Making a boss without overwhelming the action economy?

[danzibr]

So I read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1#) earlier today, and it said that RPG-like bosses don't really work in D&D due to the action economy. The PC's either swamp them and beat them down, or they're absurdly strong. The author suggested making adds to even out the action economy.

However... from my experience, this leads to very slow encounters. And slow makes them feel less epic.

So, players and DM's, how have exciting boss battles gone in your D&D career *without* just adding mooks to devour some of the players' actions?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Find ways of giving the boss more actions. If you make the boss custom you can give the unique abilities to do this; quickened spells and a lot of psionic tricks do this readily. Otherwise adding a small number of powerful minions (like have a boss battle be 2-3 powerful enemies instead of one big boss and a pile of mooks).

The one I had work best was a unique quasi-deity that would alternate using a free action shades, and free action greater shadow evocation. It quickly wore them down, although to make things simple I had the summons all set out ahead of time I secretly let the ones who would miss on 10 take 10 on attacks until they flanked.

[Flickerdart]

So, players and DM's, how have exciting boss battles gone in your D&D career *without* just adding mooks to devour some of the players' actions?
I had a fun boss built once - a caster with Multivoice and Quicken who started the encounter by casting three spells of the "flying weapon that attacks people for free" variety. The extra attacks helped me keep the threat on every single party member at the same time, instead of blindly jacking up the boss's power and having him bring it all to bear against one character.

There was also an illusionist who had a bunch of images and then teleported him and his familiar around to make it seem like they were all real. Really, any caster can manage action economy pretty well with AoE (especially battlefield control) spells.

Any way to take some or all characters out of the direct fight work well - a sniper that starts the encounter a thousand feet away can be a great boss because the PCs' action advantage doesn't mean anything when they can't use those actions to fight back.

[Troacctid]

Make the environment itself part of the fight. Geysers of scalding steam erupt from the ground (but the boss is immune to the damage). Strong winds check your movement (but the boss is large enough to ignore them). Platforms collapse under the players' feet (but the boss can fly). The building is on fire (but the boss is a fire elemental). And so on. Boss fights don't need to take place in a flat, featureless arena.

[danzibr]

I love all the ideas so far. *Especially* the animated weapons and environment stuff.

I'd like to share one of my own. It was a boss for a group of 4 level 1 players. There was a decent bit of building up to this guy (a murder on a boat, if anyone recalls me talking about that several months back). So they're in the bottom of this boat, and the murderer takes them on to keep them quiet. He's a big dumb dude. I forget the level, but he had enough hp to soak up a blow or two, and he was designed to be a grappler. I gave him the Improved Grab quality. He smacked one person and grabbed on, holding him in his right arm. Smacked another and grabbed on, holding her in his left arm. This still left him free to kick people. I found it quit comical.

[Flickerdart]

This still left him free to kick people.
You mean he didn't have Weapon Proficiency: Player Character? :smallamused:

[Arbane]

Cheat. Give the enemy a feat called "CHEATING NPC BS" that lets them take a second standard action per turn at init-10, or something.

[danzibr]

You mean he didn't have Weapon Proficiency: Player Character? :smallamused:
Know what I'll do if I ever run that campaign again ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Include effects that reduce the party's action economy. Pit traps, spells like Web, Black Tentacles, Kelpstrand, Time Hop, wall effects, etc., and weak adds that aren't much of a threat but force the PCs to deal with them, especially if they're the ones producing those effects. Another option is to use charm, dominate, and confusion effects on the PCs to get them to spend rounds fighting each other instead of the boss.

Give them more targets, to reduce the number of actions the PCs use on the boss. This is particularly useful if there are multiple boss targets, for example illusions far enough apart that they can't move between them quickly, and they aren't sure which one the boss's attacks are coming from, but it doesn't increase the boss team's actions. Again, adds that aren't much of a threat but are somewhat difficult to kill is a good choice here. Another way to do this is with a multi-stage boss, the classic, "This isn't even my final form!" There aren't many mechanics in D&D to represent this, but a Fiend of Possession or someone using Magic Jar could do it.

Debuffs are also pretty good, especially if it prevents them from doing anything useful for multiple rounds. Entangling Exhalation, fear effects, silence or antimagic areas, vision effects such as Darkness, Obscuring Snow, Pyrotechnics smoke cloud, etc., disarm effects including stun which makes them drop what they're holding, destroying spell component pouches/divine foci, etc. are all extremely potent at preventing the party from quickly defeating a boss opponent. Persistent damage effects like Kelgore's Grave Mist, Freezing Fog, and various other damaging auras, along with effects that punish opponents for attacking like Death Armor and Fire Shield, especially with Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken attached, can deal a significant amount of damage to the party without the opponent spending (m)any actions at all.

Defensive buffs on the boss, particularly Mirror Image or (Greater) Invisibility, Stoneskin/Heart of Earth, flight, energy resistances, SR, high saves, Evasion, etc. which protect him from more than just physical attacks are fairly necessary. Just boosting his AC will make certain characters just feel useless, and HP can only go so far. The Share Pain: Psicrystal trick is also useful, especially if he buffs with temporary HP, since he takes half damage from all sources and the Psicrystal's Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much. The Psicrystal can be in a compartment on his person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or hit it with area effects. The Psicrystal can even have a Healing Belt which it uses to heal him during the fight.

Include ways to get out of debuffs, whether via necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)/effects or Iron Heart Surge/Quick Recovery or racial immunities (undead, construct, etc.) or Contingency or whatever else you can come up with. An easily debuffed boss is not much of a threat to experienced PCs!

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you've got a really big enemy, you can break him up into multiple enemies. First his arms, then his legs, and so on. One of my favorite encounters was a five hundred foot tall robot where each arm, leg, head and torso was a different creature. The legs stomped, the arms grabbed, the head shot lasers from its eyes, and the torso spawned minions. There was a great cinematic feel to the fight, with real tangible effects for blowing up body parts.


Debuffs are also pretty good, especially if it prevents them from doing anything useful for multiple rounds.
Yeah... don't do this. Don't do this ever, if you can plausibly get away with it. I consider it terrible GMing to force a player to sit out multiple rounds of combat (which could easily translate to an hour of real-time) because they rolled badly on a single save. It increases the challenge, sure, but it's frustrating in the worst way.

Instead, I second the "extra turns" bit. Be up front with the players. "I like to give boss enemies extra turns because it's the only way to make solo encounters work. Is that ok with everyone?" I've run games that way for years with no problems.

[Troacctid]

Instead, I second the "extra turns" bit. Be up front with the players. "I like to give boss enemies extra turns because it's the only way to make solo encounters work. Is that ok with everyone?" I've run games that way for years with no problems.

Pff, you don't need their permission, you're the DM, you can (and should!) give them whatever special abilities you want and say "He has a special ability that lets him [take an extra turn/summon a new minion/gain temporary HP/etc.] each round as long as he's [wearing his power armor/standing on unworked earth/within X feet of an energy crystal/etc.], deal with it."

[Afgncaap5]

I tend to make custom bosses who can do multiple things at once. "Swallow Whole" is a great example of that kind of thing; once it's swallowed a player, that player's being "dealt with" by the monster's stomach/gullet/whatever, which almost acts like a second monster.

Another option is to rig the environment. Can your boss, maybe, pull a lever on a wall as a free action? Or by surrendering one of his or her attacks of opportunity? Trap doors or sudden walls being put into place are always fun, especially if the boss knows what the terrain can do and the players don't.

I recently used an enemy called The Falcon Queen against my players. She was a custom humanoid (human) monster with ranger-themed abilities. Most of her attacks were designed to influence multiple party members, ranging from a sort of hail of arrows that would do minor damage but could pin players, or moves that would let her tumble between or around. (She almost started reminding me of 4e rangers in a few of her custom abilities.) She never would've done much damage, but she sort of simulated being in multiple places at once without really having to do it.

Now that I've said all that, the players decided not to fight her directly when they met the queen and decided they didn't like her, so I don't know yet if her stats actually worked well or if they would've crashed and burned. Still, it was fun.

[A_S]

In the vein of "use illusions and other forms of deception to keep the boss from having to fight the whole party at once," I feel like Steve the Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250938-Party-Issues-Need-Advice&p=13630097) deserves a place in this thread.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Three possibilities that are effective;


The Doomsday Protocol:
1) The enemy is tough enough to survive at least 10 rounds of the whole party attacking him.
2) The enemy recovers rapidly so that the party must attack constantly; delays mean the enemy wins by attrition.
3) The enemy is not subject to easy disabling.
4) The enemy attacks in overwhelming force so it can't simply be ignored.


The Sauron Protocol:
1) The enemy is either not present to be attacked or is sufficiently hidden to avoid attacks.
2) The enemy has a given amount of resources it can attack with.
3) The PCs have to win by running the enemy out of resources or find alternates into robbing him of power.


The Nyx Protocol:
1) The enemy is a force of nature that cannot be harmed.
2) The enemy delivers slow but steady opposition to the PCs.
3) The PCs have to either acheive their goal before they're killed or accomplish things via diplomacy.