Swordsage with Monk's Belt

[Mr.Kraken]

Hello, everyone. Sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it anywhere. My question is regarding... yes, Swordsage/Monk combinations. I'm not planning to build a monksage, but I was wondering.. what happens when an unarmed swordsage wears a monk's belt?

I understand that the unarmed damage will improve like a monk's would, but what about the AC bonus? Most people tend to treat both class features as the same "named game element", but the belt's full effect seems to be exclusive to monks, leading me to use the "if the character's not a monk" option. Does that mean that the swordsage would be getting his Wisdom bonus (again) +1 ? I'm inclined to that conclusion because the character's getting the bonuses from different named elements, one from a class feature, the other from an item.

Or am I wrong and the character would only get a +1 to AC? Or nothing at all? Really guys, I'm confused. Your help is deeply appreciated.

[OracleofWuffing]

The Monk's AC Bonus (that's granted by the Monk's Belt) works when you are unarmored. The Swordsage's AC Bonus requires you to wear Light Armor. It is difficult to have both of those situations at the same time, so no, you don't double-dip your Wisdom bonus.

That said, this is one of the known "silly" issues, so DMs have ruled different ways. At best, you'd just be getting the +1, depending on whether or not the Bonus AC is ruled to also rely on the unarmored bit required by the Monk's AC bonus.

[Mr.Kraken]

But I'm referring specifically to the Monk's Belt. You don't need to be unarmored to have the item's effect, do you?

[torrasque666]

But I'm referring specifically to the Monk's Belt. You don't need to be unarmored to have the item's effect, do you?
Well, lets see.

This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.


AC Bonus (Ex)When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).


These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Given that the ac bonus from the belt explicitly calls out that it functions like the monk's ac bonus, and the monk's bonus says it doesn't work in certain situations, then the monk's belt AC bonus doesn't work in those same situation.

[Mr.Kraken]

I see. Now, if your character is an unarmed swordsage, you have tweaked the swordsage's AC bonus so you can have it while unarmored and he wears a monk's belt, what would happen then?

[torrasque666]

I see. Now, if your character is an unarmed swordsage, you have tweaked the swordsage's AC bonus so you can have it while unarmored and he wears a monk's belt, what would happen then?
The entire unarmed swordsage variation is not a fleshed out variant class like Battle Sorcerer or Cloistered Cleric. It is only an idea for an adaptation. Technically, its not exactly RAW and using it at all requires DM approval above and beyond the typical approval(on the same level as using homebrew, because that's essentially what it is). So essentially it boils down to "Ask your DM."

[Troacctid]

I see. Now, if your character is an unarmed swordsage, you have tweaked the swordsage's AC bonus so you can have it while unarmored and he wears a monk's belt, what would happen then?

Then most likely you would have it not stack, as that's how other Wis-to-AC class features tend to work, e.g. Ninja.

[Curmudgeon]

The rules on stacking define a source as a particular named ability. Here you've got two instances of an ability named AC Bonus, because the Monk's Belt works exactly like that named class ability. So, being from the same named source, they wouldn't stack even if they applied to the same level of armor use.

[animewatcha]

If you were to change the monk's ac bonus to be sourced from a different stat ( like Kung Fu Genius ), then the belt wouldn't have the wis confliction thing. Now, let's say you were a moon-warded ranger ( dragon mag in which give up 1st style feat for Wis to AC like monk, except can wear light armor ). You wear monk's belt while unarmored, you get wis to ac x 2. If you wanted to keep your light armor AND get both bonuses, you would need to get the monk's belt tuned to a skarn monk's 5th sub level ( messes with the ac, but you keep wisdom in any armor due to lack of errata ). Unfortunately, this is a custom item ( DM can shot down ) and would jack up the price immensely due to supply/demand.

[Mr.Kraken]

The rules on stacking define a source as a particular named ability. Here you've got two instances of an ability named AC Bonus, because the Monk's Belt works exactly like that named class ability. So, being from the same named source, they wouldn't stack even if they applied to the same level of armor use.

Wasn't it named game element? I think that's how it goes in the official errata... On one hand you have a class feature named AC Bonus, on the other hand you have an item named Monk's Belt that mimics the class feature named AC Bonus. It's not the real deal, and they are two different named game elements.


If you were to change the monk's ac bonus to be sourced from a different stat ( like Kung Fu Genius ), then the belt wouldn't have the wis confliction thing.

The fact that both bonuses are equal to the wisdom modifier is not what's conflicting in this situation, it's the fact that they have the same type (untyped) and (arguably) come from the same named game element. You can be a battle dancer/mystic wanderer and you'll get your Cha modifier to AC twice, for example (different types and different names).

[Douglas]

Wasn't it named game element? I think that's how it goes in the official errata... On one hand you have a class feature named AC Bonus, on the other hand you have an item named Monk's Belt that mimics the class feature named AC Bonus. It's not the real deal, and they are two different named game elements.
The belt is duplicating the class feature - including what it does and does not stack with.

[Mr.Kraken]

Let me try to better explain myself.


Untyped Bonus: Some bonuses have no type (“a +2 bonus,” for instance). Most of these bonuses are situational and combine with other bonuses, including other untyped bonuses. However, untyped bonuses from the same named game element (such as a power or a feat) are not cumulative; only the highest applies, unless otherwise noted.

Untyped bonuses do stack with each other if they do not hail from the same named game element, for example, the same class feature, the same feat, the same power, etc. If they come from different named game elements they freely stack with each other.

Note: Even tough I don't believe the swordsage's AC bonus to be the same class feature as the monk's AC bonus, they have the same name, so I'm willing to interpret them as not stacking. That would be the same for a swordsage/battle dancer.

Let's see the case of a multiclassed unarmed and (via houserule) unarmored swordsage/monk. He has:

+ Wis to AC provided by a game element named AC Bonus, a swordsage class feature.
+ Wis+1~5 to AC provided by a game element named AC Bonus, a monk class feature.

Since both bonuses to AC come from two game elements with the same name, they do not stack. That would be the same case with a multiclassed character with two classes that provide Divine Grace - no stacking.

Now, onto the unarmed/unarmored swordsage with a monk's belt:

+ Wis to AC provided by the game element named AC Bonus, a swordsage class feature.
+ Wis+1 to AC provided by a game element named Monk's Belt, an item.

They may look the same at first, but they actually come from two different named game elements. And beyond that, this is what's said in the description of the Monk's Belt:


If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

The item does not provide the monk's AC bonus class feature. The character who wears the belt gains the equivalent to a 5th level monk's AC bonus and unarmed damage, but it is not said that the character explicitly receives the class feature - it just functions the same. It's relatively the same, for example, with a ring of evasion:


This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion.

"As if" leads me to think that the character doesn't really have Evasion, but a simulation of it. If a character wears a ring of evasion and later gets Evasion as a class feature, the wording here leads me to think that he would not get Improved Evasion, because he didn't have the unimproved version to begin with - only an item-dependant copy of the original.

Same thing with the Monk's Belt. It is a minor copy of a class feature but not the class feature itself, which means that they are not the same game element, and if you take into consideration that the bonus hails from an item, not the same named game element.

My argument is done, but I'm stretching it a bit from here on. You could also make the point that the swordsage, the ninja, the monk and the battle dancer's AC bonus are not the same game element. All of them have minor differences from each other.



Monk
Must be unarmored and unencumbered; +1 every 5 levels


Swordsage
Must wear light armor, be unencumbered, not use shield, no +1 every 5 levels


Ninja
Like Monk's; specifically state that it doesn't stack with Monk's AC bonus


Battle Dancer
Like Monk's, except the bonus is Cha based



The only two class features from the mentioned above that feel exactly the same are the monk and the ninja's. Note that the Ninja's class feature specifically mention that it doesn't stack with the Monk's.

[Curmudgeon]

If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
The item does not provide the monk's AC bonus class feature.
It provides something called "AC bonus", which is an identically-named game element. The name defines the source, and here we've got two instances of a bonus with matching names. The stacking rules only refer to "the same source", not "the same type of source". So AC bonus from a class feature and AC bonus from a magic item are still two instances of the same named source.

[Troacctid]

It provides something called "AC bonus", which is an identically-named game element. The name defines the source, and here we've got two instances of a bonus with matching names. The stacking rules only refer to "the same source", not "the same type of source". So AC bonus from a class feature and AC bonus from a magic item are still two instances of the same named source.

That's obviously a description, not a name. I mean, come on, there's an argument that they don't stack, but you're just being silly. :smallsigh:

[emeraldstreak]

Listen, drop that silly armor and go unarmored with Greater Luminous Armor, high natural armor alter self+Scintillating Scales and stuff. There are plenty of ways to optimize AC.


The one reason to play unarmed swordsage or monk is to optimize optimize optimize unarmed damage until you get in the thousands. That's it.

[Mr.Kraken]

That's obviously a description, not a name. I mean, come on, there's an argument that they don't stack, but you're just being silly. :smallsigh:

Exactly, come on... by that standard any item-granted bonus to AC wouldn't stack with the class feature.


Listen, drop that silly armor and go unarmored with Greater Luminous Armor, high natural armor alter self+Scintillating Scales and stuff. There are plenty of ways to optimize AC.

The one reason to play unarmed swordsage or monk is to optimize optimize optimize unarmed damage until you get in the thousands. That's it.

I'd like not to rely on spellcasting too much. The characer I'm building is not going to be a spellcaster of any sort, so I'm looking for ways to get a high AC without begging another character for help. I'll go that way if the need arises, but I'd like not to depend on others too much.

[Troacctid]

Exactly, come on... by that standard any item-granted bonus to AC wouldn't stack with the class feature.

Well, probably not, since the bonuses are going to be of different types most of the time, but it does result in the rather ridiculous conclusion that many items are named "Item", many feats are named "Feat", many spells are named "Spell", and so on.

The word "this" doesn't work that way.

[Curmudgeon]

That's obviously a description, not a name.
It's a descriptive name. Or are you saying that Monk AC Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#aCBonus) isn't a class feature because the name is descriptive?

[animewatcha]

Interesting that ninja gets thrown around a bit without taking note of the parenthesises (sp ? ) in their of reasoning of Wis to AC twice. Meaning that with the usage of different game element / source to change the main confliction stated there ( we can all agree on the level thing ). Namely the usage of game element / source of something like kung fu genius feat changing the source stat ( with feat / game element / source being the untyped source of why ) allowing for stackage between monk and ninja.

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting that ninja gets thrown around a bit without taking note of the parenthesises (sp ? ) in their of reasoning of Wis to AC twice.
I'm not sure what you're referring to. The only reasoning I'm aware of involving Ninja and AC Bonus is this, from the D&D FAQ:
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once. You'll note three things here:

There aren't any parentheses.
There is no mention of WIS.
The reasoning about why they don't stack is all about the name of the ability.

[Mr.Kraken]

The reasoning about why they don't stack is all about the name of the ability.

And my point is the bonus comes from an item named Monk's Belt, that gives a bonus to AC that functions like the class feature, but is not the class feature in itself.

Also, where does that red info comes from?

[Curmudgeon]

And my point is the bonus comes from an item named Monk's Belt, that gives a bonus to AC that functions like the class feature, but is not the class feature in itself.
That argument is just like saying the bonus instead comes from Monk or Ninja or Swordsage, when it comes from the ability named AC Bonus. You always use the most direct named source.

Also, where does that red info comes from?
Cut from Main35FAQv06302008.pdf, and reproduced the original as nearly as I could. Red text means the most recent updates to the FAQ.

[Platymus Pus]

It explicitly adds the wisdom boost if you are unarmored if you already didn't have that named boost since it works JUST like the monk's AC.
It would be. Wis+1 = bonus AC
Since it works like the monk's AC bonus this also applies to CMD and various other things.

[Shining Wrath]

Let me try to better explain myself.



Untyped bonuses do stack with each other if they do not hail from the same named game element, for example, the same class feature, the same feat, the same power, etc. If they come from different named game elements they freely stack with each other.

Note: Even tough I don't believe the swordsage's AC bonus to be the same class feature as the monk's AC bonus, they have the same name, so I'm willing to interpret them as not stacking. That would be the same for a swordsage/battle dancer.

Let's see the case of a multiclassed unarmed and (via houserule) unarmored swordsage/monk. He has:

+ Wis to AC provided by a game element named AC Bonus, a swordsage class feature.
+ Wis+1~5 to AC provided by a game element named AC Bonus, a monk class feature.

Since both bonuses to AC come from two game elements with the same name, they do not stack. That would be the same case with a multiclassed character with two classes that provide Divine Grace - no stacking.

Now, onto the unarmed/unarmored swordsage with a monk's belt:

+ Wis to AC provided by the game element named AC Bonus, a swordsage class feature.
+ Wis+1 to AC provided by a game element named Monk's Belt, an item.

They may look the same at first, but they actually come from two different named game elements. And beyond that, this is what's said in the description of the Monk's Belt:



The item does not provide the monk's AC bonus class feature. The character who wears the belt gains the equivalent to a 5th level monk's AC bonus and unarmed damage, but it is not said that the character explicitly receives the class feature - it just functions the same. It's relatively the same, for example, with a ring of evasion:



"As if" leads me to think that the character doesn't really have Evasion, but a simulation of it. If a character wears a ring of evasion and later gets Evasion as a class feature, the wording here leads me to think that he would not get Improved Evasion, because he didn't have the unimproved version to begin with - only an item-dependant copy of the original.

Same thing with the Monk's Belt. It is a minor copy of a class feature but not the class feature itself, which means that they are not the same game element, and if you take into consideration that the bonus hails from an item, not the same named game element.

My argument is done, but I'm stretching it a bit from here on. You could also make the point that the swordsage, the ninja, the monk and the battle dancer's AC bonus are not the same game element. All of them have minor differences from each other.



Monk
Must be unarmored and unencumbered; +1 every 5 levels


Swordsage
Must wear light armor, be unencumbered, not use shield, no +1 every 5 levels


Ninja
Like Monk's; specifically state that it doesn't stack with Monk's AC bonus


Battle Dancer
Like Monk's, except the bonus is Cha based



The only two class features from the mentioned above that feel exactly the same are the monk and the ninja's. Note that the Ninja's class feature specifically mention that it doesn't stack with the Monk's.

There is no requirement that a swordsage wear light armor. They are capable of doing so, but not required to do so.

[Feint's End]

Are you limited to 3.5 only? Because in Pathfinder you could dib Soulknife for 2 levels and get wisdom as a dodge bonus while fighting defensively. It isn't as good as the ac bonus from monk of course but it's likely to fly and it definitely stacks.

[Deophaun]

There is no requirement that a swordsage wear light armor. They are capable of doing so, but not required to do so.
They just lose their AC Bonus if they don't.

[Mr.Kraken]

There is no requirement that a swordsage wear light armor. They are capable of doing so, but not required to do so.

Yes, there is:

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

Which is silly, I think. It's as if the class was intended to be specialized on using light armor, which it was not. If you add the unarmed swordsage variant, you lose your light armor proficiency - which means you lose your AC Bonus, basically.


That argument is just like saying the bonus instead comes from Monk or Ninja or Swordsage, when it comes from the ability named AC Bonus. You always use the most direct named source.

Well, after reading through that FAQ I've stumbled upon this:


The monk’s belt says it grants the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel monk. What does that mean?
When the monk’s belt refers to the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel monk, it is referring to the monk ability called AC bonus. It grants +1 bonus to AC and adds your Wisdom modifier to your Armor Class if you are not wearing armor and are not encumbered.

So yes, you're correct. Giants win, as usual. It's unfortunate, though. Now I have to seek other ways in 3.5 to improve my AC.

[Eloel]

One addendum to what has been being discussed is; since one of them comes from a feature called AC Bonus, and the other comes from an item called Monk's Belt, Monk's AC bonus and Monk's Belt's AC bonus should stack, by the logic of "they're differently named".

Though, really? REALLY?

[Mr.Kraken]

One addendum to what has been being discussed is; since one of them comes from a feature called AC Bonus, and the other comes from an item called Monk's Belt, Monk's AC bonus and Monk's Belt's AC bonus should stack, by the logic of "they're differently named".

Though, really? REALLY?

They wouldn't because the item expressly states what effects a monk would receive from it.


The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

There's no added bonus to be stacked.

[Curmudgeon]

One addendum to what has been being discussed is; since one of them comes from a feature called AC Bonus, and the other comes from an item called Monk's Belt, Monk's AC bonus and Monk's Belt's AC bonus should stack, by the logic of "they're differently named".
No, they're both from AC Bonus. One is AC Bonus from Ninja or Swordsage (a class), and the other is AC Bonus from Monk's Belt (an item). Your argument is akin to saying that an apple from a tree and similar product from a produce vendor are different, because apple and produce vendor are different names.

[Eloel]

No, they're both from AC Bonus. One is AC Bonus from Ninja or Swordsage (a class), and the other is AC Bonus from Monk's Belt (an item). Your argument is akin to saying that an apple from a tree and similar product from a produce vendor are different, because apple and produce vendor are different names.

We are saying the same thing, but thanks for the educational response.

[animewatcha]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The only reasoning I'm aware of involving Ninja and AC Bonus is this, from the D&D FAQ: You'll note three things here:
[/LIST]

This is what I get from posting late at night with little sleep ( yay for 2 jobs ). I meant the explanation in ( ) in the ninja class description itself. Complete adventurer was it?

[Curmudgeon]

This is what I get from posting late at night with little sleep ( yay for 2 jobs ). I meant the explanation in ( ) in the ninja class description itself. Complete adventurer was it?
That's not so much an explanation as a disclaimer that they're not overriding the stacking rule.