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Palegreenpants
2015-02-27, 01:40 PM
Hey peeps,

I've been building a variant system for healing and injury. It's still based on HP, but incorporates elements of lingering wounds and adrenaline. Now, my players have been pretty nonconstructive when it comes to trying this stuff (they're sort of softcore-Munchkins/casuals/Nintendo fans,) so I thought I'd get the Playground's opinion on my work. Before I present the system, I must give a disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, this system is meant to make the game harder. It's meant to instill the game's combat with lingering consequences, encouraging greater utilization of tactics. Also, walls of (well edited) text are approaching.

To begin, here's the base of the system. It's composed of three mechanics, the most important of which is called Vitality (warning, long spoilers are long.)
Bleeding Out. If a creature is reduced to 0 Hit Points or Vitality, they cannot gain Vitality or HP until they have been stabilized. A creature may be stabilized by the following actions. The use of a healer's kit, a casting of, Greater restoration, Heal, Lesser restoration, Mass heal, Regeneration, or Spare the dying. Also, the administration of a healing potion.
Slow healing. Characters regain no Hit Points at the end of a long rest. Instead, characters may expend Hit Dice at the end of a long rest to regain HP, just as they would in a short rest. Characters regain HD at the end of the long rest, as normal. Characters may immediately expend the HD that they receive at the end of a rest in exchange for HP.
Vitality and Hit Points. A creature's Hit Points (HP) represent its natural ability to endure hardship and resist death. Hit Points can only be regained via natural means, such as spending Hit Dice during a rest.
All healing spells, potions, and actions bestow Vitality, instead of Hit Points (unless otherwise noted.) Vitality points are essentially artificial Hit Points. They represent an added will to live, or a magically bestowed degree of pain resistance. Vitality does not represent the healing of physical wounds, but a bolstering of the mind, and thus the body. For example, if a Cleric casts Cure wounds to bestow a creature with Vitality, they are providing the creature not with physical healing, but with magic-induced strength; the will to continue fighting and ignore further pain.
A creature may have a maximal quantity of Vitality equal to the number of HP that they have lost. For instance, if a Fighter has 50 HP maximum, takes 10 HP worth of damage, and is then healed for 12 Vitality points, the Fighter gains 10 Vitality.
If a character has Vitality remaining at the end of an encounter, his or her Vitality points drop to zero after a "cooldown" period of minutes equal to his or her Constitution score. This cooldown is reset if the character enters combat, or receives more Vitality. If a character has 0 Hit Points remaining at the end of an encounter, but has Vitality remaining, they fall unconscious and are stable when their Vitality drops to zero.

Secondly, the Wounds and Fractures system:
Some weapons of exceptional weight and damaging prowess have a chance to inflict especially severe injuries. A creature that receives such a wound or fracture must have it tended and bandaged within one hour of receiving the injury, or else risk deadly infection or irreversible damage. Tending to such an injury requires one use of a medicine kit and a successful DC 15 Medicine (Wisdom) check. If a weapon has the possibility of dealing one injury type or another (e.g., lacerating/crushing,) randomly determine which one property takes effect. If a weapon possesses two wound effects, such as the two-handed sword, apply both effects. If a weapon possesses both the Crippling and the Crushing property, roll once on a d4, and apply both corresponding injuries.
Crushing. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the creature suffers a fracture. The effect and location of the fracture is determined by rolling a d4 on the Fracture table. The fracture heals after a period of time equal to 4d4 times 5, minus the target's constitution score (minimum of one day.)
Crippling. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the creature suffers a wound. The effect and location of the wound is determined by rolling a d4 on the Wounds table. If the creature was reduced to 0HP, they suffer a failed death saving throw. The wound heals after a period of days equal to 3d4 times 5, minus the target's constitution score (minimum of one day.)
Lacerating. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the target receives a bleeding injury. They suffer half the attack's damage at the start of their turn for each round thereafter, and a level of exhaustion on every third round after they begin bleeding. This bleed effect ignores damage resistance. The bleeding effect may be ceased with a medicine check and one use of a medicine kit. The check's DC is equal to half the damage for which the target is bleeding.


Wounds, for the crippling property:
1. Leg One of your legs is crippled by a grievous wound. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound. In addition, your speed is reduced by 5 feet, and you must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw after using the Dash action. If you fail the save, you fall prone.

2. Arm One of your arms is crippled by a grievous wound. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound.. In addition, you have disadvantage on weapon attack rolls made with your crippled arm. This penalty applies to two-handed weapons. You cannot wear a shield on your crippled arm.

3. Head One of your eyes is scratched or swollen shut, and your head is severely bruised. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound.. In addition, you have disadvantage on ranged attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

4. Torso You receive a crippling, painful wound to the torso, like a gash across the ribs, or a collapsed lung. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound. Additionally, Whenever you attempt an action in combat, you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, you loose your action and cannot take reactions until the start of your next turn.

Fractures, for the crushing property.
Fractures
1. Leg You suffer a fractured foot or leg.Your speed is reduced by half, and you have disadvantage on all acrobatics and athletics checks that involve the use of your legs. At the end of a Dash action, you fall prone.

2. Arm You suffer a fractured arm or hand. You are unable to wield a weapon or shield with your wounded arm. You have disadvantage on all acrobatics and athletics checks that involve the use of your arm.

3. Head You receive a concussion or cracked skull. When you are hit by a melee attack, you must succeed at a Constitution save of DC 15 or be stunned for one round.

4. Torso You receive a broken collarbone, rib, or pelvis. You are vulnerable to all slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage.

Easy_Lee
2015-02-27, 01:47 PM
Rules this long and complex, especially when applied to combat, often make a game tedious and un-fun. I would consider shortening and simplifying them.

Mr.Moron
2015-02-27, 01:49 PM
Rules this long and complex, especially when applied to combat, often make a game tedious and un-fun. I would consider shortening and simplifying them.


I usually disagree with just about every word this guy puts on the forum, but I've got to echo this. It's too fiddly, in an already fiddly game.

The occurrence, type and severity of the injury should all be resolved within the normal attack/damage roll and without multiple tables.

Palegreenpants
2015-02-27, 01:53 PM
I usually disagree with just about every word this guy puts on the forum, but I've got to echo this. It's too fiddly, in an already fiddly game.

The occurrence, type and severity of the injury should all be resolved within the normal attack/damage roll and without multiple tables.

Ah, I can totally see that. Don't want to turn 5E into Rollmaster, now, do I?

Easy_Lee
2015-02-27, 02:04 PM
I usually disagree with just about every word this guy puts on the forum, but I've got to echo this. It's too fiddly, in an already fiddly game.

The occurrence, type and severity of the injury should all be resolved within the normal attack/damage roll and without multiple tables.

That was kind of you.

Regarding resolving them in a single roll, treating natural 20s as provoking injuries depending on damage type may work for what you're trying to do, OP. Easiest thing would be to just make the saving throw based on the opponent's attack/spell save DC (use strength, dexterity, or a casting stat). Piercing weapons might cause bleeding wounds, for instance.

I would just say crit = injury save, but that may make champions overpowered.

Palegreenpants
2015-02-27, 02:08 PM
I would just say crit = injury save, but that may make champions overpowered.

Yes, I'm beginning to see how this might be made to be less fiddly. I might cut out bleed damage entirely. Also, any thoughts on Vitality?

Easy_Lee
2015-02-27, 02:13 PM
Yes, I'm beginning to see how this might be made to be less fiddly. I might cut out bleed damage entirely. Also, any thoughts on Vitality?

One more number to track, and clerics can't actually heal people's wounds anymore...I'm not a fan, sorry.

Mr.Moron
2015-02-27, 02:38 PM
Yes, I'm beginning to see how this might be made to be less fiddly. I might cut out bleed damage entirely. Also, any thoughts on Vitality?

Honestly I'd want to go for something a bit more abstracted on the whole. Your player base is a bit resistant to this in the first place and you said your goal was really just to increase difficulty, and increase risk aversion. Which means all you need is a system that does that, not a complex attempt at determining a set of discrete injury types.

Implement some kind of lingering damage, a wounded state (with a generic penalty) and key it all off the hit point pool.

EDIT: Example of what I mean.

Lingering Damage:

Each time a character takes 5 or more points of damage from a single source their maximum hit points are reduced by 1 for every 5 points of damage(rounded down), taken from that source.

Short Rest: When a character takes a short rest they regain maximum hit points equal to their Constitution modifier or their proficiency bonus, whichever is better.
Long Rest: When a character takes a long rest they regain maximum hit points equal to their Constitution score.

Magical Healing. A spell slot spent on cure wounds spell can restore a heal a number of lingering damage equal to the spell slot used. When used this way it does not grant the usual hit point restoration

Wounds

When a character suffers damage from a single source equal to or greater than one-half their base maximum hit points or they are reduced to 0 hit points, they are Wounded. While wounded a character's proficiency is halved (rounding down).

When a character is Wounded by a critical hit that wound is a Grievous Wound. Grievous wounds deal damage to a character equal to 1/2 their level (rounded down) and all this damage is Lingering Damage rather than usual 1/5th.

Anything that would stabilize a dying character prevents the Grievous Wound from dealing additional damage.

Healing Wounds
Healing Wounds: If tended to by a character with the medicine skill during a long rest a wounded character is no longer wounded so long as they are not grievously wounded.

Healing Grievous Wounds: Grievous wounds cannot be healed so long as the character has any lingering damage. If they have no lingering damage, on a long rest a character heals a grievous wound with a DC 20 Constitution check. Being tended by someone with the medicine skill grants advantage this check.

Kane0
2015-02-27, 11:35 PM
Which means all you need is a system that does that, not a complex attempt at determining a set of discrete injury types.

Implement some kind of lingering damage, a wounded state (with a generic penalty) and key it all off the hit point pool.


I second this. Something that reinforces the fact that combat is deadly and to be avoided without making it more complex should be the goal.

For example you could steal a bit of 4e terminology and say at half hp you are bloodied, and make bloodied a condition that reflects the fact that you gave taken physical wounds.

Then say when you are subject to a critical hit or damage while bloodied you also incur a wound, determined by you or a roll if your not sure based on the hit they took. Make a table or list of likely wounds and some effects of them for your own reference, but make sure they are not severe enough as to out your players off entirely. You ideally want a sweet spot where they are careful but not cowardly.

And lastly make sure that being taken to 0 is bad. Add a rank of exhaustion when they are brought back from 0.

Then all you have to do is tweak how hit dice worlk for your game, depending on how resilient you want your party to be. Maybe cap the amount they can spend per rest, or spells that heal restore fewer hp but allow you to spend hit dice as well, reducing their daily resources.

Palegreenpants
2015-02-28, 09:09 AM
I'll be posting a trimmed-down version of the wounds system soon. It'll be, at its simplest, a wound save on crits and upon being dropped to zero HP.

JAL_1138
2015-03-01, 12:38 PM
I would just say crit = injury save, but that may make champions overpowered.

You might grant a size bonus to the enemy's save so that, for example, you don't see a halfling champion wielding a dagger forcing wound saves on the Tarrasque without extremely lucky rolls.

JNAProductions
2015-03-01, 12:51 PM
You might grant a size bonus to the enemy's save so that, for example, you don't see a halfling champion wielding a dagger forcing wound saves on the Tarrasque without extremely lucky rolls.

But why wouldn't you want that?

On a more serious note, I actually like healing spells restoring vitality, not HP. I would, however, add two things to this system:

1) In combat, healing spells restore HP equal to their spell level and the rest is vitality.

2) Out of combat, you can extend casting time to one minute to heal HP in the usual amounts.

This means in combat HP healing is possible, a bit, and it's simple and easy to heal out of combat like usual. Just a tad longer.

TheDeadlyShoe
2015-03-01, 01:07 PM
You could consider totally arbitrary injuries based on narration. For example, you could rule a player that gets flung into a wall breaks their arm, leaving them one handed and taking penalties to concentration.

The advantage of an arbitrary system is that the injuries can fit the story you are painting for your players. Also, it's a lot faster than rolling against charts.

Easy_Lee
2015-03-01, 03:17 PM
You could consider totally arbitrary injuries based on narration. For example, you could rule a player that gets flung into a wall breaks their arm, leaving them one handed and taking penalties to concentration.

The advantage of an arbitrary system is that the injuries can fit the story you are painting for your players. Also, it's a lot faster than rolling against charts.

+1, I always prefer a system that fits the story rather than the other way around. And looking up charts is no fun in combat.

A system for determining recovery, or how to heal specific kinds of debilitating injuries, would be a good idea I think. That said, we kind of already have that in the form of spells/effects like restoration and regeneration.

Psikerlord
2015-03-01, 03:39 PM
Hey peeps,

I've been building a variant system for healing and injury. It's still based on HP, but incorporates elements of lingering wounds and adrenaline. Now, my players have been pretty nonconstructive when it comes to trying this stuff (they're sort of softcore-Munchkins/casuals/Nintendo fans,) so I thought I'd get the Playground's opinion on my work. Before I present the system, I must give a disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, this system is meant to make the game harder. It's meant to instill the game's combat with lingering consequences, encouraging greater utilization of tactics. Also, walls of (well edited) text are approaching.

To begin, here's the base of the system. It's composed of three mechanics, the most important of which is called Vitality (warning, long spoilers are long.)
Bleeding Out. If a creature is reduced to 0 Hit Points or Vitality, they cannot gain Vitality or HP until they have been stabilized. A creature may be stabilized by the following actions. The use of a healer's kit, a casting of, Greater restoration, Heal, Lesser restoration, Mass heal, Regeneration, or Spare the dying. Also, the administration of a healing potion.
Slow healing. Characters regain no Hit Points at the end of a long rest. Instead, characters may expend Hit Dice at the end of a long rest to regain HP, just as they would in a short rest. Characters regain HD at the end of the long rest, as normal. Characters may immediately expend the HD that they receive at the end of a rest in exchange for HP.
Vitality and Hit Points. A creature's Hit Points (HP) represent its natural ability to endure hardship and resist death. Hit Points can only be regained via natural means, such as spending Hit Dice during a rest.
All healing spells, potions, and actions bestow Vitality, instead of Hit Points (unless otherwise noted.) Vitality points are essentially artificial Hit Points. They represent an added will to live, or a magically bestowed degree of pain resistance. Vitality does not represent the healing of physical wounds, but a bolstering of the mind, and thus the body. For example, if a Cleric casts Cure wounds to bestow a creature with Vitality, they are providing the creature not with physical healing, but with magic-induced strength; the will to continue fighting and ignore further pain.
A creature may have a maximal quantity of Vitality equal to the number of HP that they have lost. For instance, if a Fighter has 50 HP maximum, takes 10 HP worth of damage, and is then healed for 12 Vitality points, the Fighter gains 10 Vitality.
If a character has Vitality remaining at the end of an encounter, his or her Vitality points drop to zero after a "cooldown" period of minutes equal to his or her Constitution score. This cooldown is reset if the character enters combat, or receives more Vitality. If a character has 0 Hit Points remaining at the end of an encounter, but has Vitality remaining, they fall unconscious and are stable when their Vitality drops to zero.

Secondly, the Wounds and Fractures system:
Some weapons of exceptional weight and damaging prowess have a chance to inflict especially severe injuries. A creature that receives such a wound or fracture must have it tended and bandaged within one hour of receiving the injury, or else risk deadly infection or irreversible damage. Tending to such an injury requires one use of a medicine kit and a successful DC 15 Medicine (Wisdom) check. If a weapon has the possibility of dealing one injury type or another (e.g., lacerating/crushing,) randomly determine which one property takes effect. If a weapon possesses two wound effects, such as the two-handed sword, apply both effects. If a weapon possesses both the Crippling and the Crushing property, roll once on a d4, and apply both corresponding injuries.
Crushing. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the creature suffers a fracture. The effect and location of the fracture is determined by rolling a d4 on the Fracture table. The fracture heals after a period of time equal to 4d4 times 5, minus the target's constitution score (minimum of one day.)
Crippling. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the creature suffers a wound. The effect and location of the wound is determined by rolling a d4 on the Wounds table. If the creature was reduced to 0HP, they suffer a failed death saving throw. The wound heals after a period of days equal to 3d4 times 5, minus the target's constitution score (minimum of one day.)
Lacerating. When a weapon with this property scores a critical hit or reduces a creature to 0HP, the creature hit must make a Constitution save with a DC equal to half the damage dealt. Upon failure, the target receives a bleeding injury. They suffer half the attack's damage at the start of their turn for each round thereafter, and a level of exhaustion on every third round after they begin bleeding. This bleed effect ignores damage resistance. The bleeding effect may be ceased with a medicine check and one use of a medicine kit. The check's DC is equal to half the damage for which the target is bleeding.


Wounds, for the crippling property:
1. Leg One of your legs is crippled by a grievous wound. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound. In addition, your speed is reduced by 5 feet, and you must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw after using the Dash action. If you fail the save, you fall prone.

2. Arm One of your arms is crippled by a grievous wound. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound.. In addition, you have disadvantage on weapon attack rolls made with your crippled arm. This penalty applies to two-handed weapons. You cannot wear a shield on your crippled arm.

3. Head One of your eyes is scratched or swollen shut, and your head is severely bruised. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound.. In addition, you have disadvantage on ranged attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

4. Torso You receive a crippling, painful wound to the torso, like a gash across the ribs, or a collapsed lung. Your Hit Point total is permanently reduced by a value equal to half the damage of the attack which delivered this wound. Additionally, Whenever you attempt an action in combat, you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, you loose your action and cannot take reactions until the start of your next turn.

Fractures, for the crushing property.
Fractures
1. Leg You suffer a fractured foot or leg.Your speed is reduced by half, and you have disadvantage on all acrobatics and athletics checks that involve the use of your legs. At the end of a Dash action, you fall prone.

2. Arm You suffer a fractured arm or hand. You are unable to wield a weapon or shield with your wounded arm. You have disadvantage on all acrobatics and athletics checks that involve the use of your arm.

3. Head You receive a concussion or cracked skull. When you are hit by a melee attack, you must succeed at a Constitution save of DC 15 or be stunned for one round.

4. Torso You receive a broken collarbone, rib, or pelvis. You are vulnerable to all slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage.

I had the same issue as you - wanting more deadly/dangerous combat. I quite like the idea of crit saves based on damage, but i fear that might give your party too many injuries.

I ended up going with the lingering injuries rules from DMG, but made my own modified table of "Injuries and setbacks" (including injuries, magical mishaps and damaged equipment too). I opted to only have players roll when their PC hits zero hp, not on crits.

Best of luck