Let's break down a giant's door!

[Inevitability]

While reading through HotDQ, I came across the following thing:


Blagothkus has secured the door to this tower with an arcane lock. It can be opened normally by a giant or by the knock spell. For everyone else, breaking it down is largely impossible, because a DC 70 strength check is required.

So, what's a proper min-maxer do here? Find out a way to destroy that door, of course! Assuming all sorts of crazy optimization, can you hit the DC?

[Daishain]

Best possible Str bonus, thanks to a potion of storm giant strength or the equivalent belt: +9

Call it an Athletics check, and get a character with expertise in said skill: additional +12

Get guidance cast on you: additional 1d4

I'm pretty sure that's it though, this edition really isn't made for ability check minmaxing. max possible DC: 20+12+9+4=45, well short of the goal.

Do recall that the highest DC suggested by WOTC, listed as impossible, is 30.

[SharkForce]

you can add inspiration to the mix. good for another 1d12.

alternately, you could just polymorph into a giant :P

[hymer]

Maybe the alternative skill system, where you get a your proficiency bonus to all checks depending on one score? Don't really recall the wording on that one.
Enhance Ability won't change the math either, but at least will make it more likely you'll get a good roll with advantage.


alternately, you could just polymorph into a giant :P

To be perfectly pedantic, standard polymorph can only change you into a Beast, not a Giant. :smallsmile:

[Daishain]

you can add inspiration to the mix. good for another 1d12.

alternately, you could just polymorph into a giant :P
Polymorphing into a giant would be the easy way if knock or dispel magic is off the table for some reason, but he was hoping for someone to actually meet the DC

As for inspiration, I wasn't including it because that's an optional thing, and I for one would hesitate before giving inspiration points to someone I know is out to abuse the limits of what can be done.

But sure, another +12 for 57 on a single REALLY lucky set of rolls, but more likely closer to 40, then the inspiration is gone, and we're back to the repeatable items mentioned before.

[hymer]

As for inspiration, I wasn't including it because that's an optional thing, and I for one would hesitate before giving inspiration points to someone I know is out to abuse the limits of what can be done.

I think he's referring to the bard's ability.

[AvatarVecna]

In 5th edition, where bounded accuracy is adhered to zealously, "DC 70" anything is just another way of saying "It's made out of Phlebotonium and can only be bypassed by the listed methods". This becomes obvious to anyone investigating the sentence you've quoted: neither method listed is actually capable of opening this door when it's arcane lock'd...at least not if we're playing by the rules. Beyond that, it also rules out any methods of opening the door the way a giant would (that is, using a high-up door handle or something) or any other method of opening the door other than "break it down", such as "go around it somehow".


Blagothkus has secured the door to this tower with an arcane lock. It can be opened normally by a giant or by the knock spell. For everyone else, breaking it down is largely impossible, because a DC 70 strength check is required.

To clarify: this oversized door has been secured with an arcane lock. By the rules, the arcane lock spell adds 10 to the DC to break the door down, meaning its normal break DC should logically be DC 60. Not even a Storm Giant can touch that check, even at their best! Hell, even the optimized Athletics check up there can't touch that! As for the knock spell?


If you choose a target that is held shut with arcane lock, that spell is suppressed for 10 minutes, during which time the target can be opened and shut normally.

"[arcane lock] is suppressed"; that's all knock does to a door with arcane lock on it. Knock only automatically opens/unlocks any mundanely-locked thing. Since this isn't mundanely-locked, knock shouldn't open it on its own.

This isn't meant to be a serious DC, it's meant to be "DC: you fail" to keep the PCs from going this way. Stupid railroading sons of...anyway. I suggest (if you actually played this and the DM was willing) to either get the DM to change the DC so that it's technically possible, but would take tons of tries, or to give the door an appropriate level of HP and hardness (or whatever the 5e equivalent is).

[Jakinbandw]

It looks like whoever wrote that thought they were writing for 3.5.

[Solusek]

A DC of 70 isn't something that should even exist for a *DOOR* under any reasonable circumstance. Unless that door was literally just 18 inches of solid steel completely welded into the surrounding stone I don't see how they are getting a number that high - Even then I think we would be looking at a number closer to 40 at the most. A writer adding this into the module with a DC of 70 actually bothers me. It makes me think they didn't understand the game system or what these DC's are supposed to represent.

[Person_Man]

In 5th edition, where bounded accuracy is adhered to zealously, "DC 70" anything is just another way of saying "It's made out of Phlebotonium and can only be bypassed by the listed methods".

Agreed.

I wish that 5E would move further away from legalistic descriptions and just start writing things as they intend them to be, and in plain English. They could have just written "The massively heavy door is barred by magic, and can only be opened by a Knock spell or by a giant creature."

[Kurald Galain]

I wish that 5E would move further away from legalistic descriptions and just start writing things as they intend them to be, and in plain English. They could have just written "The massively heavy door is barred by magic, and can only be opened by a Knock spell or by a giant creature."

I would like writers to move away from "plot locks" like these. If my character has a gaseous form spell or some kind of non-LOS teleport ability or even an energy sword that cuts through matter, then he should be able to bypass the door because that's what those abilities do. Saying that unlike every other door in the world, this one can only be opened by one specific ability is too railroady for my tastes.

[Vogonjeltz]

Agreed.

I wish that 5E would move further away from legalistic descriptions and just start writing things as they intend them to be, and in plain English. They could have just written "The massively heavy door is barred by magic, and can only be opened by a Knock spell or by a giant creature."

Isn't the reference to giants (not giant creatures, which could be seen as a reference to size not type) one of the exceptions given by arcane lock?

"You and the creatures you designate when you cast this spell can open the object normally."

I have nothing regarding the DC of forcing the door absent knock being a 60, but that's probably reflective of the size of the door. (The idea being that no medium sized creature is forcing a huge sized door)

[jazzymantis]

1. Wish for 130 STR roll a 20

2. True Polymorph into a Giant, open the door

3. Cast knock

4. Level 20 Cleric Divine Intervention

5. If it has HP, Monk quivering palm? I would have to hit the AC though.

6. Big dispel

7. Etherealness

8. Sphere of annihilation

9. Move Earth/Ston Shape everywhere around the door. Or something like that.

10. Not sure if this works, but reverse gravity and stack gold/ heavy stuff on the door until it is broken?

11. How heavy is the door? Telekinesis lets you move 1000 lbs

12. Ok real try at actually trying to hit that DC with a non-giant creature: First be a creature with a 30STR, I am going to pick an Empyrean (at least that could happen with Planar ally right?). Read Manual of Gainful Exercise STR Bonus +1 (Assuming it still is +1 bonus per 2 ability scores), so 31 max possible roll. Be a level 6+fiendlock use dark ones own luck to get an extra d10 to your ability check. that brings our total possible die roll to 41. Have a level 15+ bard with you and let them use bardic inspiration on you to add 1d12, so now max possible roll is 53... not bad (High charisma bard for more possible rolls). Now have a level 6+ Sorcerer use Bend luck on you to ad 1d4, so 57. (There isn't any RAW saying that you can't spam this... so if that's the case spam it, 69 sorcerers should be able to help you open the door every time I'm going to go on assuming you can't.) Then have anything that can cast a cleric cantrip cast Guidance, an other d4, so 61 (here is another one I think you can technically spam). Attune to the Stone of Luck, Another +1 to ability rolls, so 62.

Now to make it the last bit of the way we will need to take a couple of Epic Boons from the DMG. So if you can level up past 20 and get the Boon of Luck, the last d10 we need to get to 72!!!

While you are at it you might as well get a friend to get the Boon of Fate to give you one more d10 82!!! w00t

Then so you can try to do it on your first go get a friend to help you with the Help action so you get advantage, and get about 100 diviner wizards to help you with portent.


optional draw a star in the deck of many things. str bonus +1

Also not sure if this would work with belt/potion of Storm Giant Strength... I don't know how stat caps work with that. But if it would work, substitute Empyrean for this.

Also could we destroy the door a different way? Can we get an AC or HP or something else to work with? At least for that you get your proficiency bonus to hit. Bless. control weather

[Person_Man]

I would like writers to move away from "plot locks" like these. If my character has a gaseous form spell or some kind of non-LOS teleport ability or even an energy sword that cuts through matter, then he should be able to bypass the door because that's what those abilities do. Saying that unlike every other door in the world, this one can only be opened by one specific ability is too railroady for my tastes.

Yeah, I agree on this as well. I was just trying to make the general point that I prefer plain English and trust the DM/players to make decisions accordingly.

[Inevitability]

To clarify; I'm not looking for creative solutions to get past the door. I just want to know if the DC 70 is actually possible to achieve.

On the Manual of Gainful Exercise, it regains its magic after a century, right? Could a warforged sit down, read one, sing '100 bottles of beer on the wall' for a century, read it again, and repeat until a sufficiently high strength has been gotten?

[Person_Man]

On the Manual of Gainful Exercise, it regains its magic after a century, right? Could a warforged sit down, read one, sing '100 bottles of beer on the wall' for a century, read it again, and repeat until a sufficiently high strength has been gotten?

Yes, though if a player asked me if he could do that, then when he finally rejoined the rest of the world, he would find that dramatic advances in science and technology have occurred, and everyone is a cybernetically enhanced with magitech and all of their ability scores started at the same level as the Warforged player.

Which also sounds like a fun premise for a short story.

[pwykersotz]

Rich would be very upset with you if you were to break his door.

Yeah, this scenario is odd. A DC of that level makes no sense at all. I think Daishin covered most of the options I'm aware of. You could, of course, have guidance from multiple sources, allowing stacking for as long as you have allies.

Kurald: To be fair, they didn't actually say the door couldn't be bypassed by other means, at least not that was posted. They just listed the break DC. I don't know what material the door is made out of, but other spells and abilities that interact with the material should work just fine, unless I'm missing something.

Case in point, I'm pretty sure prison walls have a high break DC, but stories abound about people slowly tunnelling out of them.

[Easy_Lee]

What is the wall around the door made out of, and are the hinges visible? =D

Nah, like the others said, the DC is inordinately high. The only way I can think of is to stack multiple sources of guidance. Unless I read the spell wrong, guidance doesn't prevent the player from benefiting from other sources of guidance, nor from using more than one of said guidance on a skill. Stick it on a rogue with max strength, reliable talent, and athletics expertise for a maximum athletics roll of 37, and we'll realistically need 8 guidance casts plus a bard's inspiration to get through with any consistency.

All that said, this may be disallowed by the combining magical effects rule. We may need other sources of pluses.

[Shining Wrath]

As others have said, DC 70 in a game with bounded accuracy is more succinctly put as "the door can't be opened unless ...".

And as someone else pointed out, just because the door can't be *opened* doesn't mean you can't reach the other side of it. Can a druid Wildshape into an ant? Is the seal around the edge of the door truly air tight? Can the door be cut? What about the wall?

Having said that, I'm a firm believer that the PHB spells are only the tip of the iceberg, and important NPCs can have access to spells not listed therein because Plot. So Blagothkus might have access to the seldom-used spell "Create DC 70 door".

[DMBlackhart]

As others have said, DC 70 in a game with bounded accuracy is more succinctly put as "the door can't be opened unless ...".

And as someone else pointed out, just because the door can't be *opened* doesn't mean you can't reach the other side of it. Can a druid Wildshape into an ant? Is the seal around the edge of the door truly air tight? Can the door be cut? What about the wall?

Having said that, I'm a firm believer that the PHB spells are only the tip of the iceberg, and important NPCs can have access to spells not listed therein because Plot. So Blagothkus might have access to the seldom-used spell "Create DC 70 door".

I think the real question is, what's the rest of the building made of? I am pretty sure that (stone?) wall has a written AC/HP value. If we can minmax this high, why not just go the simpler route and bash through the wall?
Far more fun to do.

[Easy_Lee]

Having said that, I'm a firm believer that the PHB spells are only the tip of the iceberg, and important NPCs can have access to spells not listed therein because Plot. So Blagothkus might have access to the seldom-used spell "Create DC 70 door".

Agreed. Of course, the commercial value of the door can't be very high, given that only a giant seems capable of using it. Given the crafting rules, he might just be able to hammer several of these out each month if he has the materials. Imagine breaking through the door only to find an identical door on the other side.

[SharkForce]

perhaps they've gone straight back to putting adamantine doors in dungeons again. perhaps it's time to stop fighting the monsters and start taking the dungeon as loot once more ^^

[Slipperychicken]

Couldn't PCs just scale the towers' walls and enter through a window or chimney or something?


It looks like whoever wrote that thought they were writing for 3.5.

Worse, they apparently thought they were writing for ELH.

EDIT: And I get the feeling this may inspire DMs to sprinkle DC 70 giant plot-doors into their settings for years to come.

[Safety Sword]

All of these... or... go the other way.

[goto124]

I prefer to imagine a DC 70 door is purely to make the players come up with all sorts of ridiculous solutions to get past said door.

Also, I want to take the door and use it as a weapon. Against the giant.

[bokodasu]

The excuse for the wonky DCs in HotDQ is that it was written before the rules were - I believe it. There's a place where PCs have to make a passive DC 20 Perception check - at level 2-3. Um, ok? Why not just write "NOPE" and be done with it?

So I think really the best option for a munchkin is to use their "Charm DM" ability and try to get the door's DC reduced that way. You get advantage on the roll if your DM is the type to get really annoyed at dumb random things like giants having a magical door that they can't even open by RAW.

[Slipperychicken]

So I think really the best option for a munchkin is to use their "Charm DM" ability and try to get the door's DC reduced that way. You get advantage on the roll if your DM is the type to get really annoyed at dumb random things like giants having a magical door that they can't even open by RAW.

I think it's more like an INT check for the DM. If he passes, he realizes how stupid a DC 70 door is, and can spend his reaction to lower the DC as far as desired. One or more players can use their action to give him advantage on the roll.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the real question is, what's the rest of the building made of? I am pretty sure that (stone?) wall has a written AC/HP value. If we can minmax this high, why not just go the simpler route and bash through the wall?
Far more fun to do.

I did ask if the wall was impervious to cutting, did I not?

A while back I was playing a Warforged Warblade with a size Large adamantium greatsword. There were lots of things that got cut that normally don't cut - at the end of the campaign, the BBEG had a Staff of the Magi, and yes, it was sundered.

[Flashy]

The best I can manage is a 67.

D20 roll: 20
Persuade your DM that the strength check is totally actually an athletics check, have expertise: 12
Belt of Storm Giant's Strength: 9
Bardic Inspiration: 12
Dark one's own luck (Fiend pact warlock): 10
Guidence: 4

Total: 67

Still four short. Can anyone think of an effect I missed?

[Vogonjeltz]

The excuse for the wonky DCs in HotDQ is that it was written before the rules were - I believe it. There's a place where PCs have to make a passive DC 20 Perception check - at level 2-3. Um, ok? Why not just write "NOPE" and be done with it?

So I think really the best option for a munchkin is to use their "Charm DM" ability and try to get the door's DC reduced that way. You get advantage on the roll if your DM is the type to get really annoyed at dumb random things like giants having a magical door that they can't even open by RAW.

So if none of the PCs is proficient and they all have the wisdom of a grapefruit that's still almost a 1/5 chance of making. It seems very unlikely that nobody would be proficient or have good wisdom however.

[Flashy]

So if none of the PCs is proficient and they all have the wisdom of a grapefruit that's still almost a 1/5 chance of making. It seems very unlikely that nobody would be proficient or have good wisdom however.

It's a passive check, they aren't rolling. They either have a passive perception of 20 (which is quite difficult for a level 2-3 character) or they do not pass.

The check is essentially just whether or not someone took the observant feat.

[Naanomi]

Appropriate Attribute 30: +10
Proficiency Bonus: +6
Ioun Stone of Mastery: +1
Bardic Inspiration: +12
Guidance: +4
Epic Boon of Luck: +10
Dark One's Own Luck: +10
*Expertise: +7* (assuming Ioun Stone of Mastery is applied first)
**Gloves of Thievery: +5
***Pass without Trace: +10
***Epic Boon of Undetectability: +10

A Rogue (or Bard)/Warlock could potentially be rocking...


Raw attribute checks Total: +47
Tools (besides thieves tool) Total: +53... a beer brewed with a roll of 73!
Skill Total: +60... I know about Bears with a roll of Nature: 80!
Sleight of Hand Total: +65
Stealth Total: +80
EDIT: doable with it counting as a Athletics check; impossible if a stat check alone

[Vogonjeltz]

It's a passive check, they aren't rolling. They either have a passive perception of 20 (which is quite difficult for a level 2-3 character) or they do not pass.

The check is essentially just whether or not someone took the observant feat.

Clearly I failed my active perception check
;)

[Doug Lampert]

It's a passive check, they aren't rolling. They either have a passive perception of 20 (which is quite difficult for a level 2-3 character) or they do not pass.

The check is essentially just whether or not someone took the observant feat.

And note that observant at level 2-3 requires BOTH that the optional feat rules are in play and that the optional variant human is in play.
Then we get to decide if anyone did this.

[Slipperychicken]

And note that observant at level 2-3 requires BOTH that the optional feat rules are in play and that the optional variant human is in play.
Then we get to decide if anyone did this.

Who plays without feats or variant humans, though?

[Naanomi]

And note that observant at level 2-3 requires BOTH that the optional feat rules are in play and that the optional variant human is in play.
Then we get to decide if anyone did this.
And they had to have Advantage on the check or some other source of Bonuses going on (no way to get the +5 from Stats by level 2-3, even if you roll)

[SharkForce]

And they had to have Advantage on the check or some other source of Bonuses going on (no way to get the +5 from Stats by level 2-3, even if you roll)

+3 stat + 2 proficiency + 5 observant. totally possible, *if* you have the perfect build for it.

(you could also theoretically have a guidance spell cast on you just because it only costs your concentration, and at those levels you won't have much else to concentrate on outside of combat... if you then also have expertise and at least +2 from attribute, there's a chance. not a good one, mind you, but a chance nonetheless).

but yeah, that sounds like someone really messed up.

[Slipperychicken]

+3 stat + 2 proficiency + 5 observant. totally possible, *if* you have the perfect build for it.

(you could also theoretically have a guidance spell cast on you just because it only costs your concentration, and at those levels you won't have much else to concentrate on outside of combat... if you then also have expertise and at least +2 from attribute, there's a chance. not a good one, mind you, but a chance nonetheless).

but yeah, that sounds like someone really messed up.

Getting a 20 passive perception from level 1 isn't that hard if you're building a trapfinder or have wisdom as a high stat. I've seen it multiple times.

Just be a variant human rogue, take expertise in perception (It's a common choice, helps you find traps better), take Observant (again, find traps and loot better), and have a starting Wisdom 11 or higher (which you really should have if you're serious about perception or saves. Observant can bump it up to 12). That means your passive perception is 10 (base) + 4 (prof) + 5 (observant) + 1 (wisdom) = 20. Realistically, a trap-finder is looking at a starting wisdom of at least 12-14.


That said, a DC 20 passive check is pretty much impossible unless you built for that skill or have advantage. You can't reasonably expect a low-level party to pass it.

[Shining Wrath]

Who plays without feats or variant humans, though?

I don't allow variant human; trading +1 to 4 stats you don't care about for a feat is absurdly OP.

[pwykersotz]

Who plays without feats or variant humans, though?

No variant humans in my current campaign. And there's at least a couple people on these boards who don't use feats.

[Sindeloke]

Also no variant humans here. I don't particularly like normal humans, but a free feat is not the answer, that's way more powerful than anything the other races get.

In other, more on-topic news, I'm AFB, but isn't there a portable battering ram in the equipment section of the PHB? Does it do anything helpful?

[Daishain]

]
In other, more on-topic news, I'm AFB, but isn't there a portable battering ram in the equipment section of the PHB? Does it do anything helpful?
Forgot about that sucker. Yes, it adds a bonus to strength checks to break down doors. +4 I think. Also lets another character help you for advantage on the check.

[SharkForce]

I don't allow variant human; trading +1 to 4 stats you don't care about for a feat is absurdly OP.

i hope you allow *something* then, because +1 to 4 stats you don't care about is pretty crap in the first place, and +1 to 2 stats you do care about is considerably less than other races typically offer.

[Strill]

I don't allow variant human; trading +1 to 4 stats you don't care about for a feat is absurdly OP.

That's because standard human is absurdly underpowered. If you want to make a logical comparison, compare variant human to the next most powerful race, namely half-elf. The human's feat cancels out the half-elf's +2 CHA, and the half-elf comes out with an extra skill, along with darkvision, elvish language, and immunity to charm.

Variant human is balanced around a lower perk budget than other races to account for its versatility.


Also no variant humans here. I don't particularly like normal humans, but a free feat is not the answer, that's way more powerful than anything the other races get.
No it's not. Halfling's Lucky ability is worth a feat. Half-elf's +2 CHA is worth a feat. Drow Magic and Infernal Legacy are each worth a feat. Dwarven armor proficiencies are worth up to two feats, and Dwarven Toughness is worth half a feat on its own.

[Ralanr]

On the topic of getting around the door (I know OP said break through) I have two suggestions. Dig under it or make a hole in the wall around the door. I doubt the ground and mountain are made of the same stuff as the door. At most the hinges would be made of it and enough force could pull the hinges off a weaker material.

I played a variant human once. Realized that having a feat at level one was really stupid powerful (hello Crossbow expert. Or for a more extreme case, Lucky).

[7heprofessor]

While reading through HotDQ, I came across the following thing:



So, what's a proper min-maxer do here? Find out a way to destroy that door, of course! Assuming all sorts of crazy optimization, can you hit the DC?

Wow, over half of the responses are why this theoretical exercise is not meant to really be attempted by characters...um, duh? It's a theoretical exercise...


Anyway, many people have posted some seriously awesome attempts, but they appear to be operating under the assumption that it is an Athletics check to break a door. Unfortunately, it's only a Strength check so we'll have to try MUCH harder. Here are the features that affect Ability Checks from the PhB:

Misc:
Help Action - grants advantage
Lucky feat - reroll up to 3 d20

Spells:
Guidance - +1d4
Foresight - grants advantage

Class Features:
Bardic Inspiration (Bard 1-15)- +1d6-+1d12
Peerless Skill (College of Lore Bard 14)- +1d6-+1d12
Jack of All Trades (Bard 2) - +1/2 proficiency bonus (+1-+3)
Bend Luck (Wild Mage Sorcerer 6) - +1d4
Dark One's Own Luck (Fiend Pact Warlock 6) - +1d10
Stroke of Luck (Rogue 20) - automatically roll a 20 on an ability check


The Build:

College of Lore Bard 14/Fiend Pact Warlock 6

Feats: Lucky

Class Feature Choices:
Magical Secrets -> Guidance, Magic Jar, Planar Ally

Sequence:

0) Use your awesome knowledge and social skillz to attract the aid of a Wild Mage Sorcerer 6 (maybe pay them lots of money)
1) Cast Planar Ally and summon an Empyrean.
2) Explain to it that you are going to take over it's body for a few minutes to break down a door, but nothing bad will happen to it
3) Cast Magic Jar to take over the Empyrean's body
4) Cast Guidance on yourself
5) Activate Peerless Skill and Dark One's Own Luck
6) Have your Wild Mage Buddy use Bend Luck on you and then use the Help Action

Between Advantage being granted by Help and our Lucky feat, it's definitely possible to roll a 20, and for the sake of this exercise, we'll assume we can repeat this every day so we can max all rolls:

Ability Check:

+20 - die roll
+10 - Strength
+3 - Jack of All Trades
+10 - Peerless Skill
+4 - Bend Luck
+10 - Dark One's Own Luck
+4 Guidance

Edit: +4 Portable Ram

65 total

5 points short. Help.

[Flashy]

9 points short. Help.

A Bard 14 also has d10 inspiration dice. 71.

[7heprofessor]

A Bard 14 also has d10 inspiration dice. 71.

You cannot use Bardic Inspiration on yourself.

[dancrilis]

9 points short. Help.

Nothing (baring strength limitations on carrying) prevents you tying multiple portable rams together to get better leverage, use three and you are sorted (assuming your other figures are correct).

For a simpler solution, strength 20 - carrying 600 or 17 portable rams. Tie them together into one sizeable battering ram - you will have +73 on the roll.

Not sure if your DM will allow this but I don't see anything explicitly incorrect in using multiple rams together.

[7heprofessor]

Nothing (baring strength limitations on carrying) prevents you tying multiple portable rams together to get better leverage, use three and you are sorted (assuming your other figures are correct).

For a simpler solution, strength 20 - carrying 600 or 17 portable rams. Tie them together into one sizeable battering ram - you will have +73 on the roll.

Not sure if your DM will allow this but I don't see anything explicitly incorrect in using multiple rams together.

There is a space limitation as well I'm sure. Thanks for the suggestion though.

In either case, I don't like sketchy rules interpretations, so I've updated my post with one ram being used. This leaves us 5 points short.

[MustacheFart]

You guys aren't thinking outside the box. It can be opened by "a giant" so there are two easy ways to make that happen

1) Roll up a character named Aron Giant who otherwise goes by A. Giant. Then tell your dm that clearly by RAW this door was put there for you to open. It's your crowning achievement.

2) Wait for the giant to come near the door. Then use a grapple based barbarian (typically barb/rogue) to throw his ass into the door. Because he's a giant it will open.

[Daishain]

Nothing (baring strength limitations on carrying) prevents you tying multiple portable rams together to get better leverage, use three and you are sorted (assuming your other figures are correct).

For a simpler solution, strength 20 - carrying 600 or 17 portable rams. Tie them together into one sizeable battering ram - you will have +73 on the roll.

Not sure if your DM will allow this but I don't see anything explicitly incorrect in using multiple rams together.
This is not 3.5E, where anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed. If it doesn't make sense, the DM is supposed to veto it.

Tying battering rams together would in no way shape or form confer additional advantage, doing so would in fact drastically reduce the usefulness of the item in question. In addition, allowing such an absurd act opens the floodgates to a large number of ridiculous munchkinning schemes. As a result, I would be extremely disappointed in any DM that even considered allowing it.

[Naanomi]

In either case, I don't like sketchy rules interpretations, so I've updated my post with one ram being used. This leaves us 5 points short.
Epic Boon of Luck?

[Slipperychicken]

You could also wait for a giant to open it, then prop the door open and follow him in.

[dancrilis]

Tying battering rams together would in no way shape or form confer additional advantage, doing so would in fact drastically reduce the usefulness of the item in question.
To be clear I likely would not allow it myself (I also would likely not drop impossible doors in the way - seems rail-roadish).
However I am seeing a portable ram as something like this (in size).

www.hendonpub.com/assets/articles/1071/1792c52d-74be-4289-a9f5-06219528ff33.jpg


And the combined affect being something like this (in size):

http://vampirebookclub.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/emmett-tree-web.jpg

Done right you could see the second being significantly more effective than the first - particularly against larger doors.
Again the above are only size comparisons (that log would likely be the poorer ram of the two images).

I am now imagining a 20th level character having trained all there life to open "The Impossible Door" and finally at there last test, they are preparing themselves physically and mentally and making sure their allies know the plan ... only to have some drunken barbarian dressed in rags and carrying a patchwork battering ram slap the door down in one strike before wandering through.

[SharkForce]

This is not 3.5E, where anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed. If it doesn't make sense, the DM is supposed to veto it.

Tying battering rams together would in no way shape or form confer additional advantage, doing so would in fact drastically reduce the usefulness of the item in question. In addition, allowing such an absurd act opens the floodgates to a large number of ridiculous munchkinning schemes. As a result, I would be extremely disappointed in any DM that even considered allowing it.

to be fair, "get a bigger battering ram" is a pretty legit solution (albeit one which requires house rules to accomadate, and probably better house rules than just +4 per battering ram strapped together). the flaw is not that he's making a bigger battering ram (which makes absolute sense), but rather that he's not using more people, and he's tying them together rather than just using an actual larger battering ram. after all, a giant battering ram is *exactly* the sort of thing you would expect to use to open a large, heavy, fortified gate in a siege scenario.

[7heprofessor]

Epic Boon of Luck?

Where can I find more information on this?

[dancrilis]

Where can I find more information on this?

Page 232 DMG (adds +1d10 to the roll).

[Safety Sword]

You guys aren't thinking outside the box. It can be opened by "a giant" so there are two easy ways to make that happen

1) Roll up a character named Aron Giant who otherwise goes by A. Giant. Then tell your dm that clearly by RAW this door was put there for you to open. It's your crowning achievement.


If you were at my table I'd give it to you just for the chuckles.

Of course, now lots of things will especially apply to "A. Giant" that would turn my campaign into a comical farce.

[Sindeloke]

No it's not. Halfling's Lucky ability is worth a feat. Half-elf's +2 CHA is worth a feat. Drow Magic and Infernal Legacy are each worth a feat. Dwarven armor proficiencies are worth up to two feats, and Dwarven Toughness is worth half a feat on its own.

There's a huge difference between being assigned a feat of mediocre build synergy with pre-selected parameters and being able to choose any feat that suits your fancy, to your exact specifications. And that's before considering that not all feats are created equal (what would you rather have, a d8 instead of a d6 on your bow, or Sentinel/Warcaster? ).

(Also, it's generally best not to compare a medium race to halflings, they seem to have a higher feature budget to make up for being pants with all the good weapons.)

If we're using a giant battering ram, we have to adjudicate it somehow. I'd probably give the guy with the tree +8, but my gut feeling isn't much to build an optimization strategy on.

[Joe the Rat]

If this was written in the after-playtest-but-before-finalized-rules window, the answer would be to beat on the door until its hit points (which is what determined the break DC) is low enough.

[OracleofWuffing]

If we're using a giant battering ram, we have to adjudicate it somehow. I'd probably give the guy with the tree +8, but my gut feeling isn't much to build an optimization strategy on.
Does it matter what the bonus is? The battering ram's a giant, so the door opens for it regardless of how well it works.

:smallannoyed: Okay, who threw that book at me? :smalltongue:

[Envyus]

Go through the Wall. Because the Castle is made of Ice.

[Zweisteine]

Go through the Wall. Because the Castle is made of Ice.
And if that fails, hire some dwarves and dig under the walls.

Or find a way to summon an umber hulk, and do it faster.

[Myzz]

did anyone yet say "roll a nat 20"?

Anything that gets you more rolls and rerolls would be the way to go:

Halfling with lucky feat and an inspiration die or help from his babarian friend to gain advantage. Depending on how your DM runs lucky feat with advantage could net you many rolls... or just 5... with a reroll on any 1's (dependent on how halfing lucky works with lucky feat rerolls...)

Barring that:

portable Hole inverted and put the door into the portable hole then walk around it/under it...

or just dig a hole under it, and if the walls/floor are ice... just make a fire at the door and melt the ice under it.

With a very secure door, often times the walls, floor and ceiling are the weak points to be exploited.

Summon a giant X, who should be able to open the door? Or change your familiar into a Giant X... Have the Druid turn into a Giant X... (ex = Giant Crab, Giant Ape, Giant Rat, Giant Weasel...)

True Polymorph of course could work Hill Giant is only CR 5!

[Slipperychicken]

did anyone yet say "roll a nat 20"?

If your giant-sized magical super-secure door has a 5% chance to be pushed down by a weakling peasant in one go, then you need a better door.


Also, IIRC nat 20s on skill/ability checks still aren't automatic successes.

[Myzz]

Also, IIRC nat 20s on skill/ability checks still aren't automatic successes.

Your right... RAW does not say they are, and could be interpreted due to 'Rolling Nat 20' being only discussed in the Attack section, that indeed Nat 1's and 20's only have special significance when attacking.

We've always used it to apply to all d20 rolls, and continue to do so. I spose thats a houserule of ours... but its one that I have never bothered to ask about since every table I've played at seems to use it.

and your also right that under that rule you just need to open your bag of holding with a billion peasents in it and let them all have a go at it... whoever opens it gets to go free =)

[Knaight]

I would like writers to move away from "plot locks" like these. If my character has a gaseous form spell or some kind of non-LOS teleport ability or even an energy sword that cuts through matter, then he should be able to bypass the door because that's what those abilities do. Saying that unlike every other door in the world, this one can only be opened by one specific ability is too railroady for my tastes.

Agreed. It's one thing if it's a door which actually makes sense blocking one of those (gaseous form isn't getting you through an airlock, and while those are rare in fantasy games there are a few cases I can think of which do fit), things protected from energy is a time honored trope, etc. Still, there's a substantial difference between a short list of things that won't work and a short list of things that will.

[bokodasu]

Still, there's a substantial difference between a short list of things that won't work and a short list of things that will.

Yes! This exactly. Even if it's a long list of things that won't work, that's fine, because give enough players enough time and they will write the works of Shakes... I mean, figure out an Awesome Plan That Will Work. But saying "you have to guess exactly the thing I am thinking of," that's not cool or interesting. If I wanted that, I'd be playing one of those point-and-click adventure games and use the toast on the keyhole or whatever.

[Slipperychicken]

Your right... RAW does not say they are, and could be interpreted due to 'Rolling Nat 20' being only discussed in the Attack section, that indeed Nat 1's and 20's only have special significance when attacking.

We've always used it to apply to all d20 rolls, and continue to do so. I spose thats a houserule of ours... but its one that I have never bothered to ask about since every table I've played at seems to use it.


It's always been that way, and it's always been intentional. Only attack rolls auto-hit on a 20; skills do not.

However, auto-success on a 20 is such a common houserule/misunderstanding that many groups wrongly assume it to be RAW.