Tell me your best ideas to mess with player expectations!

[Dralnu]

I think there's situations where you have to try really hard not to metagame, where the DM describes something and you just know what the "surprise" is going to be. It can be as simple as knowing the strengths/weaknesses of a monster because you read its statistics before, or it can be that the kindly old man you're helping is obviously a nefarious villain (what a twist!).

For example: gargoyles. I think they're really cool. I want to use them in an upcoming session to guard a necro-alchemist's estate. But I know the moment I say that the players see statues, they're immediately going to think gargoyles. How could they not? I haven't mentioned statues before in the entire campaign. So my trick is going to play "the long con." For this dungeon, all the statues will just be statues. And maybe the next place they go will be mundane statues. Eventually they'll just assume I like adding statues to my scenery, right? AND THEN THE GARGOYLES STRIKE!

What's your best stories/ideas of messing with your players' expectations?

[jkat718]

What's your best stories/ideas of messing with your players' expectations?

Asking "are you sure you want to do that?" after they do something potentially risky, even if I know it won't hurt them. Also, randomly rolling dice, all the time. Then smiling to myself. :smallamused:

[DireSickFish]

I want to run an aberration adventure and I think having a recurring person be a intellect devourer that rides around in different people. That way I get an "unkillable" villain as I just have the devourer get a hide check under the body after they "kill" him. They will probably suspect undead of some sort.

Homebrew is the standard answer to trip up players. Adding more hit points, taking away hit points because its a weaker version. Swapping around vulnerabilities because of the power source.

[HoarsHalberd]

Asking "are you sure you want to do that?" after they do something potentially risky, even if I know it won't hurt them. Also, randomly rolling dice, all the time. Then smiling to myself. :smallamused:

Are you my DM? Seriously, you just described his sadistic side perfectly.

[kaoskonfety]

General advise:
Roll dice and glance at notes often - sometimes it will mean something, usually it won't. Any time I make a decision that isn't a rule call, I roll dice and glance at a few things. Looked concerned while describing their success at failing to find the traps that are not there.

For those who know the monster manual front to back, borrow from Ravenloft - yes vampires are harmed by the wooden stake thing... well human vampires, Gnomes need to be staked with steel, Halflings taken 30 miles from their home lair... etc. do something like different linages get different weaknesses and powers.
Take a weakness or a strength and switch it out or make it more specific - only blessed silver hurts the werewolf, or gold, or unworked stone, or its skin cannot be cut (only bludgeoning does full damage, resistance to everything else). Keep a careful on on the monsters Challenge while doing this BTW - its easy to over do it

Use the gargoyle statblock (as a baseline at least) and core idea - but make the "statues" white marble and angelic, bronze guard dogs, jade lions - anything but "granite statues of Gargoyles"

Change up the resistances/appearances due to alchemy tampering and your are golden.

[FightStyles]

I like to ask for rolls without them asking for something. (perception is the best). And if they succeed, tell them something bogus. However, when they fail, smirk and say you don't hear anything "unusual". They usually respond with, "I unsheath my sword." or "I ready eldritch blast."

Or I'll make things appear to glow. You always check something out that's glowing right?

[Safety Sword]

"You don't find any traps".

"You don't notice anything unusual"

"Are you sure you want to do that?"

That's about all you need ;)

[Mrmox42]

"You think you heard something... probably a metallic sound... nah, probably nothing" - keeps them on their toes.

I have also found that putting a potion of Fire Resistance somewhere makes them absolutely convinced that they are about to meet something firebreathing.

I once put a lot of mounds of totally rusted suits of armor everywhere in a dungeon. This spooked the party fighters, as they were convinced that Rust Monsters were loose. So they took off their armor and put the Druid in front. This was bad when the Ogres attacked.
They had completely forgotten a simple fact: Rust Monsters EAT rust - they don't leave mounds of it behind. :smallsmile:

[JAL_1138]

Mess with monster alignment. Maybe those goblins stealing crops and livestock aren't chaotic evil, just starving and desperate and with no other options. And when the PCs are raiding the goblin cave, the "treasure" that one of the emaciated, pathetic creatures tries to protect (and, because PCs are PCs, gets killed for his/her trouble) is just an item off the trinket table: "a nightcap that, when worn, gives pleasant dreams," knitted crudely from coarse wool and of obvious goblin make...

Or something like that. Something that makes the players go "Oh God, what have we done? ;_; " for killing things and taking their stuff.

[Stan]

For example: gargoyles. I think they're really cool. I want to use them in an upcoming session to guard a necro-alchemist's estate. But I know the moment I say that the players see statues, they're immediately going to think gargoyles.

I've messed with that expectation by having a line of statues along a wide hall. They naturally stay far away so they step on the trap trigger that sprays that side of the hall with fire.

I've also had a statue be a hidden staircase - the only easy way up is to look closely and realize you have to climb up the scary statue.

Here's another thing to do with a statue:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/asia/mummified-monk-statue/index.html

[Shining Wrath]

I think it's important for the DM to make Perception and Investigate and Knowledge rolls; it limits the metagaming.

Agree with the rolling and paper shuffling (or flip through a few pages on your laptop).

Agree with the homebrew monsters; "You see an orc" should NOT tell them that this foe has a maximum of 22 HP (or, worse yet, exactly 15).

Other than that, adding detail to your descriptions of every room means that when you describe the room with the Important Thing in it, they won't be forewarned. That takes work.

[kaoskonfety]

Other than that, adding detail to your descriptions of every room means that when you describe the room with the Important Thing in it, they won't be forewarned. That takes work.

* more descriptions in general, good, if every castle they visit has assorted and interesting statuary (some of it monster themed), worn or fresh steps, lichen covered or not, smooth walls or scratched and worn... making the details matter sometimes means you always need to be giving details. Its doubling or more your general description writing and talk time but the results can astound.

Do the opposite and Go OLD SKOOL and ramp *up* the expectation of getting jumped in the dark by inanimate objects - run a scenario where the walls are monsters, the chests are monsters, the floors are monsters, the gold pieces are monsters, the hat and hats stand are monsters - have a dungeon all but (or totally) composed of monsters (the young-ish dragon they were sent to kill has been overwhelmed by assorted mimcs, they find it dead or hiding in a back corner and low on HP - begging for help, offering its horde (which she promises is not made of monsters, she'll even point out the cursed sword) and her word that she will leave mortal lands unmolested for the rest of its life "Just get me out of here!!!!"

[BRKNdevil]

I let my players find and open 3 chests without issue after a fight. Then i had another fight with the chests in the background, and after the fight they went and basically ran to open the chests to gain first dibs. They where mimics.

[Person_Man]

I tend to add realism to my games in ways that confound the players.

A dungeon that's home to intelligent creatures will have set up a bathroom, bedrooms, kitchen, living room, etc. If a sufficient number of creatures are living together, they will have children. When the players start exploring a dungeon, if they do something that would get them noticed by an intelligent creature living there, the creature coordinates with its allies and reacts accordingly. Other intelligent creatures with class levels exist in the game world, and they use their class abilities and spells intelligently. (Player's do not have exclusive use of divination, invisible familiars, Wish, etc). And if the players act like a bunch of murder hobos and leave behind evidence of their actions, someone lawful will eventually follow up on their crimes.

And most importantly, intelligent creatures do not always act consistently, even if they are from the same race. So if you encounter a clan of orcs, they might be entirely different from another clan of orcs living 50 miles away, just as real life humans have different beliefs, technology, tactics, laws, etc.

I don't do any of this to trick the players. All they have to do is observe the game world ask questions. Or they can just act and deal with the consequences, and learn from the results of those consequences.

[jkat718]

I don't do any of this to trick the players. All they have to do is observe the game world ask questions. Or they can just act and deal with the consequences, and learn from the results of those consequences.

That sounds like…real life. Ew. :smalltongue:

[Gnomes2169]

Well, I set up the scenario where a noble lady was ambushed in the nobles district by a lone assailant. The lady was attended upon by two heavily enchantment-ridden individuals (who turned out to be from noble houses, and who remembered none of the 20 years of mind control they had been subjected to), fled to a plane filled with fire when she was confronted by the party paladin, and was being hunted by a revenant. A really, really old revenant. Who called her a succubus. The paladin tells people about this lady in an attempt to purge the evil of the succubi taint from the great city of Baldur!

A few months later (out of character and in character), the party meets someone who, upon being told these suspicions by the paladin, basically says, "Uh, no she isn't?" The paladin's player brushes it off as denial.

She explains why the lady cannot possibly be a succubus (including listing her plane of origin and native plane as the material), the paladin's player becomes concerned.

The harper he talked to about this basically says, "Mmmmmmmyeah, she's not a succubus. And she would like an appology." The paladin's player threatens to hit me and demands to know what is going on here. I grin and tell him that he can ask her himself. I get hit.

The lady then explains why she isn't a succubus. This is a curse handed down from a demon lord by a maralith 500 years ago IC, which makes her kiss as deadly as a succubi's, makes anyone killed by it an eternal revenant who attempts to kill her (but always fails, since it wouldn't be an eternal quest otherwise), and made the lady immortal and unaging so that she would go through eternity retaining her beauty, but without feeling true love ever again. All because she wanted to try and keep the man she loved from leaving her.

My paladin's player feels horrible.

My work here is done.

[Zejety]

There is always that lever puzzle I've seen mentioned a couple times:

The party finds themselves in a closed room with some (hidden or visible) sealed exits. The only other important feture is a lever - feel free to add red herings though.
When the lever is pulled, a perceivable ominous countdown starts (1-5 minutes seems reasonable) and pulling it again resets the timer.
When the countdown hits zero...
...the doors open.

[kaoskonfety]

There is always that lever puzzle I've seen mentioned a couple times:

The party finds themselves in a closed room with some (hidden or visible) sealed exits. The only other important feture is a lever - feel free to add red herings though.
When the lever is pulled, a perceivable ominous countdown starts (1-5 minutes seems reasonable) and pulling it again resets the timer.
When the countdown hits zero...
...the doors open.

This is awful and hilarious.

This is awful hilarious.

[FightStyles]

There is always that lever puzzle I've seen mentioned a couple times:

The party finds themselves in a closed room with some (hidden or visible) sealed exits. The only other important feture is a lever - feel free to add red herings though.
When the lever is pulled, a perceivable ominous countdown starts (1-5 minutes seems reasonable) and pulling it again resets the timer.
When the countdown hits zero...
...the doors open.

I am FightStyles, and I approve of this message.

[Fwiffo86]

Tell your players that instead of 5e, they will be playing RIFTS.

[Naanomi]

Set up expectations for an adventure then switch after preparations are made.
-on the way to Fire island, ship sinks and now in puzzle loving marid's underwater palace
-go kill giant, kobolds drove him away and trapped his lair in case he returns
-asked to kill illithid, it was really illusion using fey
-clear out zombie apocalypse, angry celestials already dealt with it

Or make them think they won but make the post-adventure tough
- killed the cult, stopped the sacrifice... Now get the sorcerous baby back to town safe
-kill the dragon, now all the once-fearful tribes rush for a piece of the horde
-you got the Kings crown back... But he hired many adventuring parties have been hired and they are willing to take it from you before you can return it

[Inevitability]

The players are hunting a necromancer and fight their way to his throne room. There, the mad mage snaps his fingers and various skulls rise from the ground, flying around and biting the PC's. The cleric, panicked, Turns Undead... and nothing happens.

Why? Animate Objects, that's why.

[JAL_1138]

* more descriptions in general, good, if every castle they visit has assorted and interesting statuary (some of it monster themed), worn or fresh steps, lichen covered or not, smooth walls or scratched and worn... making the details matter sometimes means you always need to be giving details. Its doubling or more your general description writing and talk time but the results can astound.

Do the opposite and Go OLD SKOOL and ramp *up* the expectation of getting jumped in the dark by inanimate objects - run a scenario where the walls are monsters, the chests are monsters, the floors are monsters, the gold pieces are monsters, the hat and hats stand are monsters - have a dungeon all but (or totally) composed of monsters (the young-ish dragon they were sent to kill has been overwhelmed by assorted mimcs, they find it dead or hiding in a back corner and low on HP - begging for help, offering its horde (which she promises is not made of monsters, she'll even point out the cursed sword) and her word that she will leave mortal lands unmolested for the rest of its life "Just get me out of here!!!!"

I'd like to offer a twist on this: starts off the same, everything trying to kill you...the ceiling is a monster, the floor is a monster, the walls are monsters, any water has a water weird in it, the coins are all lock lurkers, EVERYTHING (and pretty much all of those were in the 2e Monstrous Compendium), and anything that's not a monster is trapped or cursed. Even something as common and harmless as a little minnow turns out to be (this was a real creature) the size-changing Death Minnow, capable of swallowing a grown human in one gulp and then returning to minnow size.

...and, the twist, if they live through that, don't use a single trap or monster again for a long time. Watch them poke and prod everything with a 10ft pole, check for traps on every door, etc. Only break out the traps, curses, and monsters again if they get complacent and start thinking the threat is over. You'll scar your players for LIFE.

...and I do mean life...to this very day my characters have a marked tendency to be paranoid nutcases convinced that the every creature and object they encounter is trying to kill them.

[kaoskonfety]

...and I do mean life...to this very day my characters have a marked tendency to be paranoid nutcases convinced that the every creature and object they encounter is trying to kill them.

I attack the gazebo!

[Rallicus]

"Hey, what's that writing under the symbol on the left page? Maybe it's a clue."

KABOOM.

Thank you based Vaarsuvius.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Rallard88/DND/skyrim_blankbook_of_fate.jpg

[Inevitability]

"Hey, what's that writing under the symbol on the left page? Maybe it's a clue."

KABOOM.

Thank you based Vaarsuvius.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Rallard88/DND/skyrim_blankbook_of_fate.jpg

What does it say, though? It's too small to read.

[Zweisteine]

What does it say, though? It's too small to read.
You on a small screen?

In any case...
Greetings, my apprentice. How very brave of you to snatch the book from my golem's grasp.

Do you grow tired of the Marid already? No doubt; you came here to learn, not to run an Inn.

Here is your first test. A simple riddle. When you're ready, speak thus: "My answer is..." and you should be granted entry. Provided it's correct, of course. If not, your journey will end here.

Sometimes it's black
Sometimes it's blue
Sometimes it's painful
Sometimes it's true.

[Daishain]

You on a small screen?

In any case...
I believe he was referencing the text under the symbol on the left page.

I zoomed in, but the resolution is too low to make much out. It looks like it might be "my long silence"

[RedMage125]

"You don't find any traps".

"You don't notice anything unusual"

"Are you sure you want to do that?"

That's about all you need ;)

Back in 3.x, I started insisting on doing the rolling for any trapfinding attempts when I DM. Namely because my players started reacting differently when they rolled a 19 and found no traps, vis rolling a 3 and finding no traps. SO now they tell me their Search modifier, I roll a die, and tell them if they find any traps or not. This way, the trap-searcher firmly believes there were no traps there.

Another quote my players came to love/hate was "You trust him implicitly", usually in response to failed Sense Motive checks. However, I also make a Bluff check whenever a player declares they wish to actively Sense Motive, but I have a house rule that anyone who believes that they are telling the truth has a +40 modifier on such a check. This is something I tell my players, so that when they do declare Sense Motive, and I roll a die behind my screen, there is no way to tell the difference between a REALLY good liar and someone who is absolutely telling the honest truth. Which is how a good liar would come across, isn't it? ;).

EDIT: Accidentally hit Submit before I was done.

Here's my story of subverting expectations. This was a 4e game, and the players are in a city that has a paranoia regarding fiend-worshipping cults, as there had been a couple in the city's history that had caused major problems for the town. On a side note, the town is kind of racist towards tieflings (but oddly enough, is one of the few places where drow live openly and are accepted...long story).

So anyway, the players come to town and there's a problem. There's been a rash of disturbances in the cemetery outside of town. Graves are being violated, and in the wake of these violations, strange symbols are being left behind, painted on the floors and walls. Those who have been in the cemetery at night have heard strange chanting, as well as haunting, wailing moans. The paladin order of Dawn Knights (serving the sun god) has stepped up their patrols of the cemetery at night, as well as the local chapter of Platinum Knights (paladins of Bahamut), but no one has found anything. People are suspecting that cultists are worshipping demons and raising undead (which points towards a cult of Orcus, for the PC who made his Religion check).

Here's the twist, when the players started seriously investigating, they learned that no bodies were missing, but they were frequently moved and sometimes dismembered. Alll of the breakins occurred in mausoleums, and not the bodies buried in coffins in the ground (which would be easier to dig up than breaking into a mausoleum and moving heavy stone sarcophagi).

To sum it all up (and what my players eventually discovered), is there was no cult in the cemetery. There was a group of kenku thieves who were simply graverobbing, with the help of a small family of wererats. The wererats were doing most of the heavy lifting, while the kenku hid and stood lookout, imitating chanting voices of "cultists" and moans of undead. Well, the party tracked them to the sewers and while looking for their hideout, encountered a group of people wandering the sewers, apparently lost (more on that in a moment). After defeating the kenku leader and recovering the treasures they had dug up, they heard something from one of the pipes. one level above them, there was an ACTUAL cult of Orcus that few in the city even knew about. When they found the cultists' lair, they found a gnome cultist waiting in the sewers for some new recruits to the cult (remember those lost people earlier?). When they broke in and started busting heads in the cult, they found a paladin of Bahamut had already killed the leader of the cult and disrupted a demon-summoning ritual (partially anyway, a demon still came out but it was a lesser demon).

The party ended up being kidnapped that night before they could take their findings to anyone, and when they returned to the city, they found that this paladin, Alastor, had gotten all the credit for stopping the cult, and that since the graverobbings stopped as well, the whole city just accepted as truth that it was this cult that had been behind it all. The paladin, Alastor was promoted and started taking a bigger hand in running the city, as he was suddenly very popular. He became a quest giver for the PCs (he was very sorry for getting the credit, but the city's leaders didn't want to wait for the PCs to reappear), and had them go on a few quests to stamp out evil elsewhere.

Much later, they get sent on another quest. I copy/pasted this from another thread, so please excuse the repeat details:
The players are about to travel to a continent of Dragonborn, ruled over by dragons (place has a kind of Oriental Adventures theme, with true dragons as daimyos over dragonborn samurai, nobles, and commoners), called The Drakkensrad. They are searching for the blade of a legendary paladin, which involves breaking into his tomb and retrieving the pieces.

The legend of this paladin: Legend speaks of a famous knight of Bahamut, whose name has been lost to history. He is known now only as The Platinum Champion. It was said that he was marked with the favor of Bahamut his whole life, and was a mighty Paladin and Platinum Knight. In the legend, he had a brother, also a knight, whose name is also no longer remembered. Over time, the Champion's deeds garnered much fame, and jealousy grew in his borther's heart. Jealousy grew, and deepened, and turned to hate. The Champion's brother fell to the influence of Falazure, the Night Dragon, and became a Death Knight. He is known now to history only as The Bone Knight, and after his treason was discovered, his name was stricken from all records (hence why his name is unknown). The Bone Knight raised a great army of undead to assault the city of Mount Argent, the center of Bahamut's faith in Drakkensari lands. The Platinum Champion met his former brother in combat during the battle, and so fierce was their conflict, that all other combatants gave them a wide berth. As the sun set and darkness crept in, the Bone Knight's power grew. Just before the sun set completely behind the horizon, the Bone Knight struck a massive blow. But the Champion intercepted this blow, and there was a great explosion of radiant and necrotic energy. When it was gone, only the Champion's blade, broken clean in two, remained. Bereft of their general, the undead army faltered, and was wiped out by the remaining paladins. Even with no body to bury, the knights created a grand tomb to honor his memory, and his blade was placed in his sarcophagus. The blade itself was reputed to be a divine gift from Bahamut. A righteous weapon to combat Evil.
The party hears this tale from an NPC Paladin of Bahamut in human lands, Alastor. The party has helped him, and taken quests from him a few times already. He is very popular in his home city, and is gradually intorducing new means of protecting the people. He is very zealous in his quest to protect his people from evil. He has recieved a visitation from an angel of Bahamut, who has told him that if he could recover this blade, it could be reforged, and it would be a great symbol of the favor of Bahamut upon him, strengthening the faith of Bahamut in his city, bringing in new converts to the faith, and creating a new Platinum Age of enlightenment and Good.
The kicker: The blade in the tomb is not that of the Platinum Champion, but rather, the broken rune weapon of the Bone Knight, who was banished to the Shadowfell in the explosion. The Bone Knight has sought the recovery of his sword, but has been unable to penetrate the tomb to recover it, as he is nearly powerless without it. When the party is in the Drakkensrad, they will find an old and decrepit dragonborn scholar who helps them to find the tomb, in exchange for the chance to study the blade. The scholar is, of course, the Bone Knight, who has managed to return from the Shadowfell, and he can restore his weapon with a touch, thus restoring him to full power.

And the twist: The "angel" that has visited the Paladin is a disguised succubus. His control over the city gradually grows more and more overt, and creates a new order in the city. In an effort to "protect" people from sin, he begins a very harsh and strict regime, eventually becoming an oppressive dictator, all in the name of "good". The succubus serves the Evil god of Tyranny, Rulership and Fear in my world (named Bridenal), and seeks to turn him into a harsh tyrant. I expect a pretty sweet battle once the party discovers this. All part of my master plan to devise a Lawful Good antagonist.

By the way, the real twist to the whole story: Despite the fact that the Platinum Champion is always depicted in murals as a dragonborn, he was not. He was a Deva. The Drakensari people recognized him for what he was, a chosen herald of Bahamut. His "brother" was obviously not a blood relation, but they were as close as brothers. He died in the explosion that shattered the Bone Knight's sword, and started a new incarnation somewhere else, leaving no body behind. His sword was swept into the shadowfell with the Bone Knight, and I plan (later in Paragon tier) for the party to eventually recover the true blade. The sword will be one of the kinds of weapons that can also function as a holy symbol (crusaders weapon or the like). The party cleric is a Deva Cleric of Bahamut (Wis/Cha, uses holy symbols). When he touches it, memories of his past life come flooding back to him, and he finally realizes that HE was the Platinum Champion in a former life.
Dun...Dun...DUUUUUUUUNNNN!!

How's all that for twisting expectations?

[Inevitability]

You on a small screen?

I was referring to the small text.

[ruy343]

I find that one of the best ways to throw players off-guard is to make every encounter have a twist, no matter how small. The heroes are chasing an enemy up a tower? Make it a clock tower with moving gears so that they have to think about their moves.

Heroes entering a trapped room with snakes that erupt from holes near the floor? Have a grell swoop in from above in the confusion (nobody is gonna roll a perception check in a simple combat encounter like that) and grab someone at the back of the party to carry away to their lair above the action.

Have a social encounter with the bad guy's lieutenant? Force the players to defend him against a bunch of enemies if they want his trust and/or information. Maybe the lieutenant is using the distraction to slip away in the firefight, while acting like he'll help out until the bad guys come to save him.

I feel that it's about always putting a little extra thought into the encounter. It's well worth it.

[Inchoroi]

I think there's situations where you have to try really hard not to metagame, where the DM describes something and you just know what the "surprise" is going to be. It can be as simple as knowing the strengths/weaknesses of a monster because you read its statistics before, or it can be that the kindly old man you're helping is obviously a nefarious villain (what a twist!).

For example: gargoyles. I think they're really cool. I want to use them in an upcoming session to guard a necro-alchemist's estate. But I know the moment I say that the players see statues, they're immediately going to think gargoyles. How could they not? I haven't mentioned statues before in the entire campaign. So my trick is going to play "the long con." For this dungeon, all the statues will just be statues. And maybe the next place they go will be mundane statues. Eventually they'll just assume I like adding statues to my scenery, right? AND THEN THE GARGOYLES STRIKE!

What's your best stories/ideas of messing with your players' expectations?

I bought a Yes/No die from Chessix (you have to special order them...was annoyed). Whenever someone makes a joke about something happening, it gets rolled. If its a Yes, it happens--no matter what it was that was suggested. They still make jokes, even though occasionally bad things happen to them; once had the bard of the party chat up a rather elderly and portly secretary, and another player made a joke about her falling in love with the bard. Die gets rolled, comes up Yes. Don't ask how, but she is now a revenant hunting the bard down.

[Rallicus]

I was referring to the small text.

It was "ka boom suckers."

I suppose the riddle itself was a means of messing with players' expectations as well; the answer to it was "My answer is..."

The sentences beneath it were just a sort of red herring and completely irrelevant.

[Zyzzyva]

I once put a lot of mounds of totally rusted suits of armor everywhere in a dungeon...

That's wonderful. :smallbiggrin:


...run a scenario where the walls are monsters, the chests are monsters, the floors are monsters, the gold pieces are monsters, the hat and hats stand are monsters...

Ooooh, I really like that one. I just love the image of the party and the "villain" teaming up to escape The Dungeon That Eats You. :smallbiggrin:


There is always that lever puzzle I've seen mentioned a couple times...

That is some old school, Gary-Gygax-is-a-jerk trap building right there. I like it.


Don't ask how...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's because of Yes/No dice? :small tongue:

~~~

My personal best expectation-messing wasn't that bad, just a side-quest, but I thought it was funny: they were hired by the castellan of the principality they were passing through, to rescue their princess who had been captured by the neighbouring kingdom. Party is enthused, because you know, adventure hook, but also cracking Mario jokes and bitching about NPC escort quests. They break into the fort, overcome some guards, find the cell, and the princess is a 40yo Half-Orc Fighter/$party_level. The castellan didn't want to ruin her carefully-cultivated reputation by revealing she'd let herself be taken alive in battle or paying the ransom. I made sure to tell them they were in a principality at least three times and they were still blindsided by it. So much fun. :smallamused:

(Well, that and the time in Paranoia when I sent them to fix a robot whose only problem was that it was turned off. That sucker was powder by the end of the session. But that's about standard for Paranoia, I think. :smallwink:)

[Dralnu]

I've messed with that expectation by having a line of statues along a wide hall. They naturally stay far away so they step on the trap trigger that sprays that side of the hall with fire.

I've also had a statue be a hidden staircase - the only easy way up is to look closely and realize you have to climb up the scary statue.

Here's another thing to do with a statue:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/asia/mummified-monk-statue/index.html

Very clever! I'm going to use this in an upcoming session.


It was "ka boom suckers."

I suppose the riddle itself was a means of messing with players' expectations as well; the answer to it was "My answer is..."

The sentences beneath it were just a sort of red herring and completely irrelevant.

I fondly remember using V's trick myself years ago. My PCs were getting ready to storm the wizard's study room when they noticed some small writing on the door. "I prepared Explosive Runes this morning." Boom! And the explosion alerted the wizard and his minions.

This is taking it to the next level. I'm very impressed. Permission to borrow this trap?



I've got another simple but effective one. The PCs come across a group of enemies including a wizard in robes and a warrior in full plate with blade out and ready. The PCs yell to take down the wizard first and try to enchant the warrior, the usual.

Turns out the wizard in robes is actually a monk. The warrior in full plate is the wizard, he just has training in full plate.

I lifted this tactic from a devious DM that did the above scenario in 3.5, except even more nefarious, the monk was a vampire -- each unarmed strike gave negative levels!

[Rallicus]

This is taking it to the next level. I'm very impressed. Permission to borrow this trap?

Absolutely. I'm honored that someone liked it enough to ask permission to use it. :p

You could be like me and put an NPC/companion in the blast radius for extra nefariousness, but if your players are anything like mine they'll look at the subsequent pile of ash, shrug, and move on.

[campskully]

If you want them to ignore your gargoyles as a threat, present them as a puzzle. Set them up to be doing odd poses and have them point to objects around the room based on perception checks, when they get one person alone, they strike. It's stuff like this that gets dice thrown at me but it's well worth it. In general, just present them like they're something else entirely. "You meet" is a great way to make enemies appear as NPCs and always ALWAYS have two traps in a row. The trip wire in front of the pressure plate...

[DiscipleofBob]

I had an idea for a campaign that I'll probably never get to run: have your characters roll up characters for whatever edition you're playing. In this case, it was 4e. Run a few encounters. Let them get used to their characters. Then have them in a large network of abandoned ruins when they come across a large magical divide. If they step through, make it clear through descriptions that this is the empire before it fell to ruins, thousands of years ago.

Then hand them the 3.5 versions of their characters you created in secret.

Feel free to substitute any editions if your choice here. Extra fun if they are routinely forced back and forth from the past and present, or possibly even the future with 5e.

[JNAProductions]

Bonus points: Hand them GURPS sheets. :P

[CrusaderJoe]

Villagers: The white dragon had attacked us many times

PC's: Let's Kill it!

PC's: Let's stock up on items and spells that defend against cold!

PC's versus Dragon: Die you white dragon!

Dragon: You racist PCs, I'm an albino red dragon *fire breath*

[goto124]

Well, I set up the scenario where a noble lady was ambushed in the nobles district by a lone assailant. The lady was attended upon by two heavily enchantment-ridden individuals (who turned out to be from noble houses, and who remembered none of the 20 years of mind control they had been subjected to), fled to a plane filled with fire when she was confronted by the party paladin, and was being hunted by a revenant. A really, really old revenant. Who called her a succubus. The paladin tells people about this lady in an attempt to purge the evil of the succubi taint from the great city of Baldur!

A few months later (out of character and in character), the party meets someone who, upon being told these suspicions by the paladin, basically says, "Uh, no she isn't?" The paladin's player brushes it off as denial.

She explains why the lady cannot possibly be a succubus (including listing her plane of origin and native plane as the material), the paladin's player becomes concerned.

The harper he talked to about this basically says, "Mmmmmmmyeah, she's not a succubus. And she would like an appology." The paladin's player threatens to hit me and demands to know what is going on here. I grin and tell him that he can ask her himself. I get hit.

The lady then explains why she isn't a succubus. This is a curse handed down from a demon lord by a maralith 500 years ago IC, which makes her kiss as deadly as a succubi's, makes anyone killed by it an eternal revenant who attempts to kill her (but always fails, since it wouldn't be an eternal quest otherwise), and made the lady immortal and unaging so that she would go through eternity retaining her beauty, but without feeling true love ever again. All because she wanted to try and keep the man she loved from leaving her.

My paladin's player feels horrible.

My work here is done.

Sometimes I look at things like this and wonder: what makes the player go 'that was a great story and I feel bad' instead of 'sheesh what kind of lame pullout was that? The DM just trying to make me feel bad for something I could not know about?'

(I even have a character who thinks the latter about his/her family. ICly.)

[heavyfuel]

@OP and your Gargoyle problem: I always describe statues. 50% of the time, that's exactly what they are. 45% of the time, they're just booby-trapped. 5% of the time, they're actually relevant (gargoyle, mimics, plot-point, etc).

My players have quickly learned not to play with my statues.

[Gritmonger]

I just started putting items important to figure out what was going on in plain sight.

Say, there was a pile of debris. It hid a series of corpses in various states of decay, buried under them, with some giant centipedes about.

It turned out to be the "larder" of a Carrion Crawler where, true to fluff text, it was aging corpses to be easier to eat.

And of course it was close by.

Later, there was a small, conical pile of debris including some gold coins and other items up against a wall. And one of the characters just walked right up to it.

It was the pile of items too large to go with the Ochre Jelly back into its one-inch-hole lair in the wall above.

And it came out when it heard somebody fiddling with the coins.

After a while, they started to pay attention to what's going on in the terrain and the decor.

Now, I can put just about anything there, and it immediately grabs their attention.

[Zyzzyva]

@OP and your Gargoyle problem: I always describe statues. 50% of the time, that's exactly what they are. 45% of the time, they're just booby-trapped. 5% of the time, they're actually relevant (gargoyle, mimics, plot-point, etc).

My players have quickly learned not to play with my statues.

Have a series of rooms full of horrified adventurer statues trying to avert their gaze. Do not put a basilisk in the dungeon. Watch as your party stumbles around in blindfolds forever.

[kaoskonfety]

Have a series of rooms full of horrified adventurer statues trying to avert their gaze. Do not put a basilisk in the dungeon. Watch as your party stumbles around in blindfolds forever.

The statues were commisioned by the sneak theives who run the place and want you jumping at shadows and averting your gaze - some of them have some pretty convincing (in dim light) medusa costumes

[Naanomi]

The statues were commisioned by the sneak theives who run the place and want you jumping at shadows and averting your gaze - some of them have some pretty convincing (in dim light) medusa costumes
And excellent small-sized pick pockets hiding in secret compartments in the statues

[Fyorl]

And the twist: The "angel" that has visited the Paladin is a disguised succubus. His control over the city gradually grows more and more overt, and creates a new order in the city. In an effort to "protect" people from sin, he begins a very harsh and strict regime, eventually becoming an oppressive dictator, all in the name of "good". The succubus serves the Evil god of Tyranny, Rulership and Fear in my world (named Bridenal), and seeks to turn him into a harsh tyrant. I expect a pretty sweet battle once the party discovers this. All part of my master plan to devise a Lawful Good antagonist.

Can't Paladins detect evil anymore?

[Talderas]

Your chief weapon to mess with player expectations is surprise... surprise and fear... er your two weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency... let me start over... your three weapons are fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to roleplaying.. er... your four... no among your weapons.... among your weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise.... you know what I'll just post later.

[Dralnu]

"Hey, what's that writing under the symbol on the left page? Maybe it's a clue."

KABOOM.

Thank you based Vaarsuvius.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Rallard88/DND/skyrim_blankbook_of_fate.jpg

I thought of one issue that I'd need to resolve before running this.

My players always read puzzles out loud. Always. So, if I'm interpreting this puzzle correctly, they'd solve it immediately by accident.

I'll have to modify the puzzle so it's equally easy to solve but they won't accidentally solve it just by reading.


If you want them to ignore your gargoyles as a threat, present them as a puzzle. Set them up to be doing odd poses and have them point to objects around the room based on perception checks, when they get one person alone, they strike.

I actually ran a puzzle involving statues before with this group. Actually, I ran the encounter with two seperate playgroups. You're absolutely right -- when set up as a puzzle, the players didn't even consider checking to see if it's a gargoyle.

I'll definitely do it this way. Now to just come up with an appropriate puzzle!


Villagers: The white dragon had attacked us many times

PC's: Let's Kill it!

PC's: Let's stock up on items and spells that defend against cold!

PC's versus Dragon: Die you white dragon!

Dragon: You racist PCs, I'm an albino red dragon *fire breath*

I laughed out loud at this. Love it!


Have a series of rooms full of horrified adventurer statues trying to avert their gaze. Do not put a basilisk in the dungeon. Watch as your party stumbles around in blindfolds forever.

Yes!

[CrusaderJoe]

I laughed out loud at this. Love it!


Glad to hear that :), the players learned to ask questions before charging into a fight. They were spared but shamed.

[Talderas]

Yes!

Really, there's a running theme in this thread. The typical ways to mess with expectation is to either avert or subvert the expectation.

I'm working on designing a setting right now that changes a lot of the normal assumptions in D&D while still utilizing a lot of the normal naming conventions.

For example, I have dwarves but players can't be anything but human (I basically say choose whatever race you want but you're human). My dwarves look like dwarves, they talk like dwarves, they act a bit like dwarves.... and that's where the sameness ends. I've given the proclivity towards gadgetry that gnomes are known for but I made every dwarf an absent-minded professor so it's kind of similar to the typical dwarf instead of being a crafter they're a tinker. For everyone that's ever seen Titan A.E. think of a race Gunes, building potentially dangerous gadgets that can do wonderful things but they oftentimes have no idea what they do. None of the dwarves know their parents or where they come from. They just seem to show up as children randomly across the world and they all have an urge to migrate to this once city that was established by dwarves where they all live in dwellings that are built into and around one grove.

So that's one type of expectation. You have a number of things you can reasonably predict about various creatures or settings because of the standard array of tropes associated with them. By redefining the creature while keeping its name you end up with something that can defy expectation although you now have to deal with the expectations that the players develop regarding the new identity. Even then you can still vary things up quite a bit when dealing with an intelligent creature.

I generally dislike subverting expecations by using "traps". If you're trying to run a campaign full of suspense or paranoia it's a good thing but if you use it too frequently players will adjust their behaviors around these traps and it could lead to unnecessary delays as paranoia takes hold.

[RedMage125]

Villagers: The white dragon had attacked us many times

PC's: Let's Kill it!

PC's: Let's stock up on items and spells that defend against cold!

PC's versus Dragon: Die you white dragon!

Dragon: You racist PCs, I'm an albino red dragon *fire breath*

Had a plan like this once. Have the players hear about the "Great White Dragon" of the Grey Mountains to the north, let them stock up on Fire abilites and anti-Cold protections...

...only to find out that it was the Great Wight Dragon, and before it was turned into a draconic undead monstrosity...it was Red, and is thus immune to fire (Wight Template in Savage Species).

[AmbientRaven]

I do things like use burrowing enemies.

I had one encounter in adwarven ruin where modrons had taken up residence, but rust monsters had stolen their gods "heart" (A adamantine golem, infused with the spirit of a long dead dwarf).
One spoke ancient dwarven (dont ask..) so could barely speak to the lead modron.
eat...heart......teeth.....kill....alll"

The players were convinced for the whole dungeon they would be facing some huge monster that could eat adamantium. Ended with a room of rust monsters (well that quest did, not the dungeon.)

in the same dungeon they came to a room waist deep in bones. Some where moving, ended up being a bone naga "swimming" through the bones.

My favorite way to mess with players is to have monsters not act the traditional way. They knew going in i changed 100% of the monsters, so the odds of running into a tribe of good vegan goblins was as likely as blood thirsty evil ones. It makes them very hesitant to just rush into combat.

perception checks they always hear something, could be nothing, could be something.

[goto124]

"Dragon: You racist PCs, I'm an albino red dragon *fire breath*"

My PC would ROFL out of the dragon'e cave while everyone else stares IC and OOC.