Setting adaptation / how much to charge clerics for spell list expansions?

[Analytica]

So, I want to use 5e for a setting I am making, which is supposed to be heavily Lovecraftian/Clark Ashton Smith-style Sword & Sorcery.

In order to underscore some aspects, all magic is intended to require sacrifice and ritual to otherwise uncaring eldritch abomination deities, and the difference between a temple priestess and a sorceress is simply that the former is integrated in their community, whereas the latter is rogue. In other words, to get access to magic you _have_ to do nasty things in service of the gods, and any wandering necromancer could in principle settle down and shepherd a community of cultists, if they decided to.

I want this to be reflected in the available game options, so that no-one can "cheat" and gain access to magic without having to do these things. I also don't want to change the basic rules more than I absolutely have to.

This is where I come to you for advise: how to do this?

I think the easiest option is to simply declare arcane magic users do not exist in the setting (wizard, sorcerer, warlock, bard, eldritch knight) making druids, paladins, rangers and clerics the only spellcasters.

But I also see a lot of spells on the arcane spell lists that I want at least _some_ witch-priests to be able to cast, including witch bolts, find familiar, etc. If I want to add game options that let some divine spellcasters increase their spell lists, how should I balance those?

The most immediate option seems like making feats that add some number of spells to your list. How balanced is this, and how could it be restricted, and how many would make sense for each?

Something like a feat that gives you 1-2 specific spells of each level, maybe tied to a particular tradition/deity/set of secrets?

Or am I missing some much easier option? Feedback happily received. :)

[Tenmujiin]

Wouldn't it work best to simply add a sacrifice of some kind to each class since the only class that really fits what you are talking about in the slightest is warlock. While normally it annoys me when people say "just refluf X" (most of my group considers fluff to be part of RaW) in this case you are changing the fluff already so it shouldn't be too big a deal to just include all the normal casting classes with the added restriction of "sacrifices" to cast spells. Then again, 5e probably isn't the best system for the game you seem to want to run since its magic is mostly cost free and is balanced as such.

[Fwiffo86]

couple of things, as I have done this in the past actually....

First - Remove any distinction between arcane and divine. Just one large collection of spells that you may want to adjust availability to.

Second - put all the grisly requirements in the spell cast requirements, not the class. (Animate dead requires the bone marrow of a freshly killed something, poured over the body by hand, not a container, Resurrection might require the sacrifice of one life for another)

Third - I would remove full spell casters entirely, and replace spellcasting halvsies or partials with an alternate ability (paladins, bards, etc).

Fourth - because of the removal of "spell casting" Anyone can learn and use a spell (not like a feat, but maybe like a skill) as long as they are willing to pay the price for it.

Last - d20 Call of Cthulhu does a great job at this, and even has conversions for D&D 3.x in it. I would check that out. I'm pretty sure all spellcasting does temporary damage to your Wis score if I remember correctly, no reason that couldn't be ported over if you remove full on spell casters.

These are just ideas, and modifications of what I do. Take or leave them as you want.

[kaoskonfety]

I'm thinking about doing something similar and am getting close to:

Step 1, Remove all primary spell casters but Warlocks (if you are feeling generous allow them to pick the caster stat Wis (unspeakable sights - Fae) Int (forbidden lore - infernal) or Cha (Cult leader - Old Ones) - mix and match to taste.
(there may be space in there for paladins - ancient serving the Fae and a few more re-fluffs, but your are likely losing the arcane trickster and eldrich knight,)

Step 2, write up several more patrons (swapping out mostly the bonus spells available for which devil kin/ freaky monster you kneel to etc. so that you can get healing and similar - part of the bard list for some of the fae, cleric in the infernal suite, more dominate in Old one - give them more spells to choose from but leave the spells known where it is)

Step 3 - You do not recover your spell slots on resting, but on sacrifices of increasing awful as you level/higher level slots (perhaps allowing weaker sacrifices to refill slots - but at lower level)
Spell levels...
- level 1 deep prayer communion (resting, but fluffed up a bit, possibly with locations restrictions - in a temple setting etc.)
- level 2 Animal sacrifices/ doing the masters bidding
- level 3 human sacrifice (generally killing)
- level 4 IN THE MASTERS NAME! - serious ritualized murder, feeding the willing to the maw of the elder things pets
- level 5 unspeakable things - this will vary from table to table and player comfort with various elements (as may some of the above)
(adjust the above to taste and table maturity ratings)

Step 4 - the pacts are in no way ignorable fluff, you are a servant of The Fae and their power is in your mind, bound heart and soul to the Devil, pledged to the devoted service of the servant monsters of god-things older than time - they will ask things of you. Some of them impossible, none of them nice.

Profit.

[Analytica]

Thanks for these suggestions!

If any of the Call of Cthulhu rulesets were open (5E isn't per se but seems open enough) I would want to use them, I think.

As it is, I would if possible not want to create new classes or change existing ones too much. Existing divine casters seem like their daily spell preparation can be fluffed with sacrifice and ritual, also spells can get such components, and the spellcasters may have to make sure to do particular rituals on recurring days when the stars are right to maintain their connection. This is why I felt that starting with e.g. the regular cleric class as a base and add options for making wizard- or warlock-like clerics would be easiest. I also want to keep all spellcasting using a similar mechanic (e.g. spell slots per level).

What I am thinking of now though is to instead tweak the base spell lists; what if each divine patron simply had a different base spell list for any spellcaster worshipping it, regardless of class, with some spells added and removed for each one? If you make the effort to maintain rapport with multiple deities, you can access spells from any of them. This way, I can also remove any magic I don't want anyone have access to, but I don't need to change the classes, just their spell lists?

[kaoskonfety]

Changing the 'domain' spells from being a small list of bonus on your list to a bigger list but "this is your spell list" could be neat - I'd suggest a bare bones "general list" for those who hold any patrons favour

[Analytica]

Thanks again for help so far! I've worked out some alternate spell lists for the main deities of the setting as well as some minor rules and feats around this, which I post here. If anyone is willing to comment on whether this is balanced (or rather, whether any of it is overpowered or inappropriate) this would be most helpful. Not sure if it still should go in this forum or in the homebrew though?

Note that while the spell lists are larger than the cleric list, some magic is almost entirely removed - shapechanging, teleportation and raising the dead. This is intentional for setting reasons, but I am not sure what it would do to balance. Thoughts appreciated!

Overview

While the power to cast magic spells is drawn from the aura of the priest or witch herself, as well as from that of any sacrifices presented, the necessary understanding of the inner mechanisms of reality for actually weaving the spell needs to come from a deity; technically a deity is defined in this context as one who can thus “grant prayers”. Because of this, the lines between “arcane” and “divine” magic are blurred or nonexistent; rather a priestess is one who performs cultic functions also for an uninitiated flock, whereas a sorcerer is one who operates outside of organized religions, with many on occasion being both. A reasonably well-kept secret is that the deities seem not to care for loyalty or conduct or genuine worship, only that rites involving sentient sacrifice take place at those times when the stars are right. Any individual who undergoes the correct initiations and regularly performs these rites may draw magic from the appropriate deity, and it is further possible to maintain the patronage of more than one divine being at the same time, though this is usually the purvey of witches rather than temple priests.

Spellcasting classes

Of the D&D5E spellcasting classes, only those generally considered divine spellcasters are available; the social functions and narrative roles of wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, bards or eldritch warriors are instead fulfilled by clerics, druids, paladins and rangers. However, the selection of spells available to each class does not depend on their usual class spell list, but on the spell lists presented below for each deity. These lists cover the PHB spells only; new spells should be introduced to each deity list as appropriate. The Theurgy feat below allows for service to multiple deities and thus access to the spells of each, and the Psychic feat gives the ability to cast some specific spells without divine patronage. Any circumstances where the reach of a given deity is limited will make magic drawing on that deity specifically impossible to perform.

New Feat: Psychic
Some simpler magic, usually that involving direct manipulation of mind or soul, can be learned so well that a mortal may perform it without invoking a deity.
Prerequisite: Charisma 13 or higher.

You learn a number of spells from the Psychic Powers spell list, equal to the number of spells a warlock of your total character level would know, learning new spells as you level. Whenever you cast these spells, they require no verbal, somatic or material components, and they are available to you regardless of your state of divine initiation or lack thereof.
If you do not have levels in a spellcasting class, you can cast spells from the Psychic Power spells you know exactly as a warlock of your level could.
If you do have levels in a spellcasting class, you can instead use your spell slots from that class to cast any Psychic Power spells you know, using the spellcasting ability modifier of that class.


New Feat: Theurgy
You have delved into forbidden lore beyond that taught to most priests, and have learned to barter with divine powers to achieve your personal goals.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13 or higher, levels in a class that grants the ability to cast spells.

You can seek and obtain initiate status in multiple priesthoods or otherwise make pacts with multiple divine patrons. You must fulfill the requirements of each, and perform regulary rites according to each. You can learn, prepare or cast spells from the spell lists of any of your deities.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus when casting your spells.
If you have the Ritual Casting feature you need not have a spell prepared to cast it as a ritual, merely to have a written description of it.


Spell lists

Psychic Powers spell list:
0 - friends, mage hand, message, minor illusion
1 - animal friendship, charm person, command, detect evil and good, detect magic, disguise self, dissonant whispers, expeditious retreat, feather fall, find familiar, heroism, hex, jump, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, tasha's hideous laughter
2 - animal messenger, beast sense, blur, calm emotions, detect thoughts, enhance ability, enthrall, hold person, invisibility, levitate, locate animals or plants, locate object, mirror image, nystul's magic aura, see invisibility, suggestion
3 - clairvoyance, counterspell, dispel magic, fear, feign death, fly, hypnotic pattern, major image, nondetection, remove curse, sending, vampiric touch
4 - arcane eye, banishment, compulsion, confusion, dominate beast, greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain, locate creature, phantasmal killer
5 - contact other plane, dominate person, dream, geas, hold monster, legend lore, mislead, modify memory, rary's telepathic bond, scrying, seeming, telekinesis
6 - contingency, magic jar, mass suggestion, otto's irresistible dance, programmed illusion, true seeing
7 - mirage arcane, project image
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, dominate monster, feeblemind, glibness, mind blank, telepathy, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, weird

Ahtu (Chaotic Evil Old One, Trickery domain):
0 - friends, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, message, minor illusion, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, vicious mockery
1 - alarm, bane, bless, charm person, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, disguise self, dissonant whispers, divine favor, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, identify, illusory script, inflict wounds, mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, silent image, sleep
2 - aid, alter self, animal messenger, arcane lock, augury, barkskin, blindness/deafness, blur, calm emotions, continual flame, crown of madness, darkness, darkvision, detect thoughts, enhance ability, enthrall, find traps, gentle repose, hold person, invisibility, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic mouth, magic weapon, mirror image, nystul's magic aura, pass without trace, phantasmal force, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, silence, spiritual weapon, suggestion, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, blink, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, hypnotic pattern, magic circle, major image, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, spirit guardians, tongues
4 - arcane eye, banishment, compulsion, confusion, death ward, divination, dominate beast, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, guardian of faith, hallucinatory terrain, locate creature, mordenkainen's faithful hound, mordenkainen's private sanctum, phantasmal killer
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, legend lore, mass cure wounds, mislead, modify memory, planar binding, rary's telepathic bond, scrying, seeming, telekinesis
6 - arcane gate, contingency, eyebite, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, magic jar, mass suggestion, planar ally, programmed illusion, true seeing
7 - divine word, finger of death, mirage arcane, project image, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, dominate monster, feeblemind, glibness, holy aura, maze, mind blank, power word stun, telepathy, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, imprisonment, power word kill, weird, wish


Asherah (Neutral Evil Young God, War domain):
0 - blade ward, dancing lights, fire bolt, guidance, light, mending, message, produce flame, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, banishing smite, bless, burning hands, command, compelled duel, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, hellish rebuke, heroism, hunter's mark, identify, inflict wounds, longstrider, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, searing smite, shield of faith, thunderous smite, thunderwave, wrathful smite
2 - aid, augury, blindness/deafness, branding smite, calm emotions, continual flame, enhance ability, enthrall, flame blade, flaming sphere, gentle repose, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, scorching ray, see invisibility, shatter, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, blinding smite, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, elemental weapon, fear, feign death, fireball, glyph of warding, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead
4 - banishment, death ward, divination, fire shield, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, stoneskin, wall of fire
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, destructive wave/destructive smite, dispel evil and good, dominate person, flame strike, geas, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, planar binding, scrying
6 - contingency, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing
7 - delayed blast fireball, divine word, fire storm, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, holy aura, incendiary cloud, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, meteor swarm, wish

Dagon (Chaotic Neutral Young God, Tempest domain):
0 - druidcraft, guidance, light, mending, message, resistance, sacred flame, shocking grasp, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, vicious mockery
1 - alarm, animal friendship, bane, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, expeditious retreat, faerie fire, false life, feather fall, find familiar, fog cloud, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, identify, inflict wounds, jump, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, speak with animals, thunderwave, witch bolt
2 - aid, alter self, animal messenger, augury, blindness/deafness, continual flame, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, gentle repose, gust of wind, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, spider climb, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, call lightning, clairvoyance, conjure animals, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, lightning arrow, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, plant growth, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, sleet storm, speak with dead, vampiric touch, water breathing, wind wall
4 - arcane eye, banishment, compulsion, confusion, control water, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum
5 - circle of power, commune, commune with nature, contact other plane, destructive wave/destructive smite, dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, legend lore, mass cure wounds, planar binding, reincarnate, scrying
6 - chain lightning, contingency, eyebite, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing, wind walk
7 - divine word, mirage arcane, regenerate, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, control weather, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul, tsunami
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, storm of vengeance, weird, wish

Ishara (True Neutral Young God, Knowledge domain):
0 - druidcraft, guidance, light, mending, message, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, disguise self, divine favor, expeditious retreat, false life, feather fall, find familiar, fog cloud, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, illusory script, inflict wounds, jump, longstrider, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, silent image
2 - aid, animal messenger, arcane lock, augury, blindness/deafness, blur, calm emotions, continual flame, detect thoughts, enhance ability, enthrall, find steed, find traps, gentle repose, gust of wind, hold person, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic weapon, mirror image, misty step, nystul's magic aura, pass without trace, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, silence, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, magic circle, major image, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, spirit guardians, tongues, water walk, wind wall
4 - arcane eye, banishment, death ward, divination, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, hallucinatory terrain, leomund's secret chest, locate creature, mordenkainen's faithful hound, mordenkainen's private sanctum
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, mislead, modify memory, passwall, planar binding, rary's telepathic bond, scrying, seeming
6 - arcane gate, contingency, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, guards and wards, harm, heal, heroes' feast, magic jar, planar ally, programmed illusion, true seeing, wind walk
7 - divine word, mirage arcane, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, control weather, glibness, holy aura, mind blank, telepathy, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, imprisonment, wish

Mithra (True Neutral Young God, Trickery domain):
0 - blade ward, guidance, light, mending, message, minor illusion, produce flame, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, true strike
1 - alarm, bane, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, disguise self, divine favor, false life, find familiar, grease, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, illusory script, inflict wounds, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, silent image, tenser's floating disk, thunderwave, unseen servant
2 - aid, animal messenger, arcane lock, augury, blindness/deafness, blur, calm emotions, cloud of daggers, continual flame, darkness, detect thoughts, enhance ability, enthrall, find traps, flame blade, gentle repose, heat metal, hold person, invisibility, knock, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic mouth, magic weapon, mirror image, nystul's magic aura, pass without trace, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, shatter, spider climb, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, hypnotic pattern, magic circle, major image, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, slow, speak with dead
4 - arcane eye, banishment, death ward, divination, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, guardian of faith, hallucinatory terrain, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, creation, dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, modify memory, passwall, planar binding, scrying
6 - contingency, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, magic jar, move earth, planar ally, programmed illusion, true seeing
7 - divine word, forcecage, mirage arcane, project image, simulacrum, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, glibness, holy aura, maze, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, imprisonment, wish

Moloch (Chaotic Evil Old One, Light domain):
0 - acid splash, dancing lights, fire bolt, guidance, light, mending, message, produce flame, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, burning hands, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, faerie fire, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith
2 - augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, enhance ability, enthrall, flame blade, flaming sphere, gentle repose, heat metal, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, melf's acid arrow, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, scorching ray, see invisibility, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, daylight, dispel magic, elemental weapon, fear, feign death, fireball, glyph of warding, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, vampiric touch
4 - banishment, blight, compulsion, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, fire shield, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, wall of fire
5 - circle of power, cloudkill, commune, contact other plane, dominate person, flame strike, geas, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, planar binding, scrying
6 - contingency, disintegrate, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing
7 - delayed blast fireball, divine word, fire storm, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, holy aura, incendiary cloud, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, meteor swarm, storm of vengeance, wish

Nergal (Lawful Neutral Young God, Death domain):
0 - chill touch, guidance, light, mending, message, resistance, shillelagh, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, banishing smite, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, ray of sickness, sanctuary, shield of faith, sleep, unseen servant
2 - aid, arcane lock, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, find traps, gentle repose, hold person, knock, lesser restoration, locate object, magic mouth, magic weapon, moonbeam, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, ray of enfeeblement, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - beacon of hope, bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, magic circle, mass healing word, meld into stone, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, slow, speak with dead, spirit guardians, stinking cloud, vampiric touch
4 - aura of life, aura of purity, banishment, death ward, divination, freedom of movement, giant insect, guardian of faith, leomund's secret chest, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, phantasmal killer, stone shape, stoneskin
5 - antilife shell, circle of power, cloudkill, commune, contact other plane, contagion, dispel evil and good, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, insect plague, legend lore, mass cure wounds, passwall, planar binding, scrying
6 - arcane gate, circle of death, contingency, eyebite, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, guards and wards, harm, heroes' feast, move earth, planar ally, true seeing
7 - conjure celestial, divine word, finger of death, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, earthquake, feeblemind, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, power word kill, wish

Nerthus-Ish*****rab (True Neutral Young God, Nature domain):
0 - dancing lights, druidcraft, guidance, mending, message, poison spray, resistance, shillelagh, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, thorn whip
1 - alarm, animal friendship, bane, bless, charm person, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, ensnaring strike, entangle, faerie fire, false life, find familiar, fog cloud, goodberry, grease, hail of thorns, healing word, heroism, hex, hunter's mark, identify, inflict wounds, longstrider, purify food and drink, ray of sickness, sanctuary, shield of faith, sleep, speak with animals
2 - aid, alter self, animal messenger, augury, barkskin, beast sense, blindness/deafness, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, find steed, gentle repose, hold person, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, magic weapon, moonbeam, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, spider climb, spike growth, spiritual weapon, suggestion, warding bond
3 - aura of vitality, bestow curse, clairvoyance, conjure animals, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, plant growth, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, speak with plants, stinking cloud, vampiric touch, water breathing
4 - aura of life, banishment, blight, compulsion, conjure woodland beings, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, giant insect, grasping vine, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum
5 - awaken, circle of power, commune, commune with nature, contact other plane, contagion, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, insect plague, mass cure wounds, planar binding, reincarnate, scrying
6 - contingency, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing, wall of thorns
7 - divine word, regenerate
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, clone, control weather, feeblemind, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, power word heal, storm of vengeance, wish

Reshef (Neutral Evil Old One, Life domain):
0 - guidance, light, mending, message, poison spray, resistance, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, arms of hadar, bane, bless, charm person, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, disguise self, divine favor, false life, find familiar, grease, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, hunter's mark, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, purify food and drink, ray of sickness, sanctuary, shield of faith, sleep, unseen servant
2 - aid, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, gentle repose, hold person, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, ray of enfeeblement, see invisibility, spider climb, spiritual weapon, suggestion
3 - animate dead, bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, hunger of hadar, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, plant growth, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, spirit guardians, stinking cloud, vampiric touch, water breathing
4 - arcane eye, banishment, blight, compulsion, death ward, divination, dominate beast, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, giant insect, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's faithful hound, mordenkainen's private sanctum, phantasmal killer
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, contagion, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, insect plague, legend lore, mass cure wounds, mislead, planar binding, reincarnate, scrying, seeming
6 - circle of death, contingency, eyebite, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, mass suggestion, move earth, planar ally, true seeing
7 - divine word, regenerate, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, clone, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, power word heal, weird, wish

Sadoqua (Neutral Evil Old One, Death domain):
0 - acid splash, guidance, light, mending, message, poison spray, resistance, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, purify food and drink, ray of sickness, sanctuary, shield of faith, sleep
2 - aid, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, gentle repose, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, melf's acid arrow, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, see invisibility, shatter, silence, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, hunger of hadar, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, slow, speak with dead, vampiric touch
4 - banishment, blight, confusion, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, fire shield, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, phantasmal killer
5 - antilife shell, circle of power, cloudkill, commune, contact other plane, dominate person, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, legend lore, mass cure wounds, modify memory, planar binding, scrying
6 - circle of death, contingency, disintegrate, find the path, flesh to stone, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing
7 - divine word, finger of death, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, control weather, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, power word kill, storm of vengeance, weird, wish

Sargon (Chaotic Neutral Young God, Life domain):
0 - acid splash, guidance, light, mending, message, poison spray, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, charm person, command, compelled duel, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, dissonant whispers, divine favor, expeditious retreat, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, ray of sickness, sanctuary, shield of faith, sleep
2 - aid, alter self, animal messenger, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, crown of madness, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, gentle repose, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, melf's acid arrow, moonbeam, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, ray of enfeeblement, see invisibility, spiritual weapon, suggestion, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - aura of vitality, bestow curse, clairvoyance, conjure animals, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, hypnotic pattern, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, plant growth, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, vampiric touch, water breathing
4 - aura of life, aura of purity, banishment, compulsion, confusion, death ward, divination, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, phantasmal killer, stoneskin
5 - awaken, circle of power, commune, contact other plane, contagion, dispel evil and good, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, legend lore, mass cure wounds, modify memory, planar binding, scrying
6 - contingency, eyebite, find the path, flesh to stone, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing
7 - conjure celestial, divine word, finger of death, regenerate, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, dominate monster, feeblemind, glibness, holy aura, mind blank, power word stun, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, imprisonment, power word heal, power word kill, wish

Shemesh (Lawful Evil Young God, Light domain):
0 - guidance, light, mending, message, produce flame, resistance, sacred flame, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, chromatic orb, color spray, command, compelled duel, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect evil and good, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, false life, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, protection from evil and good, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith
2 - aid, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, continual flame, enhance ability, enthrall, find steed, flame blade, gentle repose, heat metal, hold person, lesser restoration, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, scorching ray, see invisibility, silence, spiritual weapon, warding bond, zone of truth
3 - beacon of hope, bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, crusader's mantle, daylight, dispel magic, elemental weapon, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, water walk
4 - aura of purity, banishment, death ward, divination, dominate beast, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, locate creature, mordenkainen's private sanctum, stoneskin
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, dispel evil and good, dominate person, geas, greater restoration, hallow, hold monster, legend lore, mass cure wounds, planar binding, scrying, wall of force
6 - contingency, find the path, flesh to stone, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, sunbeam, true seeing
7 - conjure celestial, divine word, finger of death, prismatic spray, project image, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, control weather, dominate monster, holy aura, mind blank, power word stun, sunburst, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, power word heal, power word kill, prismatic wall, storm of vengeance, wish

Thoth-Amon (True Neutral Old One, Knowledge domain):
0 - guidance, light, mending, message, resistance, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, true strike
1 - alarm, armor of agathys, arms of hadar, bane, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, expeditious retreat, false life, feather fall, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, identify, inflict wounds, jump, mage armor, magic missile, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, unseen servant
2 - aid, arcane lock, augury, blindness/deafness, continual flame, darkness, detect thoughts, enhance ability, enthrall, find traps, gentle repose, gust of wind, hold person, lesser restoration, levitate, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic weapon, misty step, nystul's magic aura, phantasmal force, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, silence, spiritual weapon, warding bond
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, hunger of hadar, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, slow, speak with dead, spirit guardians
4 - arcane eye, banishment, death ward, dimension door, divination, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, leomund's secret chest, locate creature, mordenkainen's faithful hound, mordenkainen's private sanctum, otiluke's resilient sphere
5 - circle of power, commune, contact other plane, dominate person, dream, geas, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, modify memory, planar binding, raise dead, rary's telepathic bond, scrying
6 - arcane gate, contingency, disintegrate, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, planar ally, true seeing, wind walk
7 - divine word, finger of death, forcecage, reverse gravity, sequester, symbol
8 - antimagic field, clone, control weather, demiplane, dominate monster, holy aura, maze, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, foresight, imprisonment, power word kill, time stop, wish

Tiamat (Chaotic Evil Old One, Tempest domain):
0 - eldritch blast, fire bolt, guidance, light, message, produce flame, resistance, shocking grasp, spare the dying, thaumaturgy
1 - alarm, bane, bless, burning hands, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, divine favor, faerie fire, false life, feather fall, find familiar, guiding bolt, healing word, hellish rebuke, heroism, hex, identify, inflict wounds, mage armor, magic missile, sanctuary, shield of faith, tasha's hideous laughter, thunderwave, witch bolt
2 - aid, augury, blindness/deafness, continual flame, crown of madness, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, flaming sphere, gentle repose, gust of wind, heat metal, hold person, lesser restoration, levitate, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, prayer of healing, protection from poison, scorching ray, see invisibility, shatter, silence, spike growth, spiritual weapon
3 - bestow curse, call lightning, clairvoyance, counterspell, create food and water, dispel magic, fear, feign death, fireball, haste, hunger of hadar, hypnotic pattern, lightning bolt, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, speak with dead, stinking cloud, vampiric touch
4 - banishment, confusion, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, guardian of faith, ice storm, locate creature, stone shape
5 - circle of power, cloudkill, commune, contact other plane, destructive wave/destructive smite, flame strike, greater restoration, hallow, legend lore, mass cure wounds, modify memory, planar binding, scrying, telekinesis
6 - chain lightning, contingency, disintegrate, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, move earth, otto's irresistible dance, planar ally, sunbeam, true seeing
7 - divine word, fire storm, reverse gravity, symbol
8 - antimagic field, control weather, earthquake, holy aura, incendiary cloud, mind blank, power word stun, sunburst, trap the soul, tsunami
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, meteor swarm, storm of vengeance, weird, wish

Utukku (Chaotic Evil Old One, Nature domain):
0 - chill touch, dancing lights, druidcraft, guidance, light, mending, message, ray of frost, resistance, shillelagh, spare the dying, thaumaturgy, true strike
1 - alarm, animal friendship, armor of agathys, arms of hadar, bane, bless, command, create or destroy water, cure wounds, detect magic, detect poison and disease, disguise self, divine favor, faerie fire, false life, feather fall, find familiar, fog cloud, guiding bolt, healing word, heroism, hex, hunter's mark, identify, inflict wounds, jump, longstrider, purify food and drink, sanctuary, shield of faith, speak with animals
2 - animal messenger, augury, barkskin, beast sense, blindness/deafness, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, enthrall, find steed, gentle repose, gust of wind, hold person, invisibility, lesser restoration, locate animals or plants, locate object, magic weapon, nystul's magic aura, pass without trace, prayer of healing, protection from poison, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, spike growth, spiritual weapon
3 - bestow curse, clairvoyance, counterspell, dispel magic, fear, feign death, glyph of warding, haste, hunger of hadar, magic circle, mass healing word, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, remove curse, revivify, sending, sleet storm, speak with dead, vampiric touch, wind wall
4 - banishment, death ward, divination, evard's black tentacles, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, guardian of faith, ice storm, locate creature, mordenkainen's faithful hound
5 - circle of power, commune, commune with nature, cone of cold, contact other plane, dominate person, geas, greater restoration, hallow, mass cure wounds, planar binding, scrying
6 - contingency, find the path, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, harm, heal, heroes' feast, otiluke's freezing sphere, planar ally, true seeing, wall of ice, wind walk
7 - divine word, symbol
8 - antimagic field, antipathy/sympathy, control weather, holy aura, mind blank, trap the soul
9 - astral projection, imprisonment, wish

[Tenmujiin]

I still disagree with the removal of arcane classes since its the flavor not the mechanics you have a problem with especially with you reflavoring what is left anyway. Why do you feel the need to remove arcanes but not divines other than fluff?

Also, the psycic feat is WAY too powerful for non-casters. You should model it on the magic initiate feat in order to have it balanced, maybe make it a LITTLE more powerful by having the spell recharge on short rest or be usable with normal spell slots.

[Analytica]

I still disagree with the removal of arcane classes since its the flavor not the mechanics you have a problem with especially with you reflavoring what is left anyway. Why do you feel the need to remove arcanes but not divines other than fluff?

Also, the psycic feat is WAY too powerful for non-casters. You should model it on the magic initiate feat in order to have it balanced, maybe make it a LITTLE more powerful by having the spell recharge on short rest or be usable with normal spell slots.

Thanks for feedback! Noted re: Psychic, will do.

For the class restrictions, I think this is a matter of preference. Aside from the very restricted sets of psychic powers, I don't want there to be any way for anyone to do magic without the gods, because there should be no easy way out of the moral dilemma of having to do uncomfortable or evil things to achieve the magical outcomes. Because of that, I want all mechanical options that give magic to draw on divine sources. But if they do that, then why would, say, a cleric be able to do things like blessing the fields to be fertile but not the sorcerer, if they really are the same things? Therefore why I would want to make sure that the spell lists of the one class are the same as that of the other, because it otherwise seems odd that their capacities should not be the same here. I also want there to be in-world transitions between traditionally "arcane" and "divine" roles, and if the classes doing these things are different, there would either be clunky multiclassing or retraining, and I want to avoid either. That seems to me to leave either making wizard, sorcerer etc. divine casting classes also using these spell lists, which seems like a larger mechanical change where it's harder to tell balance effects and also to go more beyond the "default" assumptions of the basic rules than necessary, or to introduce new classes or class variants, which also means more changes to the basic rules, thereby making it more difficult to directly incorporate new rules options as they are published. That is how it currently would seem to me, but I may very well be missing some obvious easier solution. :)

(The closest option would seem to be to keep bard, wizard, sorcerer... but make them divine casters (or rather, to declare the difference void) and also give them the same spell list restrictions.)

[TheOOB]

I hate to be that guy, but I think you're using the wrong game for the setting you're looking for. Something like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Call of Cthulhu, or GURPS may be your speed. D&D is heroic fantasy, and every game mechanic of the system, reenforces that fact, which is not very lovecraftian.

[Analytica]

I hate to be that guy, but I think you're using the wrong game for the setting you're looking for. Something like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Call of Cthulhu, or GURPS may be your speed. D&D is heroic fantasy, and every game mechanic of the system, reenforces that fact, which is not very lovecraftian.

The thing is, I want to use a system that at least is not hostile to at some point formally releasing material that uses it either freely or for POD. GURPS I don't know about enough, is it an open system? CoC would work splendidly but seems entirely closed, WFRP seems both clunky and very tied to its original setting. I know 5E is not OGL like old d20, but it seems at least open to it. If there is any open-ish system that would work better, I would be interested in that. :)

[TheOOB]

The thing is, I want to use a system that at least is not hostile to at some point formally releasing material that uses it either freely or for POD. GURPS I don't know about enough, is it an open system? CoC would work splendidly but seems entirely closed, WFRP seems both clunky and very tied to its original setting. I know 5E is not OGL like old d20, but it seems at least open to it. If there is any open-ish system that would work better, I would be interested in that. :)

Just curious, why? I find that $30-$50 isn't that much for a game your group is going to play for months.

[Tenmujiin]

(The closest option would seem to be to keep bard, wizard, sorcerer... but make them divine casters (or rather, to declare the difference void) and also give them the same spell list restrictions.)

That's actually what i was suggesting, sorry if I wasn't clear. Also, I'm going to 2nd (3rd?) the idea that a different system would do this better. D&D is great for generic games but if you want something specific then a different system is probably going to do it better. That said some groups (like mine) refuse to even think about using a different system (we played 3.5e for about 5 years but avoided even pathfinder like the plague, mostly because the players in my group are lazy and hate reading :smallfrown:) and so I figured I would give advice on changing 5e.

[kaoskonfety]

The thing is, I want to use a system that at least is not hostile to at some point formally releasing material that uses it either freely or for POD. GURPS I don't know about enough, is it an open system? CoC would work splendidly but seems entirely closed, WFRP seems both clunky and very tied to its original setting. I know 5E is not OGL like old d20, but it seems at least open to it. If there is any open-ish system that would work better, I would be interested in that. :)

GURPS is as customizable as it gets and I recommend it strongly in most cases - but has alot of moving parts and option you would need to spell out. I love it to pieces but doing the game you suggest in Gurps would take moderate work or the source books for Cthulu horror setting or a similar idea/rules source. Cannot speak to the rest from DMing - Warhammer is very gritty though. Like if your players have all their limbs by session 4 you are fudging things gritty.

D&D works fine, the DMG has more than enough options to take the "High Fantasy Demi-god heroes" out if thats part of the goal.
Away from books, off the top of my head I'd suggest some or all of the following:
"Healer kit dependence", and "long rest doesn't fill HP, you need to spend hit dice" - these both make "healer" look better as a feat...
Horror and Madness rules
Sanity Trait
Massive Damage
Lingering injuries

At that point you are still using the core rules but the party will not be looking to get into unnecessary fights or confronting things with fear/horror based attacks. Toss in the hilarious combination of "many enemies are resistant/immune to non-magic attacks" and "most magic weapons come with some sort of not-very or Very-obvious curse" (quick idea blade, empowered by say... Tiamat: won't hurt devotees or subordinates of Tiamat - reduces wielders CON by 4 till long rest on an attempt to do so and the blade must strike a killing blow on a human each year or it loses its powers until it does so)

I'm not a fan of 8 hour short rests, week long rests unless your game is *very* non-combat or "combat as punishment" focused.


The spell lists look ok, I'd trim most of them back a fair bit myself but thats a taste/style thing - several cases of "X patron or 2 is the only source of Y spell" all the way up would be more my line. Doubly so with Theurgy available - it makes the feat more appealing.
- closer to: 2-3 level 9 spells each, very limited overlap; 7-9 level 1 spells each, some over lap.
I do like everyone getting astral projection, counter spell and a few other core pieces, but all of them having wish and bless I'm less keen on

Psychic is really potent. I'd be inclined to reskin "magic initiate" and buff it a little (say 2 cantrips and one 'warlock leveling' spell to cast the 1st level spell to get it scaling a bit more, allow the option to swap out the spell at level 3-5-7-9 for a higher level "similar spell" to show power development - ie: burning hands, flame blade, fireball, flame shield, flame strike)