Bow Expert?

[Kryx]

Has anyone made a homebrew Bow Master feat? I'd like to offer the ability for Bows to be able to compete with Crossbow Expert.

Options that I had thought of:

You can make melee attacks with your bow. Treat it as a finesse quarterstaff for a longbow or a d4/d6 versatile quarterstaff for a shortbow.
Flat damage
Manyshot type ability: As a replacement for an attack you can fire 2 arrows that do not add any form of additional damage. The arrows must be targeted at the same creature or another creature within 10 feet of the original target.
Rain of Arrows type ability: Shoot a cluster of arrows that hits a 2x2 square and the creature there make dex saves


#1 I think is a great flavorful alternative to Crossbow Expert's preventing Disadvantage at melee
#2 is boring.
#3 & #4 are very hard to balance. Either they're amazing and always used or are never used.

Are there any feats out there already? Or any suggestions?

[Easy_Lee]

I always liked the idea of being able to melee attack with a drawn arrow. Just taking away the penalties for close range would be a pretty great feature. Typically these kinds of features enable some sort of bonus attack, so I would do something like this:

May draw and stab a foe with an arrow as a melee or opportunity attack. Damage is 1d4+Dex mod
Once per round, when you make a ranged attack with a longbow or shortbow, you can fire two arrows instead of one. Neither arrow adds your dexterity modifier to its damage, but these shots can target multiple foes and their attacks are rolled separately.

That makes the feat distinct from crossbow expert. You're firing the same number of arrows and dealing less damage, but you don't have to spend your bonus action and you can make opportunity attacks. I would probably do it like that.

[Kryx]

May draw and stab a foe with an arrow as a melee or opportunity attack. Damage is 1d4+Dex mod

This is great. Would you combine this with the first one I listed? Makes meleeing with bows pretty cool



Once per round, when you make a ranged attack with a longbow or shortbow, you can fire two arrows instead of one. Neither arrow adds your dexterity modifier to its damage, but these shots can target multiple foes and their attacks are rolled separately.
My concern with this feature (same a #3 in mine) is that it adds damage from hunter's mark and Colossus slayer. At that point I think a bow is significantly better than a crossbow. The only way to prevent that is prevent extra dice from adding. Or maybe only allow extra dice on the first attack.

[Easy_Lee]

My concern with this feature (same a #3 in mine) is that it adds damage from hunter's mark and Colossus slayer. At that point I think a bow is significantly better than a crossbow. The only way to prevent that is prevent extra dice from adding. Or maybe only allow extra dice on the first attack.

I was figuring that, since crossbow expert allows a bonus attack while this doesn't, it would work out close to the same. Sample 20 fighter makes 5 attacks with crossbow expert at 1d6+5, or four attacks with bow master at 1d8+5 plus one at 1d8. 42.5DPR vs. 42.5 DPR, same number of targets, same number of attacks.

It makes longbow a bit better for rangers than a hand crossbow, since they keep their bonus for using hunter's mark and can get two bonus attacks from swift quiver instead of one from xbow expert.

That said, it may be wise to limit the double shot to 2*1d4 or so just for the sake of balance.

[Myzz]

mine was as follows:

Longbow Expert
*requires proficiency with Longbow, 14 Dex
1. Being within 5 ft of a hostile creature does not impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls against other creatures.
2. When a creature first enters within 5 ft of you, you may use your reaction to make a dex based melee attack with the arrow (1d4 piercing) or a str based attack using your bow as a club (1d4 bludgeoning).
3. As a bonus action on your turn you may make a dex based melee attack with the arrow (1d4 piercing) or a str based attack using your bow as a club (1d4 bludgeoning) against a creature within 5 foot.


the point was too not step on any toes and provide essentially the same bonus as Crossbow Expert, but specific to longbows. The vision was to be all Legolassi!

[Slipperychicken]

Options that I had thought of:

You can make melee attacks with your bow. Treat it as a finesse quarterstaff for a longbow or a d4/d6 versatile quarterstaff for a shortbow.
Flat damage
Manyshot type ability: As a replacement for an attack you can fire 2 arrows that do not add any form of additional damage. The arrows must be targeted at the same creature or another creature within 10 feet of the original target.
Rain of Arrows type ability: Shoot a cluster of arrows that hits a 2x2 square and the creature there make dex saves


Being a hunter ranger lets you do #3 (extra attack) and #4 (volley). Improvised weapon rules let you do #1. I have no idea what #2 is supposed to be.

[heavyfuel]

#4 is a Ranger ability already, no need to give it everyone willing to spend a feat.

I say remove #4, add a Rapid Shot option to make an additional attack with a Bonus Action (which can then be replaced with a Manyshot)

If it's too weak, add +1 Dex and call it a day


Being a hunter ranger lets you do #3 (extra attack). Improvised weapon rules let you do #1. I have no idea what #2 is supposed to be.

Extra Attack isn't that. Extra Attack gives you two attacks, the feat would give you the ability to make 2 attacks for every attack (up to 4 attacks with Extra Attack; up to 16 Attacks for a lv20 Fighter using Action Surge), but without any modifiers to them.

Improvised Weapons don't let you add your prof bonus to them, which is pretty bad. They're also not finessable.

I believe #2 is supposed to be "+X damage" with Bows

[Kryx]

#4 is a Ranger ability already, no need to give it everyone willing to spend a feat.
I was unaware, and agree.


Improvised Weapons don't let you add your prof bonus to them, which is pretty bad. They're also not finessable.
Which is why this feat is meant to improve them in this one case. It's still slightly worse than the option provided to ignore disadvantage for crossbows. It's more flavorful though and many feats change core rules. I'll clarify the wording so it only works on attacks, not opportunity attacks.


Here is what I have so far:

Bow Expert

When you make a melee attack with a bow as part of an attack action you can treat it as a finesse weapon that does d6 bludgeoning damage (versatile d8) for a longbow or a d4 (versatile d6) for a shortbow.
As an Opportunity Attack you may stab a target with an arrow. You are considered proficient with this finesse weapon and deal 1d4 piercing damage.
Once per round, when you make a ranged attack with a bow, you can fire two arrows instead of one. Neither arrow adds your dexterity modifier to its damage, but these shots can target multiple foes and their attacks are rolled separately. A different target must be within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.


I've created a google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit?usp=sharing) for this. I assumed crossbow/bow mastery isn't taken until 4 and no other feats are taken. I made sure that Colossus Slayer only applies once while hunter's mark can apply multiple times.

Here is the chart http://i.imgur.com/hNsmGOf.png

The chart assumes that crossbow expert already has hunter's mark. Obviously he'll have to move it around which will lower his DPR by 1/3 for that round.
It also assumes an average enemy AC of 14 which increases by 1 every 4 levels (5,9,1317).
Added sharpshooter at 12 for normal bow, 16 for others.

[heavyfuel]

Here is what I have so far:

Bow Expert

When you make a melee attack with a bow as part of an attack action you can treat it as a finesse quarterstaff for a longbow or a d4/d6 versatile quarterstaff for a shortbow.
As an Opportunity Attack you may stab a target with an arrow. You are considered proficient with this finesse weapon and deal 1d4 piercing damage.
Once per round, when you make a ranged attack with a bow, you can fire two arrows instead of one. Neither arrow adds your dexterity modifier to its damage, but these shots can target multiple foes and their attacks are rolled separately.




Allowing you to use the bow as a melee Finesse Versatile d6/d8 or d4/d6 that deals Bludgeoning is a simpler language, also it makes #2 useless, so give something instead.

Manyshot doesn't allow for Dex mod only? What about other mods like Colossus Slayer?

[Kryx]

Allowing you to use the bow as a melee Finesse Versatile d6/d8 or d4/d6 that deals Bludgeoning is a simpler language, also it makes #2 useless, so give something instead.
Ya, I'll clear up the bow as quarterstaff language. #2 is actually an opportunity attack, which #1 is worded to not be. If you have any suggestions I could see dropping 2, but I don't think the bow itself should be used on opportunity attacks, the damage is too high for that for an archer.


Manyshot doesn't allow for Dex mod only? What about other mods like Colossus Slayer?
Correct, it drops dex (only on the split shot, not any extra attacks), but allows others like Colossus Slayer. I've included that in my math for the chart above.

[Person_Man]

I would prefer to remove requirements of using specific weapons instead of multiplying them. If a player takes a Feat that requires them to use a specific weapon, they basically lock themselves into using only that weapon and only the tactics related to that Feat in most combats, because it now becomes the default optimal tactic. In addition, if the DM does choose to provide magic weapons as treasure, the player can often be screwed (but I don't use a longsword!) or lock themselves into always using that weapon (I found a magic crossbow. I guess I should take the Crossbow Expert Feat).

For those reasons, if you're choosing to use homebrew material, I would suggest that you create a line of Feats that gave you additional non-overlapping options (as an Action/Bonus Action/Reaction, you may...) that are not weapon specific, instead of passive benefits (while using an X, you gain a +Y bonus..) that are weapon specific, which have limited synergies right now (since you can't mix most Feats together due to their weapon limitations), but will end up being broken once supplements come out.

[heavyfuel]

Ya, I'll clear up the bow as quarterstaff language. #2 is actually an opportunity attack, which #1 is worded to not be. If you have any suggestions I could see dropping 2, but I don't think the bow itself should be used on opportunity attacks, the damage is too high for that for an archer.

I understood that #1 was for attacks and #2 for OAs, but don't you think that's unnecessary?

My vote still goes to a Rapid Shot option that allows an extra arrow as a Bonus Action (full modifiers)

[Myzz]

I understood that #1 was for attacks and #2 for OAs, but don't you think that's unnecessary?

My vote still goes to a Rapid Shot option that allows an extra arrow as a Bonus Action (full modifiers)

That version of Rapid Shot is Horde Breaker (Hunter Ranger ability at L3)... but they need to be within 5ft of each other.

Moving the OA to when they first enter within 5ft with an arrow attack, thematically makes more sense to me alla Legolas...

[Easy_Lee]

Much as I agree with Person_man, we already have weapon feats for crossbows and polearms. Unless feats come out for other weapon types, xbows and polearms will continue to be the overall best weapons simply by virtue of having the most support.

[Kryx]

I would prefer to remove requirements of using specific weapons instead of multiplying them.
5e does not take this approach - see great weapon master, crossbow expert, dual wield, polearm master, etc. No edition has. Not sure there is a great option there besides entirely ripping up feats in general.



I understood that #1 was for attacks and #2 for OAs, but don't you think that's unnecessary?
Not really. Allowing #1 to OA gives the bow a lot of power. OA is ok, but not at that level imo. Maybe I'm wrong.


My vote still goes to a Rapid Shot option that allows an extra arrow as a Bonus Action (full modifiers)
As others said that exists in the form of Horde Breaker and a less powerful version of #3 (though I want to limit #3 to 5ft now).. Added the line to limit to to 5ft: "A different target must be within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon."

If you add on more shots (as a bonus action) it would simply outstrip crossbow expert.

[Myzz]

If you add on more shots (as a bonus action) it would simply outstrip crossbow expert.

Crossbow expert adds an extra attack as a bonus action so the only outstripping if you did that flatly with not restrictions on the bonus attack would be the increase dmg die. Adding the "to a creature within 5ft of the original target" brings the 2 back closer together... but why not just go Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker if thats what you want to get out of it?

main issues with Ranged Weapons =
1. Shooting while a hostile target is within 5 ft of you
2. Cover
3. Range Penalties
4. lack of Opportunity attack within threat range
5. Rate of Fire

Crossbow Expert addresses 1 and 5. It actually addresses 5 in 2 ways, gets rid of loading requirement for crossbows and gives you a bonus attack when you use a specific type of crossbow, which is clearly the most optimal if you don't have a ton of other things happening during your bonus action...

Sharpshooter addresses 2 and 3 AND gives you bonus dmg.

If you want to be Good with ranged weapons you 'should' grab either fighter or ranger just for the fighting style +2 attack is awesome. Based on that assumption... as a bow 'expert' your going to have levels in fighter or ranger! Please note that bonus directly conteracts half cover (a +2 AC bonus). SO even without Sharpshooter you 'ignore' half cover by being a Fighter or Ranger using the Archery Fighting Style.

Being a Fighter solves #5, with all the extra attacks and Action Surges, while being a Ranger addresses this issue if you go Horde Breaker.

I think any Bow Expert Feat should address 1 maybe 2 of the weaknesses, not all 5 since there already exists a feat to get past 2 and 3, and class abilities that address 2 and 5.

Unlike Person_Man I think any weapon feat in 5e should be specific to that weapon. ONLY because thats the path already taken. I think it would have been awesome if they had made feats for weapon families, but they didnt. If you make feats address groups of weapons then you need to ensure the current weapon feats are either unavailable or dont work within those groups. For instance if you add a Bow Expert Feat that covers Shortbows, Longbows, Hand Crossbows, Light Crossbows, Heavy Crossbows, and maybe Ballistae... Well now handcrossbows are still the go to since they have another feat that lets them do other cool stuff... Unless the New feat is pretty much comperable, in which case the higher dmg die bows are the go to since they outclass the lower dmg dice bows...

Making the weapon feats unique to each weapon and flavored appropriately I think should work much better. So LongBow Expert would be different than Shortbow Expert... which would be different than Crossbow Expert, all of which could use Sharpshooter...

[Kryx]

Crossbow expert adds an extra attack as a bonus action so the only outstripping if you did that flatly with not restrictions on the bonus attack would be the increase dmg die. Adding the "to a creature within 5ft of the original target" brings the 2 back closer together... but why not just go Hunter Ranger with Horde Breaker if thats what you want to get out of it?

That statement was assuming that he was suggesting a bonus action in addition to what I had, but I doubt that now.
You could do a bonus action instead, but I feel a bonus action is where TWF should be, not bows.




main issues with Ranged Weapons =
1. Shooting while a hostile target is within 5 ft of you
2. Cover
3. Range Penalties
4. lack of Opportunity attack within threat range
5. Rate of Fire

#2 & #3 are solved by sharpshooter.
#1 & #5 are solved by Crossbow Master
My Bow Master Solves #1, #3, and #5. #1 by using the flavor of attacking with the bow in melee, #3 with the arrow Opportunity Attack, and #5 with an extra attack (both without dex).

Now it is slightly limited in that #1 in my Bow Master is not ranged (no +2 to atk). And OA is even lower. #3 is a tradeoff with the bonus from Crossbow that I think works quite well.



EDIT:
I updated my math above (had longbow as d10.. lol). I'm going to change my wording to allow the bow to work on Opportunity attacks now as it needs a slight boost in comparison. I'm also going to do half dex on the split shot.
New words:


You can use your bow to make melee attacks. Treat it as a finesse weapon that does d6 bludgeoning damage (versatile d8) for a longbow or a d4 (versatile d6) for a shortbow. (works with opportunity attacks)
Once per round, when you make a ranged attack with a bow, you can fire two arrows instead of one. Both arrows add half (round down) of your dexterity modifier to damage. These shots can target multiple foes and their attacks are rolled separately. A different target must be within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.


New Graph with half dex on the split shot:
http://i.imgur.com/dShFura.png

[Theodoxus]

What happens if you remove the specific weapon types from feats and simply replace them with 'melee attack' and 'ranged attack'? (where appropriate)

[Easy_Lee]

What happens if you remove the specific weapon types from feats and simply replace them with 'melee attack' and 'ranged attack'? (where appropriate)

You end up with a lot of debate over striking people with the other end of your unarmed strike (polearm mastery) and whether or not the blowgun used for the bonus attack can be the same blowgun as the one that provoked it (crossbow expert).

That said, I would prefer that they had done something like this to begin with

[Kryx]

You end up with a lot of debate over striking people with the other end of your unarmed strike (polearm mastery) and whether or not the blowgun used for the bonus attack can be the same blowgun as the one that provoked it (crossbow expert).

That said, I would prefer that they had done something like this to begin with
In my D&D experience everyone has always specialized on a specific weapon. I don't see how you could make generic feats that work with every weapon without being mundane.

[Easy_Lee]

In my D&D experience everyone has always specialized on a specific weapon. I don't see how you could make generic feats that work with every weapon without being mundane.

I suspect that has lot to do with rhe fact that some degree of weapon specialization was basically required in 3e/3.5. All of the best weapons were exotic, meaning you needed a feat to get that specific weapon, so you would naturally invest in it to the exclusion of all else.

That said, I certainly like 5e's approach to weapon feats better. I just wish it were balanced, rather than only crossbows and poles getting a weapon feat.

[Kryx]

That said, I certainly like 5e's approach to weapon feats better. I just wish it were balanced, rather than only crossbows and poles getting a weapon feat.
5e hasn't done it differently much at all. There is some combination for some things like Sharpshooter, but in general it's the same as 3.X. They just haven't given the other weapons feats (yet).