Wizards underwhelming?

[Vortling]

My group is currently mid 3rd level and I'm running into frustrations with my wizard. My expectation going into playing a wizard is that I would have a versatile suite of options for dealing with different situations, but that I would excel specifically in situations where area damage or control would be useful. I took spells aiming towards these goals, grease, sleep, etc. Our group consists of a fighter, a beastmaster ranger, a pair of monks, a moon circle druid, a rogue, a warlock, and my conjurer wizard. Perhaps you can see the issue already. If not, here it is. I find that with initiative being as random as it is in this edition I rarely go before our melee combatants. Which means all of our melee combatants have engaged the enemy before I get to act. This renders nearly all my spells pointless as I either risk hitting allies or by the time initiative reaches me most of the enemy combatants have been incapacitated. This is in no small part exacerbated by the way opportunity attacks function in this edition which allows our melee combatants to thread themselves in between the enemy combatants. They don't seem to be doing it to thwart me specifically, but more to allow all the other melee combatants room to attack.

This leaves me using my subpar damage firebolt cantrip for the majority of my combat actions and I'm getting entirely sick of it. In this campaign I've cast sleep once. Out of all the goblins in the target area, it incapacitated one. I've also cast grease once. It rendered one enemy prone. Have I mentioned that I'm really sick of casting firebolt? I have Ray of Frost, but with over half the group charging into melee every combat the slow effect would have been wasted in every combat. I looked into picking up Acid Splash, but it runs into issue of when I go last there aren't any enemies next to each other as they tend to be incapacitated. It doesn't help either that both monks have gone open hand, rendering it pointless for me to take any spell that grants advantage to allies on creatures as anything they attack will end up prone sooner or later without daily resource expenditure. It further doesn't help that the fighter is a dragonborn who usually leads with his breath weapon whenever it is available.

Overall I feel that in the situations where a wizard should be able to shine, that it's just not worth the spell expenditure. Even when I do roll high on initiative, why spend a casting of sleep on the 6 goblins we're against when it will only take out 1 or 2 and I know that the melee combatants will on average take out 1 goblin per turn. Seems like a waste of a spell cast, especially when I've got a whole 3 or 4 of them and there are hints that a boss fight is coming up later (bugbear, big leader dude, dragon, etc, we're running Lost Mines of Phandelver).

TL;DR Playing a wizard feels underwhelming as I feel like my spells and cantrips are frequently pointless and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to fix it.

[JNAProductions]

Part of it might be you're in a huge group. The recomended party size is four, and the groups I've run typically don't have that many people in melee.

[Strill]

Yeah it sounds to me like it's not your class, it's just that your party isn't being challenged enough in the first place.

[SharkForce]

does sleep not target the lowest HP first? could've swore it did. unless your party is consistently at low HP, you should be able to just drop a sleep right in the middle of them and watch low HD creatures fall asleep no problem.

anyways, you may find you get better mileage out of more targeted spells for your specific purposes. hold person will really set targets up for a beating if you have a bunch of melees around them.

[Galen]

This is what happens when an 8 PC group is playing an adventure made for 4 PCs. Of course the melee characters are capable of winning every encounter all by themselves, and the wizard, with his limited slots, is apprehensive to use them "because he might need them later". No offense, they just don't need your limited spell slots when they can solve every problem by swinging a sword at it. It's not your mistake. It's the DM's.

What you need is a DM who's not afraid to throw something more challenging at the party. So that they would, you know, actually need the wizard.

[jaydubs]

It sounds like your group is basically just steamrolling encounters, since there are twice as many PCs as the adventure is designed for. Whenever encounters are extremely easy, combats turn from a tactical challenge to a race to see who can get the most kills. If that's what's happening, you basically have a few choices.

1. Talk to your DM, and see if he agrees and is willing to adjust up the difficulty of the encounters for the larger party. This is the best option (if that's the real problem).
2. Find a way to shine out of combat instead. Invisibility, scouting, flight, etc.
3. Talk to your party about it. They might not realize they're blocking spells if they don't know you're trying to cast AoEs. Don't expect them to always go way out of their way to accommodate you. But every once in awhile, it might make it easier to do your stuff.
4. Embrace the race to kill things, and just select spells that let you try to kill things before your teammates do. You might even try boosting initiative to get better use out of AoE spells.

[Vortling]

The immediate consensus I'm seeing is that 8 PCs is way too many for an unadjusted Lost Mines. I don't have the DMG so what sort of numbers and creature cr are we looking at to challenge that many PCs to the point that a wizard would be useful? I'd like to have an idea of the size of combats I should be recommending to my DM.

On the wizard front, I'm considering the Alertness feat since my AC rarely comes into play and I'm at an odd number for my Int (15, yay mountain dwarf). And I do mean rarely. I think I've had creatures attack me once since we started. Which is one of the upsides of that many melee combatants. Should I continue with the AoE focus or look more for single targeted spells? I technically have hold person from a captured spellbook, but I haven't amassed the treasure to copy it over yet.

[calebrus]

The immediate consensus I'm seeing is that 8 PCs is way too many for an unadjusted Lost Mines.

I kind of thought that went without saying. Recommended party size is almost always 4 or 5 for published adventures. Your party is literally twice that size. That's why you aren't seeing the value of a wizard. It has nothing to do with the class, but with the party/adventure/lack-of-danger combo that you seem to have going.

[Chronos]

The other thing is that wizards are designed to have a lot of out-of-combat utility. If you just want to do combat, a sorcerer is better, but a wizard is much better equipped for everything else, between the second-best ritual ability in the game, spells with out-of-combat utility, most of the specialization options, etc.

[Galen]

The immediate consensus I'm seeing is that 8 PCs is way too many for an unadjusted Lost Mines. I don't have the DMG so what sort of numbers and creature cr are we looking at to challenge that many PCs to the point that a wizard would be useful? I'd like to have an idea of the size of combats I should be recommending to my DM.
The "Building Combat Encounters" section, in the DMG and the free PDF (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMBasicRulesv.0.3_PrinterFriendly.pdf) has some great guidelines. Also make sure he doesn't miss the "Party Size" subsection (it's easy to miss if you're skimming).


Party Size
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party
consisting of three to five adventurers.
If the party contains fewer than three characters,
apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter
Multipliers table. For example, apply a multiplier of
1.5 when the characters fight a single monster, and a
multiplier of 5 for groups of fifteen or more monsters.
If the party contains six or more characters, use the
next lowest multiplier on the table. Use a multiplier of
0.5 for a single monster.This one is kind of a big deal.

[calebrus]

The "Building Combat Encounters" section, in the DMG and the free PDF (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMBasicRulesv.0.3_PrinterFriendly.pdf) has some great guidelines. Also make sure he doesn't miss the "Party Size" subsection (it's easy to miss if you're skimming).

<snip>If the party contains six or more characters, use the
next lowest multiplier on the table. Use a multiplier of
0.5 for a single monster.
This one is kind of a big deal.

I can't reinforce this enough. Our group fluctuates between 4-7 players depending on who can make it and who has other obligations that week. It's usually 5 or 6. But that means I have to calculate two different XP totals (and therefore two different difficulties) for every combat, because I never know until that day whether it will be 5 or 6 (or 4 or 7, depending).

If I want to pose a particularly tough or semi-deadly encounter, I have to create two entirely different fights and then use the one that's appropriate for the group size. It's easy enough to do (if the group is 6 or 7 that week, add <this> to the encounter), but using the wrong one makes it either easier than I wanted.... or an almost certain wipe. Fights that I want to be difficult are the biggest headache for a group on the cusp of party size difficulty like that.

It's pretty clear that your DM has either missed this text, or is ignoring it. I'd point it out to him and then the fights will probably become more involved for not only you, but everyone else as well.

[RedMage125]

The "Building Combat Encounters" section, in the DMG and the free PDF (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMBasicRulesv.0.3_PrinterFriendly.pdf) has some great guidelines. Also make sure he doesn't miss the "Party Size" subsection (it's easy to miss if you're skimming).

This one is kind of a big deal.

I run a game with 5 players, and they're fairly well organized and tactically-minded. I find that in order to challenge them, I use the next lowest modifier with a group of 5. If I don't, I end up not challenging them with "Hard" encounters, but nearly doing them in with "Deadly" ones. I use the next lowest modifier (as if there were 6 of them), and try to keep encounters in the (adjusted) Medium/Hard range, with bigger fights being at the high end of Hard (maybe skirting Deadly) range. It works out for me.

For what it's worth, my group is Battlemnaster Fighter (Greatweapon style), Arcane Trickster (TWF in melee, otherwise throws darts), War Priest, Dragon Sorc (Gold), and an Open Hand Monk. At level 4, low on spell slots and at about 1/2 hp, they wiped the floor with an encounter consisting of 6 hobgoblins, 2 Hobgoblin Sergeants (slightly modified Hobgoblin, CR1), and 2 Direwolves.

[TheOOB]

Another note is that wizard really hit's their stride at level 5, third level spells are a big deal to them.

[Kane0]

Just wait until level 5 or 7, when you get your big guns. The melee with their fancy extra attack will start becoming envious of your fireballs and other mighty magics.
And make sure you get yourself some handy rituals too. Your party will love you after you learn things like Leomund's Tiny Hut.

[Mandragola]

Back in 3rd edition I played a wizard in a party with two barbarians and a cleric. They would never wait for me to cast spells before charging in, often attacking large groups of monsters and taking lots of damage. In the end I just started fireballing them as well. That got their attention!

I've taken careful spell for the sorceror I'm now playing, so I can cast spells without messing up the group. I'd only drop an aoe damage spell on them as a last resort but for control stuff like confusion the ability to have party members auto-pass is great.

[Stan]

It also helps if the group uses teamwork and has a few standard rules or tactics - your group is large enough that they don't need to bother. If you do things like have melee people throw missiles round 1 if they go before the casters or have them rush the left while casters nullify the right, it's much easier for casters to get their spells off.

[Person_Man]

Many different spells and class abilities require certain tactics to be useful. If your party basically just ignores tactics and rushes the enemy, then it shouldn't surprise you that many of your spells would be useless.

For example, in many ways playing a Rogue or Shadow Monk is all about Stealth. If your party basically ignores stealth, scouting, rally points, ambushes, etc, then a lot of your abilities will go unused.

[FightStyles]

Eh, just hit em' with the AoE's anyways. There's 8 of you so if you knock them unconcious, there is bound to be someone to heal them. It'll create some tension among the group and ultimately provide you with more fun. Play it off like your character didn't do it on purpose or they were in the way or you thought it was a different spell or any other excuse you want ect. , but don't feel bad if you do it too many times and your alignment switches to neutral evil. Eventually, the party will probably kick you out or kill you, then just choose a murderhobo class. =-]

[DireSickFish]

You have clearly outlined the strengths of the build you are going for: AoE and control. It feels underwhelming because your party constantly puts you into predicaments where they are not effective(AoE) or needed(control). You are also not at a level it sounds like to get the "good" AoE spells. Fireball used on a group is a game changer.

With your huge group having that focus is not going to be beneficial. Start taking spells that help out your allies or provide utility to the group. The front-line can handle itself and keep you form ever needing to use a spell other than a cantrip on combat.

Detect Magic should be your niche and is a ritual for sussing out problems. Feather Fall can be used to save everyone but the monks from fall damage, or to just get down from someplace quickly. Detect Thoughts can provide critical intel or find hiding targets. Enlarge is a good buff on one of your monks. Invisibility will help your scouts go anywhere to do there scouting. Rope trick will be loved by your monks and warlock as its a good place to short rest.

Focus on out of combat spells and you will find yourself a niche. Unless the DM is just treating it as a combat sim and not properly challenging the group then it wont really matter what you do.

[Myzz]

If your going to 'drop bombs' in combat... then you should be an Evoker!

Level 2 you get sculpt spell

you can create pockets of relative savety within the effects of your evocation spells. When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1+spell level. The chosen creature(s) automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.

so, um either go Evoker... or talk your DM into making a feat that is similar...

Then drop yer bombs whenever! and (almost) wherever!

[BRC]

Yeah, you're group is way too big. With 8 players against encounters calculated for 4, whoever goes last (It sounds like that's you) is basically having their Round 1, when the Enemies have taken 3 rounds of damage.

That said, Sleep targets lowest first. It's a very powerful spell if your Melee types have waded into a swarm of enemies.

Additionally, if you are on the offensive, open combat with your AoE Spells, THEN Roll initiative and have the Melee charge in.

[asorel]

Yeah, you're group is way too big. With 8 players against encounters calculated for 4, whoever goes last (It sounds like that's you) is basically having their Round 1, when the Enemies have taken 3 rounds of damage.

That said, Sleep targets lowest first. It's a very powerful spell if your Melee types have waded into a swarm of enemies.

Additionally, if you are on the offensive, open combat with your AoE Spells, THEN Roll initiative and have the Melee charge in.

I wouldn't immediately say that the group is 'too big.' They aren't for everyone, but, if encounters are adjusted appropriately, and the right DM, large groups can work perfectly fine. I'm in a party that has 10 participants, and between 6 and 8 players per session. There was some friction at first, but we're doing quite well.

[Vortling]

Replying to a bunch of you


Many different spells and class abilities require certain tactics to be useful. If your party basically just ignores tactics and rushes the enemy, then it shouldn't surprise you that many of your spells would be useless.

For example, in many ways playing a Rogue or Shadow Monk is all about Stealth. If your party basically ignores stealth, scouting, rally points, ambushes, etc, then a lot of your abilities will go unused.

Yes, your first paragraph really nails it. The surprising part to me is the no tactics enemy rush part as we've just finished up a 4e campaign that ran to epic and everyone played quite tactically in that campaign. That said our DM did email everyone after the first 5e session indicating his preference was for everyone to consider what their character would do roleplay-wise rather than tactically. Most of our combat planning chatter dropped off after that.


You have clearly outlined the strengths of the build you are going for: AoE and control. It feels underwhelming because your party constantly puts you into predicaments where they are not effective(AoE) or needed(control). You are also not at a level it sounds like to get the "good" AoE spells. Fireball used on a group is a game changer.

With your huge group having that focus is not going to be beneficial. Start taking spells that help out your allies or provide utility to the group. The front-line can handle itself and keep you form ever needing to use a spell other than a cantrip on combat.

Detect Magic should be your niche and is a ritual for sussing out problems. Feather Fall can be used to save everyone but the monks from fall damage, or to just get down from someplace quickly. Detect Thoughts can provide critical intel or find hiding targets. Enlarge is a good buff on one of your monks. Invisibility will help your scouts go anywhere to do there scouting. Rope trick will be loved by your monks and warlock as its a good place to short rest.

Focus on out of combat spells and you will find yourself a niche. Unless the DM is just treating it as a combat sim and not properly challenging the group then it wont really matter what you do.

I have some rituals already (unseen servant, find familiar, identify) but they have yet to see use. I'll look into picking up Detect Magic though the warlock already has it. I admit I was hoping to avoid the team helping due to the way the concentration mechanic nerfed team buffing. On a related note this campaign is the first time in a long while I've played a character that wasn't intended to take the buffing and team help options. I'm usually the team cleric or whichever class has the buff options and this was my attempt to break from that and try something new ish.


If your going to 'drop bombs' in combat... then you should be an Evoker!

Level 2 you get sculpt spell


so, um either go Evoker... or talk your DM into making a feat that is similar...

Then drop yer bombs whenever! and (almost) wherever!

I had considered this, but conjurer fit better with the character concept I have going now. Dwarf creator of things and all that.


Yeah, you're group is way too big. With 8 players against encounters calculated for 4, whoever goes last (It sounds like that's you) is basically having their Round 1, when the Enemies have taken 3 rounds of damage.

That said, Sleep targets lowest first. It's a very powerful spell if your Melee types have waded into a swarm of enemies.

Additionally, if you are on the offensive, open combat with your AoE Spells, THEN Roll initiative and have the Melee charge in.

Thank you for the analysis in your first part. It has given me a good set of words to explain the situation simply. As far as the AoE before initiative our DM hasn't let us do anything like that yet. Even surprise rounds have initiative rolls.

Our game is about twice a month so there won't be a game for around a week. Until then I have food for thought.

[Psikerlord]

My group is currently mid 3rd level and I'm running into frustrations with my wizard. My expectation going into playing a wizard is that I would have a versatile suite of options for dealing with different situations, but that I would excel specifically in situations where area damage or control would be useful. I took spells aiming towards these goals, grease, sleep, etc. Our group consists of a fighter, a beastmaster ranger, a pair of monks, a moon circle druid, a rogue, a warlock, and my conjurer wizard. Perhaps you can see the issue already. If not, here it is. I find that with initiative being as random as it is in this edition I rarely go before our melee combatants. Which means all of our melee combatants have engaged the enemy before I get to act. This renders nearly all my spells pointless as I either risk hitting allies or by the time initiative reaches me most of the enemy combatants have been incapacitated. This is in no small part exacerbated by the way opportunity attacks function in this edition which allows our melee combatants to thread themselves in between the enemy combatants. They don't seem to be doing it to thwart me specifically, but more to allow all the other melee combatants room to attack.

This leaves me using my subpar damage firebolt cantrip for the majority of my combat actions and I'm getting entirely sick of it. In this campaign I've cast sleep once. Out of all the goblins in the target area, it incapacitated one. I've also cast grease once. It rendered one enemy prone. Have I mentioned that I'm really sick of casting firebolt? I have Ray of Frost, but with over half the group charging into melee every combat the slow effect would have been wasted in every combat. I looked into picking up Acid Splash, but it runs into issue of when I go last there aren't any enemies next to each other as they tend to be incapacitated. It doesn't help either that both monks have gone open hand, rendering it pointless for me to take any spell that grants advantage to allies on creatures as anything they attack will end up prone sooner or later without daily resource expenditure. It further doesn't help that the fighter is a dragonborn who usually leads with his breath weapon whenever it is available.

Overall I feel that in the situations where a wizard should be able to shine, that it's just not worth the spell expenditure. Even when I do roll high on initiative, why spend a casting of sleep on the 6 goblins we're against when it will only take out 1 or 2 and I know that the melee combatants will on average take out 1 goblin per turn. Seems like a waste of a spell cast, especially when I've got a whole 3 or 4 of them and there are hints that a boss fight is coming up later (bugbear, big leader dude, dragon, etc, we're running Lost Mines of Phandelver).

TL;DR Playing a wizard feels underwhelming as I feel like my spells and cantrips are frequently pointless and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to fix it.
I think your party is just too big. 8 is way too many. You'll always be hitting an ally with your AoE. Either go evoker, for that AoE ally exception ability, or split your game into 2. One with 4 players + DM, one with 3 + DM.

Game cant handle 8 players.