PCs raising armies

[asorel]

What are all of the options that players have for creating armies? There's the obvious answer of hiring a mercenary company, or becoming a noble of sufficiently high rank to field a personal army. Necromancers can raise skeletons, but that seems to limited to a few hundred, possibly more if they ever get the ability to control Wights (AFB at the moment). One of the villainous class options probably has a similar ability, though I imagine it would be less powerful. Druids can create something of an army using the Awaken spell. Finally, it's possible to summon a Spectator using Beholder eye-stalks, but 2 Beholders together only net enough stalks to create 5 Spectators. Even if you had a way to factory-slaughter Beholders with little danger to yourself, Spectators are limited to guard duty.

Are there any other ways for player characters to raise armies, RAW? If not, has anyone created a homebrew of some sort (perhaps a variant Epic Boon) that deals with this?

As the prefix implies, this is a purely speculative endeavor for the moment. None of my players are anywhere near high enough level to begin considering something like this, nor are either of the characters I play.

[DanyBallon]

I'm running Kingmaker, and I'm planning to use the rules from Ultimate Campaign as is. The rules about armies and running large scale battles are pretty much a system by themselves and can be run in parallel of any edition you wish :)

[EvanescentHero]

I'll second that. PF's large-scale combat and kingdom-building rules are pretty comprehensive and could most likely be adapted into this edition without too much trouble.

Isn't there a background that gives you servants or something? Maybe that could be a starting point.

[asorel]

I'll second that. PF's large-scale combat and kingdom-building rules are pretty comprehensive and could most likely be adapted into this edition without too much trouble.

Isn't there a background that gives you servants or something? Maybe that could be a starting point.

The variant to the Noble background gives you non-combat retainers. Maids and the like.

I'll check out the Kingmaker system if I can. Is it part of an SRD or something similar? I'm assuming not, as it's a splatbook.

[SharkForce]

zombies are theoretically unlimited in number thanks to the finger of death spell (there are of course practical limitations like the part where you need to kill things to create your zombies and that isn't going to make you popular with the neighbours).

you can possibly use mass suggestion to persuade people to work for you for a year. this is basically just mercenaries, though, except that they don't necessarily need to have been willing to start.

you can also use planar binding to control certain creatures for extended durations (up to a year with a level 9 spell). depending on what creatures you use (you can get some fairly high CR stuff potentially), the result may be as effective as a much larger army of normal creatures.

other than that, you've pretty much got social skills and roleplaying. i mean, you can help that along (true polymorph, for example, can let you create an army from basically nothing given enough time... but your ability to lead said army rather than have it ignore you is largely based on your ability to convince them to stay on as followers).

[TrexPushups]

If you only use finger of death on the neighbors no one really likes it could work out.

[SharkForce]

If you only use finger of death on the neighbors no one really likes it could work out.

most people take exception to zombies in general. now, whether or not they take exception enough to do something about it is another matter. after all, just because you don't *like* your neighbour's army of 10,000 zombies doesn't mean you're about to march over there with your 2,000 infantry and risk making his army larger...

but ultimately, whether or not they approve of you killing off orc raiders or whatever, they probably still don't like a necromancer for a neighbour :P

[Shining Wrath]

There are prices for hirelings on PHB pg. 159. For 2 GP / day, you can hire a mercenary. There's no upper limit set but were I to DM I'd say you need officers, who cost more per day. 1 corporal per 5 privates, 1 sergeant for 5 corporals, and so on. 10,000 privates, 2,000 corporals, 400 sergeants, 80 lieutenants, 16 captains, 3 lieutenant colonels, 1 colonel, 1 brigadier general; about 13,000 men in all (some of whom may be women), average of 5 GP / day each for the officers, call it 35,000 GP a day to field a modest sized army. Of course you might get a discount hiring in bulk over hiring one at a time; DM choice. Prices might also go down for long-term employment; you might rule someone could field this army for 500,000 GP per month.

Since 5e has no wealth by level guidelines this may or may not be feasible in your campaign.

[TrexPushups]

Might want to check out Domains of War. It has a good system for raising and handling armies and could be ported over without too much trouble I bet

[asorel]

most people take exception to zombies in general. now, whether or not they take exception enough to do something about it is another matter. after all, just because you don't *like* your neighbour's army of 10,000 zombies doesn't mean you're about to march over there with your 2,000 infantry and risk making his army larger...

but ultimately, whether or not they approve of you killing off orc raiders or whatever, they probably still don't like a necromancer for a neighbour :P

Why are you letting your army wander the streets? Just keep them locked up in the drop pods aboard your airship, or hold them in formation within a demiplane. They're zombies, it's not as if they need to eat.

Also, while the neighbors may not be overly fond of necromancy, they might be willing to make an exception for the mage whose adventuring party prevented the Klaatu Verata Empire from falling to marauding Orcs, and restored the Empire to its former glory when it was shepherded by the Lord Vendinari.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I don't really have any answers, but I felt obligated to say that I find the Kingmaker rules severely lacking. They kind of just ignore the likely repercussions of building magic (2 BP discount on 1 building a turn? Really?), and it's really just all numbers. There's not much room for roleplaying the culture formation or, really, any formation of the kingdom. Having the system be so disconnected from the other rules is a real issue, I think.

[Kane0]

I don't really have any answers, but I felt obligated to say that I find the Kingmaker rules severely lacking. They kind of just ignore the likely repercussions of building magic (2 BP discount on 1 building a turn? Really?), and it's really just all numbers.

Yeah, they specifically ignored spellcasters when making the rules to avoid making another scenario where the tier 1s rule. (Good old 3.P days)

I agree though, its just a bunch of numbers and an extra character sheet to keep track of. Good for a general overview but when you get into the micromanagement its rather lacking.

[DanyBallon]

The variant to the Noble background gives you non-combat retainers. Maids and the like.

I'll check out the Kingmaker system if I can. Is it part of an SRD or something similar? I'm assuming not, as it's a splatbook.

Here you go, the rules for kingdom building and mass combat are available for free in the PRD
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar.html

[asorel]

Here you go, the rules for kingdom building and mass combat are available for free in the PRD
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar.html

Thanks, I'll be sure to look these over.

[DanyBallon]

Mike Mearls just released rules for Mass combat in it's Unearthed Arcana column

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/unearthed-arcana-when-armies-clash

I skimmed the document and it looks interresting, but maybe a bit complicated. I'll have to reread the document to get a definitive opinion on this new set of rules.

[asorel]

Mike Mearls just released rules for Mass combat in it's Unearthed Arcana column

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/unearthed-arcana-when-armies-clash

I skimmed the document and it looks interresting, but maybe a bit complicated. I'll have to reread the document to get a definitive opinion on this new set of rules.

It looks nice. It's certainly in-depth, but not to the point that I would call it overly complicated. Combat is almost always the portion of tabletop games that needs the most rules, and mass combat is no exception. The fact that it works with just about any creature is reassuring as well. Soon my legions of reanimated orcs shall rove the land.

[TrexPushups]

It looks nice. It's certainly in-depth, but not to the point that I would call it overly complicated. Combat is almost always the portion of tabletop games that needs the most rules, and mass combat is no exception. The fact that it works with just about any creature is reassuring as well. Soon my legions of reanimated orcs shall rove the land.

Which smells worse: regular orcs or reanimated orcs?

[asorel]

Which smells worse: regular orcs or reanimated orcs?

This calls for an experiment. I put up my army in the North, with a human force between it and the raiding orc tribes to the South. The one towards which they run determines the which one they find more repulsive.


But in all seriousness, my zombies won't smell at all. I'll make sure to keep them stored in an arctic region, with their bloodstream pumped full of penicillin. I'll have a few "festering" units in reserve if I ever have to resort to biological warfare.



Also, in preparation of this, I created a basic template to convert any creature into a zombie equivalent, based off of comparing the stats of zombies, skeletons, and the "Skeletal X" (Minotaur etc.) creatures in the Monster Manual. This is what I have thus far:



AC: Subtract 2
HP: Same HD, use adjusted CON score
STR: Unchanged
DEX: Unchanged
CON: Increase to 16, if not already higher.
INT: Set to 3, if not already lower
WIS: Set to 6, if not already lower
CHA: Set to 5, if not already lower
Damage Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: Poisoned
Darkvision 60 ft
Can understand languages spoken in life, but cannot speak
Undead Fortitude: If reduced to 0 HP, make CON save, DC 5+dmg past 0. If succeed, gain 1 HP.
Humanoids only: In addition to any existing actions or attacks, gains the following:
Slam Attack: +3, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6+1 bludgeoning dmg.

[Vogonjeltz]

There are prices for hirelings on PHB pg. 159. For 2 GP / day, you can hire a mercenary. There's no upper limit set but were I to DM I'd say you need officers, who cost more per day. 1 corporal per 5 privates, 1 sergeant for 5 corporals, and so on. 10,000 privates, 2,000 corporals, 400 sergeants, 80 lieutenants, 16 captains, 3 lieutenant colonels, 1 colonel, 1 brigadier general; about 13,000 men in all (some of whom may be women), average of 5 GP / day each for the officers, call it 35,000 GP a day to field a modest sized army. Of course you might get a discount hiring in bulk over hiring one at a time; DM choice. Prices might also go down for long-term employment; you might rule someone could field this army for 500,000 GP per month.

Since 5e has no wealth by level guidelines this may or may not be feasible in your campaign.

I think the ratios are perhaps off for a medieval mercenary army. There's probably 1 Captain per company, with each company being anywhere from 250 to several thousand men. Besides the captain there may or may not be staff officers, which depends purely on just how organized the company is. Only the very largest companies ever reached 10,000 or so men.

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-legendary-mercenary-armies-from-history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Company

Worth noting, unpaid (or even sometimes paid) they are apt to resort to looting and pillaging wherever it is they happen to be. I suppose it's up to the creativity of the DM to come up with a variety of options for the players to try and hire. (i.e. There's this Green Knights brigade with a good reputation and 354 mounted cavalry and 103 footmen, or there's the Sons of Set who have a dodgier rep, but work cheaper and have six times as many footmen (but only a hundred or so cavalry).

Could be fun.