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Tyas
2007-04-08, 02:10 AM
I've been running a game for a short while that started with 2 players, so we went gestalt, as bent out of shape as that can get. They are pretty sane: A thf/sor and clr/rng. Anyway, we've added a third player and he's very.... incomplex. He doesn't like spellcasters, or skill chars. He usually plays a fighter and might do a dip here or there for flavor/special abilities/qualification for a Prc, but his characters are generally very straight forward sheets that anyone could sit down at and use effectively with 5 minutes study.

And he doesn't really want any other class to gestalt with his fighter. We spent about an hour going through the options tonight, and he's just not interested in anything, even the ones that would be pretty straightforwardly boring or ones that wouldn't add much (such as fgt/mnk or fgt/barb)

I want him to take something, and one of the other players (after he left) suggested we just let him build a gestalt fighter/fighter...

I don't really LIKE the idea, but I also don't see it as woefully overpowered. Especially as we don't use much in the way of splat books (We have access to most of them through another bunch of players, but I reserve veto rights on anything, even if it was added to the character several levels ago and just became a problem. So we don't use em for the most part.)

What do yall think? I mean, Cleric/cleric or wizard/wizard or similar would be overly powerful I'd think, but if he's not pulling feats from every junk splatbook ever written I don't see how having double bonus feats is gonna be that bad. Especially as knowing him he will throw half the extras into toughness (he likes having lots of hitpoints....)

Zincorium
2007-04-08, 02:26 AM
Well, as far as the 22 bonus feat thing goes, I don't see a whole lot of reason to disallow it, since the character has just about nothing else and most of the feats will be spent on toughness.

The problem is the guy doesn't seem to really want to play the game style that you have. I don't think this is going to work out all that well, but best of luck to you.

JaronK
2007-04-08, 02:30 AM
Technically, you only get 11 bonus feats, as identical class features don't stack in Gestalt. If his other side were Psionic Warrior though, at least he would get another 8 (I think) bonus feats, which could include useful psionic feats like Up The Walls. He could just ignore all the casting.

Swashbuckler would be a useful addition to the character, if he's willing. Most abilities are passive and useful. Monk would also help... he can just wear armour, and get good saves and unarmed damage out of the deal, plus 3 bonus feats.

Otherwise, it sounds like he just doesn't want to do it. As a pure fighter with no gestalt in a gestalt game, he'll be pretty darn pathetically weak by comparison, but you could give him a few free templates or something to make up for it. Half Iron Golem, for example, would at least make him able to contribute a bit more and not feel useless. So would Celestial.

JaronK

Jasdoif
2007-04-08, 02:48 AM
If you're seriously considering making him double fighter and giving him double fighter feats, take a look at the generic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) class instead. At least then he can get another good save, and has options besides just getting a ton of feats.


I would suggest taking a look at other options, though. There's a ton of class variants (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm) out there, and many new base classes in books. There's also the option of playing a non-standard race and "multiclassing" racial hit dice and level adjustment with the fighter levels, but that one's dependent on starting at a high enough level to fit it all in.

technomancer
2007-04-08, 03:36 AM
I second the psychic warrior approach (but, then, that's my favorite fighter ghestalt). Alternatly, He could just ignore most of the monk kung-fu stuff, and just get the better saves, evasion and spell resistance.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-08, 04:17 AM
Slap him upside the head and say "get in the game". A fighter with 2 gestalt full casters is gonna have a rough time.

LordLocke
2007-04-08, 05:46 AM
Try to push him towards Fighter/Rogue. Basically, he can treat it as a fighter with another good save, Evasion, and the ability to do some absurd damage on a flanking Full Attack. Fighters can do well with the massive amount of Rogue skill points dumped into useful fighter skills, too. It's probably the closest any Gestalt combo can probably come to feeling like a mono-Fighter- he doesn't have to start dumping points into Disable Device or anything, but Fighters tend to be exponentially more useful with good Spot, Listen, and Climb checks, not to mention a UMD Fighter can probably close the gap between Casters and himself better then a Fighter/Fighter.

Latronis
2007-04-08, 06:49 AM
If he's lawful you could suggest Knight, even if he ignores the challenge ability he gets a d12 for hp and a good will save aswell as eventual removal of speed penalty for wearing medium and heavy armour. and some other tank-y abilities.

Turcano
2007-04-08, 01:41 PM
Try to push him towards Fighter/Rogue. Basically, he can treat it as a fighter with another good save, Evasion, and the ability to do some absurd damage on a flanking Full Attack. Fighters can do well with the massive amount of Rogue skill points dumped into useful fighter skills, too. It's probably the closest any Gestalt combo can probably come to feeling like a mono-Fighter- he doesn't have to start dumping points into Disable Device or anything, but Fighters tend to be exponentially more useful with good Spot, Listen, and Climb checks, not to mention a UMD Fighter can probably close the gap between Casters and himself better then a Fighter/Fighter.

I second that. There are few classes that wouldn't see some improvement by adding fighter or rogue to the other side; your player would basically be a fighter, but with sneak attack.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-08, 04:24 PM
fighter/soulknife works well.
failing that just homebrew him some bonuses. maybe all good saves, 4 skill pts per level, d12 hd (or roll d10 as normal and make it 5hps minimum regardless of roll)
but i don't think he is going to fit in well from the sounds of things

Tyas
2007-04-08, 05:07 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Having slept on it, I think I'm gonna make him take /thf. The only reason I went gestalt in the first place was we only had 2 ppl. (I hate gestalt personally, but the game would have been somewhat difficult to run with a thief and ranger only)

It's just a flavor thing really... he likes playing the big, heavy armored fighter. It's what he always plays more or less. He doesn't like fiddling with spells or lots of skills or all that crap. (he's not very bright, for one thing... good solid player though.)

My main idea had really been monk. He'd get some offense when they get locked in jail or whatever, good saves, and a (very few) special skills (He'd be wearing armor most of the time). But /thief will give him mainly more skill points and some wicked Damage when flanking... and evasion, evasion is always good.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 05:48 PM
Technically, you only get 11 bonus feats, as identical class features don't stack in Gestalt. If his other side were Psionic Warrior though, at least he would get another 8 (I think) bonus feats, which could include useful psionic feats like Up The Walls. He could just ignore all the casting.

Swashbuckler would be a useful addition to the character, if he's willing. Most abilities are passive and useful. Monk would also help... he can just wear armour, and get good saves and unarmed damage out of the deal, plus 3 bonus feats.

Otherwise, it sounds like he just doesn't want to do it. As a pure fighter with no gestalt in a gestalt game, he'll be pretty darn pathetically weak by comparison, but you could give him a few free templates or something to make up for it. Half Iron Golem, for example, would at least make him able to contribute a bit more and not feel useless. So would Celestial.

JaronK

That wasn't the question.
The question was "would this house rule be ok?"

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 05:51 PM
Evasion only works in light armor, so to go moderately armored, he's going to need mithral medium armor to keep it.

JaronK
2007-04-08, 05:53 PM
That wasn't the question.
The question was "would this house rule be ok?"

The house rule in question was "should we let him be a Fighter//Fighter?" I was simply pointing out that it doesn't work... obviously, they'd need an additional house rule to make it work.

Anyway, I honestly think this character will be difficult to fit into the campaign. He simply isn't interested in doing what's necessary to keep up with the other two players, and as a result will likely end up annoyed at his inability to contribute.

JaronK

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 06:01 PM
The house rule in question was "should we let him be a Fighter//Fighter?" I was simply pointing out that it doesn't work... obviously, they'd need an additional house rule to make it work.

Anyway, I honestly think this character will be difficult to fit into the campaign. He simply isn't interested in doing what's necessary to keep up with the other two players, and as a result will likely end up annoyed at his inability to contribute.

JaronK

I thought the "letting fighter//fighter work" was implicit in the question. But yeah, fighter//fighter wouldn't give those feats. IF it did, would it upset balance?
No.
Even giving a fighter a feat at every level wouldn't be that much of a change in a non-gestalt game, once you made it to around level 7, when mobility becomes an issue, and the wizard, cleric and druid get access to great spells and wildshape.

Even if he's an ineffective tank, he may soak up some damage, depending on what sort of creatures/battles the DM is throwing at them.

Ramza00
2007-04-08, 07:22 PM
I know this isn't the flavor he wants. And I don't know if you have the books, but incarnate/fighter would be a good mix. He can boost his damage, and he can learn a few mobility options, and most of all it is simple.

Also just fighter/sorcerer would work good, he doesn't have to become all magefesty, just pick spells that would aid him as a fighter which he casts at the beginning of the day and then forget about it, such as enlarge person, greater magic weapon, greater mighty wallop, etc. He can pretend he is a pure fighter and it won't add any real paperwork. Arcane spell failure only works when you cast the spells, thus you can take off your armor buff, than be fine.

Or you can just do the fighter/psychic warrior route.

Tyas
2007-04-08, 07:25 PM
Evasion only works in light armor, so to go moderately armored, he's going to need mithral medium armor to keep it.

ah true. Ok, he still gets skillpoints and sneak attack. (We'd already put together the 4th level fighter side, looks like he wants to do the full plate w/ sword & board style this time.. which is a change, he's been more of a dual wield/mobility type the last couple of characters I knew he ran)

Why do I keep saying thief (I know why, I have first edition on the brain still)

To others: yeah I meant for him to get the double bonus feats as if he was taking fighter as two different classes.

He should be ok, I'm pretty good at playing to my player's strengths well enough that they don't feel completely left out of the action.

It may be a moot point. Two other people are talking of wanting to join us, and while I'll do gestalt for a small party, if I have 4-5 players we are not doing gestalts.

<cut rant>

On second thought no. We're staying at 3 ppl maximum. (reasons are in rant that doesn't belong here)

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Flawless
2007-04-08, 09:13 PM
Maybe a fighter/warblade or a fighter/crusader? If you play with martial adepts, that is.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-09, 12:20 AM
Here's a different approach. What about Ftr//Monstrous Progression?

Latronis
2007-04-09, 03:38 AM
ah true. Ok, he still gets skillpoints and sneak attack. (We'd already put together the 4th level fighter side, looks like he wants to do the full plate w/ sword & board style this time.. which is a change, he's been more of a dual wield/mobility type the last couple of characters I knew he ran)

Fighter\\Knight Fits even better this way

Fullplate with no speed penalty (eventually) Good fort and will saves, d12 HD shield abilities, fighter feats, knight feats. It fits what he wants and dont have tochange things to let him take fighterx2

Noneoyabizzness
2007-04-09, 03:58 PM
just remember, there are no silly gestalt questions, just silly gestalt combinations

like jester/deathmaster, or battle dancer/commoner

Fax Celestis
2007-04-09, 04:05 PM
just remember, there are no silly gestalt questions, just silly gestalt combinations

like jester/deathmaster, or battle dancer/commoner

Or Bard/Factotum. "I'm mediocre at everything...twice!"

Ramza00
2007-04-09, 04:09 PM
If the bard can figure out a way to get full bab, a bard/factotum would make a good archer with manyshot and the factotum to get an extra standard action for 3 inspiration points.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-09, 04:22 PM
Let's just turn the dial all the way to "suck," shall we? The most ridiculous gestalt would be Samurai//Warmage.

LeeMon
2007-04-09, 05:46 PM
One of my players is a Fighter//Rogue variant that trades sneak attack for fighter bonus feats.

At that point, you have full BAB, 8 skillpoints per level, two fighter bonus feats at first level and one every level thereafter. You also gain the evasion, uncanny dodge, and other Rogue defensive abilities. (He's not using Evasion because he's in plate.)

You mentioned he doesn't want to mess with skillpoints... that's fine. Just max Balance, Climb, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Swim, and one more (Ride/Speak Language/Survival/Tumble/UMD/etc.) He can use the skill points to be very good at the checks he'll be making anyway. :)

Jothki
2007-04-09, 07:06 PM
How would a fighter/marshal work? It seems like it wouldn't be too hard for him to play since the auras can be fairly passive and his allies can easily prompt him to switch auras or grant them move actions if they need it, though it might be require splitting up his stats a bit much.

h2doh
2007-04-10, 10:45 AM
try offering binder from tome of magic or any of the incarnum classes. they all up his combat potential but allow him the flexibility to branch out to other rolls when he feels that he is not very useful. plus he gets to choose what role he can do each day, which will allow him to get more comfortable with different roles than the party tank.