Animate Dead + Command Undead = unlimited undead army?

[ericgrau]

I've been putting together a miniomancer and I noticed that the spell command undead seems pretty good. It's an auto-succeed against mindless undead, gives complete control over them and it lasts days per CL. Between command undead and haste, maybe clerics aren't the best undead army builders. Evil clerics can command undead as a class feature, but the HD caps are pretty harsh. Or is there a problem with this sor/wiz strategy that I'm overlooking?

[OldTrees1]

Not unlimited. The Command Undead spell does have a limited duration after all so you do end up with an indefinite yet finite army rather than an indefinite infinite army(aka an unlimited army).


However you are right that the Command Undead spell is the spell for creating undead armies (up until the level that Animate Dread Warrior becomes necessary).

Take a 40 caster level(Circle Magic) Necromancer(Wizard, Cleric, or Dread Necromancer) that is casting Command Undead boosted by their Lesser Chain Metamagic Rod. What do they get? For 3 2nd level slots per day they get 40(duration)*21(targets per cast)*3(# of casts)= 2,520 max HD skeletons.


Command Undead(Rebuke Undead) can get a larger army but only by going infinite by controlling undead that control undead that control undead that ...


So it is generally accepted that Dread Necromancers are the best Generals since they have both Command Undead(The Spell) and Command Undead(Rebuke Undead)

[Psyren]

Or is there a problem with this sor/wiz strategy that I'm overlooking?

Dispel Magic. The other two forms of control cannot be undone in 6 seconds, leaving you surrounded by hostiles.

[OldTrees1]

Dispel Magic. The other two forms of control cannot be undone in 6 seconds, leaving you surrounded by hostiles.

While Dispel Magic is a weakness, it is not as big a weakness as it would first appear. A necromancer leading an undead army via Command Undead(the spell) will almost certainly have a caster level above 19(so no Dispel Magic) and might have a caster level above 29(so no Greater Dispel Magic).

A 12th level undead army Dread Necromancer (Wizard 1 / Dread Necromancer 6 / Red Wizard 5) has a caster level approaching 40.

A 10th level undead army Wizard (Wizard 5 / Red Wizard 5) likewise has a high caster level.

[Inevitability]

May I suggest Chaining the spell? The reduced save DC doesn't matter when your targets gain no save, and getting +CL extra undead for a +3 adjustment seems like a good trade to me.

But yes, AMF's and dispelling are a problem. The first can probably be solved by giving all your undead tinfoil hats with Shrink Item cast on them, though. The hats automatically increase in size sixteenfold when in an AMF, which will cause them to grow, shielding your undead. Just add holes smaller than 1 ft. to allow them to keep using their attacks.

[ericgrau]

Yeah I thought of dispel but that spell is a bit limited so that wasn't a huge concern. It's more likely that the foe won't have dispel, plus won't know which undead if any are controlled magically and so won't dispel. And in the rare event that he does dispel there's a good chance that only half the undead get dispelled and that the uncontrolled undead are already next to the enemy not the necromancer. It's slightly more annoying after the fight because regaining control of the undead cuts into my limited spells per day. Which leads into the next issue.

True the duration means command undead isn't truly unlimited, but you can get quite a lot limited only by your spells per day times caster level days. So an additional question might be the ways to improve on the quantity. And how to keep that many undead "alive" so that I can continue to gather more. In a mostly core game with severely limited access to divine magic. I might be able to pick up some potions eventually or since I'm a sorcerer maybe UMD a wand of ILW. I suppose that's an arcane drawback, but part of that is because the whole world is lacking in divine so it's harder to get from outside sources. Potions seem to be pretty common but there aren't any divine full casters AFAIK, or they're rare.

[Ravens_cry]

You're going to need a lot of black onyx. 63,000 for the above example, and it's a disposable cost, You aren't getting it back when your dudes bite it.

[ericgrau]

Yeup and our money is limited. Anybody have experience with how effective skellies are in a real campaign versus the cost? Will they be at least partly useful or will they be total money pits? I've seen T.O. WBL based animate dead abuse, but that seems to ignore the issue of replacing lost ones. The other possible source of undead is enemy undead, but many of them are intelligent and get a save. Plus they aren't fully dominated when controlled, merely friendly. Still I may spam command undead until I get lucky.

Worst case scenario I will have plenty of other spells and sorcs don't need money that badly. But I want to see if I can get at least a little mileage out of undead.

[Psyren]

While Dispel Magic is a weakness, it is not as big a weakness as it would first appear. A necromancer leading an undead army via Command Undead(the spell) will almost certainly have a caster level above 19(so no Dispel Magic) and might have a caster level above 29(so no Greater Dispel Magic).

A 12th level undead army Dread Necromancer (Wizard 1 / Dread Necromancer 6 / Red Wizard 5) has a caster level approaching 40.

A 10th level undead army Wizard (Wizard 5 / Red Wizard 5) likewise has a high caster level.

Red Wizard is a very niche solution to this problem. You whip that out, and the GM is likely to have Master Specialist Abjurers with Dispelling Cords and the Inquisition domain come after you instead, assuming he doesn't just resort to Disjunction and not need a check at all.


Yeah I thought of dispel but that spell is a bit limited so that wasn't a huge concern. It's more likely that the foe won't have dispel, plus won't know which undead if any are controlled magically and so won't dispel. And in the rare event that he does dispel there's a good chance that only half the undead get dispelled and that the uncontrolled undead are already next to the enemy not the necromancer.

It's actually very easy to tell; Animate Dead is instantaneous, so those undead won't have an aura on them (no active magic), while your commanded pets will. And dispelling seems to me to be a very standard strategy in case you've buffed any of them or there's a desecrate active before they send in the Sun clerics to nuke them.

[OldTrees1]

Yeup and our money is limited. Anybody have experience with how effective skellies are in a real campaign versus the cost? The other possible source of undead is enemy undead, but many of them are intelligent and get a save. Plus they aren't fully dominated when controlled, merely friendly. Still I may spam command undead until I get lucky.

Undead utility goes in stages. For the first set of levels a few mindless undead with a few HD are useful. For the next set of levels your few mindless undead need to be max HD to be relevant. After that your undead brutes need class levels to be relevant(Animate Dread Warrior is recommended).

As for gp cost, there are several ways to bypass it (Fell Animate, Pale Master 2, Spellstiched) at the cost of less uses of Animation per day.



Red Wizard is a very niche solution to this problem. You whip that out, and the GM is likely to have Master Specialist Abjurers with Dispelling Cords and the Inquisition domain come after you instead, assuming he doesn't just resort to Disjunction and not need a check at all.
Well, undead army necromancers are also niche so I don't see "such necromancers boost their caster level a lot" as an invalid argument.

In the specific case of Circle Magic vs Master Specialist Abjurers with Dispelling Cords and the Inquisition domain:
Yes a Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 with Dispelling Cords and the Inquisition domain can on a 20 with a Greater Dispel Magic dispel a cl 40 Command Undead spell. A 5% chance of failure does not invalidate a tactic. (Especially if it can be reversed with a 5th level spell to their 6th level spell)

In the specific case of Disjunction:
A 9th level spell against a 12th level PC? I will assume this was a joke, by the time Disjunction is expected from a Boss, the necromancer will have had to move on to Animate Dread Warrior merely to have strong enough minions.

[ericgrau]

The campaign is mostly core with a few outside PrCs allowed but if it helps rainbow servant is allowed. That's about the only way to get anything divine as a class feature. Also available is the sorcerer wizard hybrid class whose name I should know but somehow can't think of at the moment ultimate magus.

[Psyren]

In the specific case of Disjunction:
A 9th level spell against a 12th level PC? I will assume this was a joke, by the time Disjunction is expected from a Boss, the necromancer will have had to move on to Animate Dread Warrior merely to have strong enough minions.

If your army is marching on the city gates, buying a scroll or two should be within the municipal budget I'd say. Especially if you're one of those dirty Thayans :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

If your army is marching on the city gates, buying a scroll or two should be within the municipal budget I'd say. Especially if you're one of those dirty Thayans :smalltongue:

Oh, right... scrolls. I totally didn't forgot those. :smalltongue::smallredface:

Still if you are marching an entire army(multiple distinct Chain Command Undead spells) against a city, I am not sure you would mind them spending their wealth to cost to 1-2 5th* level slots since each of their Disjunctions would only disrupt 1 Chain Command Undead's worth of undead. Even if you are not close enough to fix it with a 5th level slot, it would only be 1-2 of how many such groups you couldwanted** to marshal?

*Actually it could be a 2nd+Rod or a swift 6th(quickened)+Rod

**This is why I don't recommend undead army necromancers actually fighting with even 10% of their potential army.

[Telok]

Recalling of course that since Command Undead allows no save for mindless undead anyone else can come along, slap it on the skelly next to you and you find your own bodyguard wailing on you. A wand and an expert who can hit the DC 20 UMD check can harsh up your army. Thinking further about it does Command Undead break invisibility? A team of low level mages could hide behind an illusion and spam a wand, or a rogue could simply hide. Mindless undead and wizards having such good spot and listen checks.

Any plan seriously endangered by a third level expert may need to be rethought.

[OldTrees1]

Recalling of course that since Command Undead allows no save for mindless undead anyone else can come along, slap it on the skelly next to you and you find your own bodyguard wailing on you. A wand and an expert who can hit the DC 20 UMD check can harsh up your army. Thinking further about it does Command Undead break invisibility? A team of low level mages could hide behind an illusion and spam a wand, or a rogue could simply hide. Mindless undead and wizards having such good spot and listen checks.

Any plan seriously endangered by a third level expert may need to be rethought.

In the case where something is controlled by 2 masters, they make Cha checks for dominance. Just 1 more reason Dread Necromancers are the General of Necromancers.

[Sliver]

Recalling of course that since Command Undead allows no save for mindless undead anyone else can come along, slap it on the skelly next to you and you find your own bodyguard wailing on you. A wand and an expert who can hit the DC 20 UMD check can harsh up your army. Thinking further about it does Command Undead break invisibility? A team of low level mages could hide behind an illusion and spam a wand, or a rogue could simply hide. Mindless undead and wizards having such good spot and listen checks.

Any plan seriously endangered by a third level expert may need to be rethought.

But the Command Undead doesn't negate the previous cast one. Which specifically prevents the controlled undead from attacking you.

Regardless, whenever more than one caster is trying to control the same subject and their orders are conflicting, you make an opposed Charisma check to see who wins. I doubt a third level expert will have nearly enough Charisma compared to the necromancer, considering most necromancers will have a pretty high Charisma.

Of course, if you allowed those low levels to come that close to you, perhaps you deserve to be assassinated.

Partially ninja'd.

[Telok]

But the Command Undead doesn't negate the previous cast one. Which specifically prevents the controlled undead from attacking you.

Actually the attacking prevention is under the section of the spell regarding intelligent undead, it doesn't seem to apply to the unintelligent ones. And, yes, Charisma 30 versus Charisma 15 is a d20+10 versus d20+2 which is a lump but is in no way any guarantee of being in control.

Look again at what level of necromancer is being used and what portion of the daily spell allotment is allocated to control instead of detection and defense. If an expert with max ranks in hide, move silent, UMD, and a wand of Command Undead is any danger then you might want more reliable undead than skeletons and zombies.

Looking at the spell again I noticed that it relys on verbal communication. Any noise interference (listen checks), silence spells (on the undead, the caster has better saves), or a figment illusion of the necromancer giving contradictory orders (or attacking his own undead) can cause havoc in the ranks.

[Jack_Simth]

I've been putting together a miniomancer and I noticed that the spell command undead seems pretty good. It's an auto-succeed against mindless undead, gives complete control over them and it lasts days per CL. Between command undead and haste, maybe clerics aren't the best undead army builders. Evil clerics can command undead as a class feature, but the HD caps are pretty harsh. Or is there a problem with this sor/wiz strategy that I'm overlooking?
You've got a number of basic problems:
1) Multiple control effects are a thing. Someone else can cast the same Command Undead (possibly chained) and if you're not there actively guiding the army... well, they just stole a big chunk of it. Even if you are, it's an opposed Charisma check each round to see who wins, and Wizards do not traditionally have very high Charisma (Sorcerers do, though).
2) Dispel Magic and associates. There's a fair number of ways to terminate a spell prematurely, and those will lose you your army.

However: A Cleric can still do it better! Why? For a Cleric, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell, suitable for making into an Oil. If the cleric has reasonably loyal minions from other sources (like, say, Leadership), then the Cleric can make an oil which the Cleric's Minions can then use to animate skeletons and zombies (even if the minions are just 1st level Commoners, this still works just fine). And, of course, the Cleric has most of the undead-boosting spells already (the Evil Cleric can make sure that the undead are made in a Desecrated area affixed to an alter to an evil deity in an Unhallowed area, for starters - it's all class spells). Slightly higher initial costs, but no maintenance spell slots needed.

[OldTrees1]

Look again at what level of necromancer is being used and what portion of the daily spell allotment is allocated to control instead of detection and defense. If an expert with max ranks in hide, move silent, UMD, and a wand of Command Undead is any danger then you might want more reliable undead than skeletons and zombies.

Well normally, I have the daily allotment be 3 2nd level slots + 1 lesser chain metamagic rod when adventuring (1 used, 2 as backups) and at most 3x as much when conquering (6 used, 3 as backups). So 9 2nd level spells and 3 rods of WBL? That is nothing at 10-12th level so I do not see it making a significant impact in detection and defense.

[Telok]

Well normally, I have the daily allotment be 3 2nd level slots + 1 lesser chain metamagic rod when adventuring (1 used, 2 as backups) and at most 3x as much when conquering (6 used, 3 as backups). So 9 2nd level spells and 3 rods of WBL? That is nothing at 10-12th level so I do not see it making a significant impact in detection and defense.
For normal adventuring days I'd agree. I'd still worry about those experts though. It takes lots of them to make a CR appropriate challenge. We aren't saying this isn't a viable option, I'm just noting that it's also it's own counter in addition to the normal anti-spellcaster counters. Enough CR 3 experts with partially charged wands to make a CR 9 encounter can give you problems, especially with hide/move silent ranks vs your minion's no bonus perception skills.

The issue isn't insurmountable, but it is another point of possible failure in the plan.

[OldTrees1]

For normal adventuring days I'd agree. I'd still worry about those experts though. It takes lots of them to make a CR appropriate challenge. We aren't saying this isn't a viable option, I'm just noting that it's also it's own counter in addition to the normal anti-spellcaster counters. Enough CR 3 experts with partially charged wands to make a CR 9 encounter can give you problems, especially with hide/move silent ranks vs your minion's no bonus perception skills.

The issue isn't insurmountable, but it is another point of possible failure in the plan.

I just noticed something. Those partially charged wands only affect 1 skeleton per action. The necromancer would be dealing in sets of up to 21. While the experts do have a lot of action economy advantage, I am not sure they overcome the 21:1 factor. Even if they do, reasserting control(2nd level slot) is not an ECL appropriate response from the Necromancer for most levels discussed(5th+ level slots).

So I don't think it would be a point of failure in an of itself. I think the corruption of the ranks would need to be used as a step in a tactical maneuver to make a big enough impact in an conquering scenario. Say suddenly creating a path in the swarm to allow a charge against the necromancer.

[Telok]

It will depend on how you play things. If there are several rounds of subversion before the first command is given it could get pretty chaotic. Opening and blocking areas for tactical moves can work too. I'm starting to wonder just what power level of undead is being used here. To be relevant at 10th level or so you're pretty much looking at what? 16+ hd skeletons and zombies? Hydras, giants, dragons and such? Those are the levels where just hit dice and a melee attack don't cut it anymore for adventurers. If it's a BBEG plan for a conquering zombie army that's fine, those ought to have things that smart players can take advantage of. If it's a pc though I'm not seeing where it's any better than normal necromancer builds or just being a wizard. For adventuring you usually want one to four of the toughest undead you can control and as few ways for that control to break as possible and you still have to defend them from anything that isn't a dumb brute monster. Even then I'd keep in mind that anything worth adventuring with is probably going to have to be dangerous enough to also threaten the necromancer if it's controlled. Having your ten headed hydra zombie suddenly turn on you when some mook wins a charisma test is embarassing.

The clause about the spell breaking if the caster's allies attack the controlled undead is interesting too. In a horde situation having the undead start attacking each other might be able to start a loyalty cascade where an undead's reaction to attack it's attacker could start breaking the control spells. Again it's good if this is a BBEG plan but I'm not seeing benefits over the normal player character necromancer set up where you have less fragile control of the undead. It would be a good way to subvert an existing undead army, disguise yourself as a zombie and spend a day or two subverting the undead before issuing a single command.

[ericgrau]

However: A Cleric can still do it better! Why? For a Cleric, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell, suitable for making into an Oil. If the cleric has reasonably loyal minions from other sources (like, say, Leadership), then the Cleric can make an oil which the Cleric's Minions can then use to animate skeletons and zombies (even if the minions are just 1st level Commoners, this still works just fine). And, of course, the Cleric has most of the undead-boosting spells already (the Evil Cleric can make sure that the undead are made in a Desecrated area affixed to an alter to an evil deity in an Unhallowed area, for starters - it's all class spells). Slightly higher initial costs, but no maintenance spell slots needed.
I assume the trick there is that your minions are considered the controller for the oil, so you get more HD that way?

Extra desecrate hp does seem handy. It's only a 2nd level spell so I wonder if there's a way to get it in item form. Or pay an NPC, but I'm betting he'll charge more than usual due to the lack of clerics in this world.

I'm confused about what unhallow is for. Is it for the turn resistance and a buff? Because it doesn't seem that mobile and the gp and casting time keeps it from being used in combat. Great for NPCs with lairs. Doesn't seem as useful for wandering PCs.