I want to make smite evil better

[Jesse30]

Hello Playground dwellers!

So i'm playing a paladin for the first time, and I'm enjoying it very much. Although, I wish I could use Smite Evil better, thus:

How might I make Smite evil better? I'm an 8th level Paladin. Also, is it possible to make a target the alignment evil for a duration? Reason being, good, or neutral encounters can be troublesome for me if I can't smite them. I hope that makes sense.

Jesse

[Chronos]

Good encounters, you probably shouldn't be trying to fight at all. And neutral encounters are uncommon enough, and usually low-powerful enough, that you shouldn't have to worry too much about them.

I cannot fathom roleplaying a paladin who wants to make good things evil just so he can more effectively beat them up. That's kind of exactly the opposite of a paladin, there.

[Twurps]

There is improved smiting (CD) and extra smiting (CW) that do pretty much exaclty as they say.

[Troacctid]

Awesome Smite from Complete Champion gives your smites a substantial buff if you also use them with Power Attack.

[BWR]

Hello Playground dwellers!

So i'm playing a paladin for the first time, and I'm enjoying it very much. Although, I wish I could use Smite Evil better, thus:

How might I make Smite evil better? I'm an 8th level Paladin. Also, is it possible to make a target the alignment evil for a duration? Reason being, good, or neutral encounters can be troublesome for me if I can't smite them. I hope that makes sense.

Jesse

No, there is no easy way to make beings a different alignment. You can't just rewire their metaphysical makeup without serious, usually time consuming magic or lots of therapy. Part of the thing about paladins is they are (at least intended to be) very good at killing evil stuff but not quite so good at killing non-evil stuff. That's just the way things are and they way they are intended to be and imo the way things should be. Depending on system and resources allowed you can make the paladin pretty good at other stuff than just smiting (Pathfinder's paladin makes a good tank even when not smiting and gets pretty nice abilities for support and healing. 3.5 paladin needs lots of splatbooks to be good at anything at all)

[Jesse30]

Hey! Thank you all for the replies! You're all incredible helpful, and I love coming here for help.

I feel like I may need to do some explaining haha. So the main reason I asked about possibly finding a way to smite neutral, and or other good, was because I know my DM. He LOVES evil, so that's why i'm a paladin, we strike down evil all the time, it's great, BUT, my DM also does knows this. He often changes it up with encounters, such as Lawful good knights challenging my honor. Which is basically a way for him to make me fight good aligned. I foresee this being possible with bigger, and probably stronger encounters, and thus, I was trying to think ahead. If that makes sense.

I RP the paladin as best as I can, keeping the code of conduct and such in high regard when making decisions, but not everyone in my party is is honorable. I do my best to keep them straight, but only last night; we got trapped in a evil clown circus in a demi-plane. In order to leave we had to complete a 7 step puzzle of sorts, we only made it through three, but the last one was focused on trying to get us to go against our own moral code, i'm PRETTY sure, as the main evil clown instructed us to execute various other clowns that failed to complete there trails and gain access to the traveling evil circus. Some of my party members, not being entirely good, foresaw that as the only way to escape, claiming self-defense I guess. I understand there logic, but being a man of honor, I refused, and instead challenged this guy to a duel. I did defeat him, but only after some of the other members killed there prisoner. I managed to free some, ANYWAY, not to bore you here...

I have a feeling i'm going to have make some tough calls soon, which means maybe fighting some pissed off good aligned, or some crazy neutral animals or something, it's a circus haha.

We are mainly using Pathfinder, but we are allowed access to any resource really, as long as we talk to the dm.

Jesse

[Seerow]

The best quick fix for Smite Evil that I know of is make it last for a full round instead of a single attack, and make the daily uses into encounter uses. So by the time you have a 20th level paladin, you're smiting on basically every attack you make.



As for using RAW, check out Ordained Champion. It uses Turn Undead attempts to Smite (and extra turning attempts are WAY easier to get than extra smite attempts), and can smite anything, regardless of the target's alignment. It's a pretty great deal.

Another thing to consider is Binder. There is a Vestige (Andras) that gives "Smite Good or Evil" with a 5 round cooldown. Tenebrous grants Turn/Rebuke Undead with a 5 round cooldown. Both are fourth level vestiges so require either 7 levels in binder or 5 plus a feat, but give a lot more potential longevity than any other option in the game bar houserules that I am aware of. Especially if you do something like Cleric1/Binder8 (at 8 you can bind them both) into Ordained Champion, so you get 2-4 smites every encounter right off the bat, and a pool of turn undead you can convert into more smites on the fly, and none of them are restricted from hitting evil characters (though 1-2 per encounter will have trouble against neutral opponents).



Edit: Just saw that you are playing primarily pathfinder. For what it's worth, I'm not entirely sure any of this interacts with Pathfinder's version of smite. Technically they all refer back to the Paladin's Smite Evil, so if you are using PF Paladin with its encounter duration smite evil, then using these classes gives you a ton of encounter durating smiting. In this case I'd probably pull back one level of Binder and just use Tenebrous, using that free turn attempt every encounter to fuel alignment agnostic smite, and then use your Cleric Turn Undead attempts on other things. I assume Pathfinder has the equivalent of 3.5's divine feats, but if not since you are using 3.5 sources, pick those up. Divine/Domain feats are great, and a ton of them are usable as a swift action.

[JDL]

From the roleplaying perspective, remember that you get infinite uses of Detect Evil on a Paladin for exactly this point. If they're evil, they're usually okay to smite if they're up to no good. If your DM is throwing good creatures at you, instead of taking the bait, state your position to them and offer to let them join you on your quest to defeat evil. If they attack you first, it's pretty clearly a case of self defence. If they're neutral, judge them based on their actions. Harming innocents or obstructing the proper execution of the law is grounds for punishment. If they're not outright worthy of death, you can beat them until they bleed and then use a single point from Lay on Hands to spare their life, take them prisoner and deliver them to justice later.

[Jesse30]

Hey thanks for the responses guys! I will have to do some research and see what I can do.

Thanks again!

Jesse

[ericgrau]

Smite combines well with two weapon fighting and crit weapons, especially in Pathfinder where you get a full round of smites. Not crit if you fight a lot of crit immune foes, but even with a crit weapon crits are such a small portion of your damage that crit immune foes won't ruin a crit weapon user either. So dual kukris or rapier + kukri for example. If you have a disabling caster in your party and like to coup de grace, then dual light picks or heavy pick + light pick. And if you have a party caster then dual weapons also combine well with spell storing. I think the APG also has a teamwork feat that lets other melee allies hand their crits to you. So the rogue with his 18-20 rapier hands you his crit for you to use on your x4 pick. Smites get multiplied. I think the feat is called butterfly something or the other, but I'm not sure.

[justiceforall]

Hey thanks for the responses guys! I will have to do some research and see what I can do.

Thanks again!

Jesse

There's an easier way to do this - prestige class into Gray Guard. It's still a paladin, still gets smite progression, but it loosens the targetting requirements for your smite. It doesn't matter what alignment they are - if they get in the way of you doing good, smash them out of the way.

Combine that with a couple of smite feats listed above and your problems should be solved.

[BWR]

Smite combines well with two weapon fighting and crit weapons, especially in Pathfinder where you get a full round of smites. Not crit if you fight a lot of crit immune foes, but even with a crit weapon crits are such a small portion of your damage that crit immune foes won't ruin a crit weapon user either. So dual kukris or rapier + kukri for example. If you have a disabling caster in your party and like to coup de grace, then dual light picks or heavy pick + light pick. And if you have a party caster then dual weapons also combine well with spell storing. I think the APG also has a teamwork feat that lets other melee allies hand their crits to you. So the rogue with his 18-20 rapier hands you his crit for you to use on your x4 pick. Smites get multiplied. I think the feat is called butterfly something or the other, but I'm not sure.

Correction: PF smite lasts until the enemy is dead, not just one round.
Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) is the feat. And it's not Teamwork, making it actually a decent choice.


@OP: I suppose you can talk to your DM and see if you can have Smite Evil turned into Smite Any Enemy. Just note that this is really powerful, and I wouldn't allow it in my games, unless I rewrote how paladins worked in general.
I'd be more focused with other stuff the paladin can do. The Bonded Weapon, if you choose that, is a very powerful tool. It basically allows you to customize your weapon against any enemy you meet.
They get some really good spells that can help. Hero's Defiance lets you use LoH as an immediate action upon going to negative hp (this can easily save your life). Paladin's Sacrifice lets you take damage or effects that target others. There are spells that change your weapon damage between bludgeoning, slashing and piercing. Just look through the paladin spell list.

[hamishspence]

There's an easier way to do this - prestige class into Gray Guard. It's still a paladin, still gets smite progression, but it loosens the targetting requirements for your smite. It doesn't matter what alignment they are - if they get in the way of you doing good, smash them out of the way.

Combine that with a couple of smite feats listed above and your problems should be solved.

You need 9 levels of Grey Guard to gain the ability to "smite characters of any alignment" though.

[justiceforall]

You need 9 levels of Grey Guard to gain the ability to "smite characters of any alignment" though.

Yes but at 4th level it starts to open up your options by letting you smite chaos.

You can qualify for it at 5th, and assuming the GM doesn't ban the retraining rules, the OP could get to 4 levels of Gray Guard in a reasonable time frame.

[Red Fel]

He often changes it up with encounters, such as Lawful good knights challenging my honor. Which is basically a way for him to make me fight good aligned. I foresee this being possible with bigger, and probably stronger encounters, and thus, I was trying to think ahead. If that makes sense.

Fun fact: Lawful Good does not mean "I must accept every duel offered at any time." Frankly, if a Lawful Stupid knight challenges your honor, you can always turn it around by (after noting that he doesn't ping on your Evil-dar) saying something along the lines of, "Friend, I can see that you fight on the side of righteousness. Why must we cross blades? Let us instead join forces and fight for the right as one."

Another fun fact: Diplomacy is a class skill for Paladins.


I have a feeling i'm going to have make some tough calls soon, which means maybe fighting some pissed off good aligned,

Fun fact: See above. If it thinks, and it's Good, then there's a reasonable chance that "Let's senselessly murder everything" isn't its first instinct, and peaceful solutions can be reached. If it doesn't think, then it's probably not Good.


or some crazy neutral animals or something, it's a circus haha.

Do the animals use weapons and armor? Because you do. And I think that kind of dramatically increases your survival chances.

One more thing! If Grey Guard isn't on the table, have you considered the Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-the-enlightened)? Yes, most of its class abilities are based on unarmed strikes, and it requires a Monk dip, but if nothing else, CoI lets you Smite Chaos at level 1. So that's a thing.

[DeltaEmil]

The feat Strength of Conviction from the book Exemplars of Evil allows a character with the smite good or smite evil class feature to smite a creature regardless of alignment (however, no bonus to the attack roll from having a high Charisma bonus) once a day.

It is not an evil feat, so a paladin can take it, even if the feat ironically is within a book that is all about bad guys.

[kalasulmar]

If you are using Pathfinder rules Smite Evil already has a duration: 1 day or until you or the target is dead.