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Gralamin
2007-04-07, 09:59 PM
I'm creating a gestalt character for a war campaign. This thread is for optimization in theory.

Important House Rules:
1. We get some Free stuff.
2. Feats every odd level
3. Double base skill points (rogues would have 16+int modifier...)
4. Ability increases every 3 levels (3, 6, 9...)
5. Eschew Materials at Level one For Free (sorcerers)
6. Fax's Paladin Variant
7. No Psionics, Though Psionic races can be cleared.

The Concept: [Not Finished]
Besnik is a Synad from another world, and one he doesn't like to talk about. He somehow managed to escape that world and arrive in the Campaign world, something that appeared to him to be no short of a miracle. He arrived in the lair of a Bronze Dragon. Besnik Decided this was done by Bahamut, and become a Paladin, while the bronze dragon taught him the basics of Sorcery.

The Character Sheet:
The current of my character sheet can be found here. (http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=50793)

The Build in Brief:
LG Paladin of Bahamut // Sorcerer (Level 3)
Spells Above level 0: Grease, Sleep and Mage Armor; Paladin Spells: Divine Favor.
I plan to head into Dragon Disciple on my Paladin Side.

Books Available
Almost All

Optimization Questions:
1. Is this build possible without being self crippling? Can you give me any suggestions?
2. Did I mess up a rule somewhere?

Zincorium
2007-04-07, 10:15 PM
Paladin/sorcerer is generally a sound gish build, especially so in gestalt, and dragon disciple becomes exceptionally useful as it gives you bonus spells that add to your sorcerer casting ability.

As far as prestige classes go, I'm not sure what Fax's paladin variant gives you and I'll have to look it up, but if Dragon disciple is the only PrC class you have planned, you still have five more levels in which you could conceivably take one, on the sorceror side most likely since if it's a full casting PrC you'd lose nothing.

The Book of Exalted Deeds class Vassal of Bahamut sounds perfect for your character concept, and it's mechanically not all that bad. It would mean giving up some additional levels of paladin or spellcasting progression however. The armor is too good not to waste, so unless you're fond of the battle sorceror variant in unearthed arcana (and the SRD), a single level of spellsword and the twilight enchantment would get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure.

Gralamin
2007-04-07, 11:38 PM
Ahh Those are the two books we avoid, the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness.
I was thinking of picking up Archmage on my Sorcerer Side.

The Paladin Variant is here (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Paladin)

edit: Also, What are some good forms for Alter Self?

Lemur
2007-04-08, 12:02 AM
Minor nitpick on your character sheet- Bracers of Armor +1 won't stack with Mage Armor, which probably makes it a waste of cash.

However, dastana (armor item from the Arms and Equipment guide) give you a +1 armor bonus that stacks with other armor bonuses. If their made from mithril, they'll cost virtually the same thing as Bracers +1 and give no arcane spell failure.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-08, 12:19 AM
Instead of Mage Armor:

Faycraft Thistledown Padded Mithral Chain Shirt. +4 armor bonus, no ASF. Can be further enchanted. Faycraft is a -5% ASF, so is Thistledown Padded.

If that won't fly, try +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. Twilight is a +1 equivelant enhancement bonus which reduces ASF by 10%.

This frees up a valuable 1st level spell known.

Pal/Sorc is pretty powerful, with good Cha synergy. Also consider Pal/Monk//Sorc/full spellcasting PrC (Incantatrix is a good choice here). Two level dip in Monk gives Evasion, and Wis bonus to AC can be a good thing, although it means you'll have to use the spell Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor rather than the Mithral Chain Shirt cheeze I posted above. All three good saves is another bonus from Monk.

I'd highly suggest the PhB II Sorcerer variant which replaces a Familiar for being able to cast Metmagic spontaniously without having to spend a full round. Then I'd highly suggest as many Metamagic spells as possible to get the most tactical flexability out of all your spells known.

Gralamin
2007-04-08, 12:22 AM
Instead of Mage Armor:

Faycraft Thistledown Padded Mithral Chain Shirt. +4 armor bonus, no ASF. Can be further enchanted. Faycraft is a -5% ASF, so is Thistledown Padded.

If that won't fly, try +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. Twilight is a +1 equivelant enhancement bonus which reduces ASF by 10%.

This frees up a valuable 1st level spell known.

Pal/Sorc is pretty powerful, with good Cha synergy. Also consider Pal/Monk//Sorc/full spellcasting PrC (Incantatrix is a good choice here). Two level dip in Monk gives Evasion, and Wis bonus to AC can be a good thing, although it means you'll have to use the spell Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor rather than the Mithral Chain Shirt cheeze I posted above. All three good saves is another bonus from Monk.

I'd highly suggest the PhB II Sorcerer variant which replaces a Familiar for being able to cast Metmagic spontaniously without having to spend a full round. Then I'd highly suggest as many Metamagic spells as possible to get the most tactical flexability out of all your spells known.

I'll run those armors past my DM. He has already decided increasing the metamagic time is nonsense. I was torn Between Combat Feats and Metamagic, but I deiced that knowing my group, I'll have to be in the front, and took Combat Feats.

Zincorium
2007-04-08, 12:33 AM
Ahh Those are the two books we avoid, the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness.
I was thinking of picking up Archmage on my Sorcerer Side.

The Paladin Variant is here (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Paladin)

edit: Also, What are some good forms for Alter Self?

Archmage is a meh sort of class, but since you do have spell slots aplenty and aren't losing anything by it, it's not a bad choice. Complete arcane should have something a bit better, though. Most of the high arcana are in no way worth the spell slot they take.

And as far as alter self, you're an aberration. Even a carrion crawler would be pretty nifty at low levels. At high levels...wow. Pick up lords of madness, pronto.


Minor nitpick on your character sheet- Bracers of Armor +1 won't stack with Mage Armor, which probably makes it a waste of cash.

However, dastana (armor item from the Arms and Equipment guide) give you a +1 armor bonus that stacks with other armor bonuses. If their made from mithril, they'll cost virtually the same thing as Bracers +1 and give no arcane spell failure.

Arms and Equipment guide is 3.0, so it's kind of a hit or miss with most DMs. Dastana are pretty good though.

As far as bracers of armor: mithril chain shirt with the twilight enchantment. It'll give you a better bonus to AC for the same gold, with no arcane spell failure chance. It can also be used with the aforementioned Dastana for a very good defensive strategy.

Gralamin
2007-04-08, 12:08 PM
Shneeky: You do Realize the Chain shirt above is 1100 (mithral masterwork chain shirt) + 4000 (Equivalent to a +2 armor) for a price of 5100 right? I'm only Level 3 (with 1.5 starting wealth due to having two players...)

Zincorium
2007-04-08, 01:56 PM
Shneeky: You do Realize the Chain shirt above is 1100 (mithral masterwork chain shirt) + 4000 (Equivalent to a +2 armor) for a price of 5100 right? I'm only Level 3 (with 1.5 starting wealth due to having two players...)

It isn't necessary that you go for it immediately, at worst you can craft it yourself in a few levels when you get the gold (caster level 5th is all that's needed), and in the meantime mage armor will provide the protection you need, with the bracers sort of acting as insurance. Yes, you'll be vulnerable compared to the typical paladin, there's not much for that.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-08, 04:33 PM
if you're going frontline take power attack and have true strike as a level one spell, use a greatsword and you're laughing.
go with the monk idea above as not having evasion will really sting with your all good saves.

Gralamin
2007-04-08, 10:11 PM
if you're going frontline take power attack and have true strike as a level one spell, use a greatsword and you're laughing.
go with the monk idea above as not having evasion will really sting with your all good saves.

If I really wanted to cheese out my saves I'd go wizard (abjurer)/Master Specialist, making it so nothing bad happens as long as I make the save.