Is it possible to make an unarmed non-monk? That wont be weak?

[Rfkannen]

So, monks are cool and all. But Sometimes you want to play a character that fights without weapons that doesn't have the whole ki thing going on. The solution, tavern master. Yet from what I hear that feat is pretty weak. So, can you make a legitimate character that fights without weapons that isnt a monk?

Bassicaly, a character that isnt just flat out weaker than others.

[Symphony]

So, monks are cool and all. But Sometimes you want to play a character that fights without weapons that doesn't have the whole ki thing going on. The solution, tavern master. Yet from what I hear that feat is pretty weak. So, can you make a legitimate character that fights without weapons that isnt a monk?

Bassicaly, a character that isnt just flat out weaker than others.

An Eldritch Knight with Alter Self could be somewhat okay. AFB, but that's something like 4*(1d6+STR) at level 20. Not great, but slightly better than 4*(1d4+STR), but you might be better off using Hex/Hunter's Mark (from Magic Initiate) for 4*(1d4+1d6+STR) or Haste for 5*(1d4+STR), but then you don't have the benefit of magical weapon-equivalent resistance/immunity bypassing.

With DM support in the form of magic items, of course, anything will work.

[Madfellow]

You could take two levels of monk and then multiclass into something else.

[Naanomi]

Grapplers of a variety of classes work

[SharkForce]

not entirely clear on why you couldn't just take a regular monk, cross out the word "ki", and replace it with something else (moxy, grit, guts, edge, adrenaline, or whatever the heck else you feel like) if you just don't like "ki".

[holygroundj]

Honestly? It's going to be pretty sub optimal. First, you'll need a feat to even add a die roll to damage, and at that point it's just 1d4. You could also go for a grappling build which would at least give you advantage, but your damage is going to be weaker.

There's nothing, as far as I know, about making your unarmed strikes hit harder outside of monk. Then there's the whole (imo idiotic) argument about whether you can even wield your fists a la dual wielding. Anyways, monks where it's at.

[Ralanr]

You could try barbarian. Your rage damage will be added to unarmed strikes. Later levels you could probably focus on grappling. In terms of viable unarmed, monk kinda takes it, so unless you do wanna home brew a new resource or just call ki something else, then straight punching ain't gonna work at higher levels.

Though if this isn't going towards a higher campaign then non monk punch could be viable.

[DM12]

It would probably be best to try and make that a secondary option if you adamant about no doing monk. If, however, you really want to make someone with that as their main combat style i would suggest a high strength rogue. (Unless sneak attack doesn't work with unarmed, i haven't looked at it thoroughly.)

[Rfkannen]

not entirely clear on why you couldn't just take a regular monk, cross out the word "ki", and replace it with something else (moxy, grit, guts, edge, adrenaline, or whatever the heck else you feel like) if you just don't like "ki".

The character I was thinking of was people like oga from beelzebub. Exept without the demonic magic.

Actualy with the demonic magic would be pretty cool to.


But anyway, the monk is a character full of finese and magical ability, I mean the raw brute, the character who just destroys people withoght the mystical stuff, a raw brute killing people with his fists. Like the iconic brawler in pathfinder vs the monk. You don't have the magic.

For example, with oga. There is a while chapter about how he doesnt have any special moves, and just punches people and calls them special moves, when they are just normal punches.

[SharkForce]

It would probably be best to try and make that a secondary option if you adamant about no doing monk. If, however, you really want to make someone with that as their main combat style i would suggest a high strength rogue. (Unless sneak attack doesn't work with unarmed, i haven't looked at it thoroughly.)

by default, unarmed combat won't work with sneak attack. there's a developer tweet somewhere that suggests they would allow monk/rogue multiclass characters to sneak attack with martial arts weapons including unarmed (since monk makes those weapons dex-based), but i don't recall it being anything official... more "this is what i would do in my game". by default, however, unarmed (and most other melee martial arts weapons) are not finesse.

[Ralanr]

The character I was thinking of was people like oga from beelzebub. Exept without the demonic magic.

Actualy with the demonic magic would be pretty cool to.


But anyway, the monk is a character full of finese and magical ability, I mean the raw brute, the character who just destroys people withoght the mystical stuff, a raw brute killing people with his fists. Like the iconic brawler in pathfinder vs the monk. You don't have the magic.

For example, with oga. There is a while chapter about how he doesnt have any special moves, and just punches people and calls them special moves, when they are just normal punches.

I have an idea! If you wanna make Oga (and if I misinterpreted you then sorry) go fiend patron, pick up the blade pact and ask your DM if you could use Unarmed damage as your pact weapon (like a gauntlet or something) that levels up in damage like a monk's martial arts.

Or barbarian brutality. But I may just like barbarians a lot.

[Psikerlord]

The character I was thinking of was people like oga from beelzebub. Exept without the demonic magic.

Actualy with the demonic magic would be pretty cool to.


But anyway, the monk is a character full of finese and magical ability, I mean the raw brute, the character who just destroys people withoght the mystical stuff, a raw brute killing people with his fists. Like the iconic brawler in pathfinder vs the monk. You don't have the magic.

For example, with oga. There is a while chapter about how he doesnt have any special moves, and just punches people and calls them special moves, when they are just normal punches.

Any fighter with 20 Str will be doing 6 damage per punch, the rough equivalent of a commoner with a sword. So that character could go around bashing commoners to death pretty well, just by punching unarmed. Add tavern brawler feat for d4+5 damage instead. 20 Str = hulking strongman to me.

[Galen]

not entirely clear on why you couldn't just take a regular monk, cross out the word "ki", and replace it with something else (moxy, grit, guts, edge, adrenaline, or whatever the heck else you feel like) if you just don't like "ki".Absolutely this. You're not a Monk, you an Unarmed Barbarian Brawlmaster. Instead of Ki, you get small boosts of Primal Rage.

[Rfkannen]

I have an idea! If you wanna make Oga (and if I misinterpreted you then sorry) go fiend patron, pick up the blade pact and ask your DM if you could use Unarmed damage as your pact weapon (like a gauntlet or something) that levels up in damage like a monk's martial arts.

Or barbarian brutality. But I may just like barbarians a lot.

that... is pretty smart. I did not think of that. Get a cestus pact blade. Good idea!
How would you stat a cestus anyway?







No but on other posts, It is just like, monks turn invisable. If I am playing a brawler, why can he turn invisable? It isnt just literaly ki, it is the whole set of mstical powers they have.

[Joe the Rat]

Unarmed attack isn't a light weapon, so you need the two-weapon feat to double-fist it. That's two feats needed just to get your unarmed up to where you'd be using a pair of clubs. If I were to try a no-monk punch-fighter, I'd see about getting something worked out with the DM. Like having your fists be light weapons, or investing in a pair of gauntlets or knuckledusters that are for all intents and purposes unthrowable light hammers.

The designers really went out of their way to protect the monk's "bare-handed fighter" niche.

[EvanescentHero]

that... is pretty smart. I did not think of that. Get a cestus pact blade. Good idea!
How would you stat a cestus anyway?

I have a player who uses clawed gauntlets as her weapons, and I just gave them the same stats as a handaxe (minus the throwing). 1d6, finesse, light. She dual-wields them. Seeing as how she would be completely able to use handaxes as a warlock, I didn't see a problem with reskinning them. That'll get you a long way!

[Stan]

I have an idea! If you wanna make Oga (and if I misinterpreted you then sorry) go fiend patron, pick up the blade pact and ask your DM if you could use Unarmed damage as your pact weapon (like a gauntlet or something) that levels up in damage like a monk's martial arts.


Good idea. As it's all just flavor text, I'd allow the pact weapon to be a mystic force that surrounds your fist to give it the damage of a warhammer (or even both fists as light hammers).

[SharkForce]

that... is pretty smart. I did not think of that. Get a cestus pact blade. Good idea!
How would you stat a cestus anyway?







No but on other posts, It is just like, monks turn invisable. If I am playing a brawler, why can he turn invisable? It isnt just literaly ki, it is the whole set of mstical powers they have.

so don't spend your ki on turning invisible. spend it on dodging, dashing, and flurrying, or stunning people. heck, if you want you can even use strength for damage and attack as far as i can tell (though your AC won't be great if you do that). only shadow monk gets invisibility as a major part of their abilities. you can even just stick with a single level of monk if it bothers you that badly. so once per short rest, you can use "adrenaline" to punch an extra 2 times (flurry), or do a berserk charge (dash as a bonus action), or shrug off an enemy's attack (reflavoured dodge as a bonus action). then put the rest of your levels elsewhere.

like i said, i'm really not seeing why just reflavouring monk (possibly only taking a few levels of it) doesn't provide everything you need. ki is a limited resource. you don't need to spend it on abilities that are clearly mystical/supernatural to be effective. that's just another option you have.

[xyianth]

I thought this was an interesting challenge, so I came up with the following:

race: human(variant)
27pt: 14(15) str 13 dex 12 con 8 int 10 wis 15(16) cha
skills: athletics
build: fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 12/bard 4
equipment: plate mail, shield
fighting styles: dueling(1), defense(6)
ASIs: tavern brawler(1), +2 str(8), +2 str(12), +2 cha(16), +2 cha(20)
paladin oath: oathbreaker, vengeance, or ancients
bard college: lore
details:

At level 1, punches do 1d4+5 at +5 to-hit and you can grapple as a bonus action. You also have second wind, heavy armor, and shield proficiency.
At level 2, you can action surge, which can let you punch->grapple->shove.
At level 3, you take expertise in athletics, boosting your ability to disarm/shove/grapple/etc... Unfortunately, sneak attack is worthless to you.
At level 4, whenever you aren't using your bonus action to grapple, you can dash, disengage, or hide. This helps your survivability.
At level 5, you gain the ability to heal yourself and others via lay on hands.
At level 6, your AC improves via the defense style and you pick up basic paladin spellcasting/smiting. This can help boost your damage when needed.
At level 7, you gain your first oath feature. I like oathbreaker the best for this overall, but vengeance is pretty good too.
At level 8, you boost your strength.
At level 9, you finally gain extra attack. You can now punch->grapple->shove without action surge, letting action surge go back to being pure nova potential.
At level 10, you gain +3 to all saves. Aura of protection is awesome.
At level 11, you gain your oath's aura. Oathbreaker adds +3 damage per hit, vengeance lets you move after OAs, and ancients gets you magic resistance.
At level 12, you boost your strength to max.
At level 13, you gain access to 3rd level paladin spells, which includes some great ones from whatever your oath.
At level 14, you gain immunity to fear.
At level 15, you gain improved divine smite adding 1d8 radiant damage to your punches.
At level 16, you boost your charisma.
At level 17, you gain 4/long rest uses of bardic inspiration(d6), a trained skill, and some useful cantrips and spells.
At level 18, you gain jack of all trades(+3 to all untrained skills, checks, and initiative) and song of rest.
At level 19, you select college of lore for cutting words and 3 more trained skills.
At level 20, you max your charisma.

This results in potentially 1d4+1d8+12 damage per punch, +17 on athletics maneuvers, and full strength paladin auras on a character with 21 AC. You also have the same number of spell slots per day as a 20th level paladin. It's probably not the most optimized character around, but it should hold its own fairly well. Any thoughts on improvements, or critiques of the build?

[Malifice]

AFB - are unarmed strikes finesse weapons?

If so, Rogue works perfectly. With expertise in Athletics, and extra feats to pick up grappler and tavern brawler.

Difference between a d4 and d6 shortsword is nothing when you factor in sneak attack.

[xyianth]

AFB - are unarmed strikes finesse weapons?

If so, Rogue works perfectly. With expertise in Athletics, and extra feats to pick up grappler and tavern brawler.

Difference between a d4 and d6 shortsword is nothing when you factor in sneak attack.

Sadly, no they are not. And worse, monk's martial arts ability doesn't make them finesse weapons either by RAW. I believe one of the designers tweeted that he would allow a monk's fists to work with sneak attack anyway, but I think that was more of a 'I'd rule it this way' vs 'The intent was' situation.

[Sindeloke]

How about 1 level of monk, 2 levels of fighter, and then go barbarian the rest of the way? Monk 1 nets you 2d4+2x modifier per round when you've got a free bonus action, the ability to go full dex if you want, and doesn't give you any ki or any kind of supernatural weirdness. Fighter 2 gives you Action Surge, some really minimal healing, martial ranged weapons and medium armor if you want it. Take dueling style and convince your DM that your fist is a natural one-handed weapon wielded without any other weapons; now you're doing 2d4+4+2x modifier per round, and 3d4+6+3x once per short rest. If your DM doesn't go for that, he's a lame jerk, it's not exactly overpowered, but just go defense style instead.

Barbarian then lets you rage, giving you yet another +2 per hit which will scale higher as you increase in levels. Brutal critical (and crits in general) will be basically useless to you, but you should still largely keep up with the monk's non-crit damage through your flat bonuses and Action Surge, and you'll be super tanky, especially since you can dump Strength, focus Dex, and use a shield if you want. Grab Athletics, and once you get Extra Attack, take full advantage of your advantage on Strength checks while raging to inflict prones left and right while still having an attack free to trigger your bonus attack. Or spend the feat you didn't spend on Tavern Brawler on Grappler instead (it's equally terrible, but thematic).

For maximum survivability, you can take your first level in barbarian and get the extra 4 hp, and just hit people with a stick for the five minutes it'll take to level up and get Martial Arts. Con's probably a better proficient save for you than Dex anyway, given Danger Sense.