warblade and skill for whatever maneuvers offer max eff at levels 9-10 (AFB atm).

[Firechanter]

*bump*

Okay, now I know more about the rest of the group, and I have also decided that I want to stick to single-class Warblade, resisting the temptation of some very attractive dips (like Barbarian and Cloistered Cleric). Think of it as self-imposed handicap in order not to outshine the newbie players.

Oh and one thing I should also note is that the DM likes to give out lots of wealth; we're talking about probably x2 or x3 regular WBL, we haven't determined a definitive factor yet. However, regular item price limits remain in place (i.e. no item should be worth more than 1/3 regular WBL or whatever it was). So we just get a wider selection of toys to choose from.

The rest of the party will consist of:
- Dwarven Ranger/Psion/Illithid Slayer
- Human Ranger/Cleric/Wind Walker [going for Archery]
- (probably) Whisper Gnome Factotum/Chameleon [this is the only other experienced 3.5 player]

However, I'm still unsure about my feats. Flaws are out, and I don't want to multiclass, so I have to make do with the regular progression plus Human bonus feat.

Current outline (order may change according to needs):
R: Stand Still
1: Power Attack
3: Mage Slayer
B5: Combat Reflexes
6: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (going for Meteor Hammer, i.e. Spiked Chain in Bludgeoning)
B9: Blind Fight
9: Pierce Magical Concealment

[keep in mind this is for a RHoD game, so we'll start at 5 and end around 10ish.]

However, the DM has expressed some concerns that this was a rather "hard build" and it might be too dominant for this group's op level, because I'd basically force most encounters into the same pattern.

So, while I can play this build if I want to, I'd like to look at alternatives as well.
Also, I'd really like to squeeze in Knowledge Devotion, even though I could only max two Knowledge skills (Local and Arcane). But that's really hard to do without giving in to the Dark Side and dipping Cloistered Cleric (which would net me two additional feats on top if I play my cards right).

So in short, if I want K-Dev I need to kick something else. But what?
- Power Attack? Completely indispensable.
- Stand Still? I'd give up most Control I have and make combat decidedly less tactical -- it would mostly devolve to "taking turns at kicking each other in the shin until one side falls over".
- EWP? I might do with a Ranseur and Armor Spikes, but experience teaches us that you always end up adjacent to some foes and then you're stuck with a Light weapon that can't benefit from TH bonuses or Power Attack.
- Mage Slayer? Possible, though I was looking forward to being The Bane of Casters. Also, if I swap out that feat, I need a replacement for Pierce Magical Concealment as well.

If I dropped Stand Still, one might argue I could as well drop EWP too and maybe even use a Greatsword instead of a Reach weapon. So I'd need competely different feats again.

I also considered going for Karmic Strike, which however would require not only 2 prereq feats, but also shuffling my Ability scores to a point where I can't use the Champion Array anymore (using PB36 instead and probably losing my Str 18).

Any insight or suggestions?

[Firechanter]

C'mon guys, I'm having a really hard time deciding here, give me some feedback please! =D

By now, the alternatives have boiled down to these two variants:

A: "Witch Hunter"
Feats:
R Exotic Weapon Proficiency
1 Power Attack
3 Stand Still
6 Mage Slayer
9 Pierce Magical Concealment

and

B: "Bounty Hunter"
Feats:
R Exotic Weapon Proficiency
1 Power Attack
3 Knowledge Devotion
6 Stand Still
9 Martial Study: Shadow Stride

[A] would really make a zone of death against casters, leaving them no good options: they can't cast defensively, they can't move out of my control zone, and if they try to cast anyway they eat damage, most likely making their spell fizzle. Also, at level 9 he'd just laugh at invisibility, mirror image and similar shenanigans.

[B] would still have decent lockdown, and a damage output roughly 30% improved over the other build (against the expected main enemy types), which is nothing to sneeze at -- all from a single feat. Killing things faster is always good. The added mobility at level 9 is also yummy.

So in short, I can't decide. :p

[StreamOfTheSky]

Without a ton of skill points and class skill knowledges, A is definitely the better choice.

Have you looked at Stormguard Warrior (it's in ToB)? It's another thing to do w/ your AoOs, and the tactic to deliver non-damaging touch attacks to set up pain the next round can be fun, too. (You'd want to combo it into a full attack with a boost maneuver, or Ruby Nightmare Blade's double damage).

You could also make a non-reach build and still do tripping, you wouldn't even need Combat Reflexes, though you would need some new feats. Build for Elusive Target (from C.Warrior). You'd need Dodge and Mobility, the latter is a +1 armor enhancement in MIC if you really do have so much wealth. +1 Mobility Chain shirt would be 4250 gp. Elusive Target's dodge-based tactics to make your dodge buddy get no benefit from power attack and to hit his ally instead of you when he flanks you are classic trolls that gladden the heart. But the hidden gem is the mobility-based tactic, "Cause Overreach." If you provoke an AoO for moving and the foe misses, you get a free immediate trip against them, and it is not an AoO...but it WOULD trigger Imp. Trip's bonus attack. Since Warblade has a lot of standard action strike maneuvers, you can do those and provoke AoOs w/ a move easily. It is one of those things that will only work a few times each combat before foes get wise to your trick, though, other than very stupid / mindless foes.

By the way, you seem to be leaving the Warblade bonus feats (at 5 and 9) out of your builds. They're not the best options, but can help you meet pre-reqs for better feats.

[A_S]

Build A looks like it's missing Combat Reflexes. Or am I missing something?

[Firechanter]

The former question is the answer to the latter; my bonus feats will be Combat Reflexes and Blind Fight, at least for the currently planned builds.

I'll have to have a look at Elusive Target, that does sound hilarious. Thanks for the idea. :)

[atemu1234]

You can Dip up to four times and still get ninth level maneuvers. So fighter 2 / spirit lion totem barbarian 1 / maybe monk 1 / warblade.