If all prestige classes granted full casting progression?

[Thealtruistorc]

So, the big reason that most PrCs in 3.5 wind up being borderline useless is because they don't provide full casting progression, often hampering spellcaster builds more than they benefit them.

This led me to ask the question of what would happen if all prestige classes were altered to accommodate full progression a la the incantatrix or abjurant champion (or, in the case of the geomancer, both cleric and wizard progression). Which PrCs would rise immensely in value?

Master Transmorgrofist seems like an obvious candidate for improvement. What else?

[Telonius]

Warshaper. Changeling Wizards ahoy!

You'd see a big bump from anything that gives full BAB. Probably see a lot more one-level dips to qualify for things.

Most likely anything from Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum.

EDIT: For things that were intended to be caster-centric or at least caster-ish: Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer become much more worthwhile.

[Troacctid]

You mean bad classes that become viable, or viable classes that become broken? For the first one: Enlightened Spirit becomes a freeroll for Warlocks. Scorpion Heritor turns any caster into a gestalt Rogue. Putting Seeker of the Song next to Sublime Chord looks a lot less like a cruel joke and a lot more like an awesome combo.

For the second one, Master of Many Forms, Ur-Priest, etc.

[Forrestfire]

Oh man, all the awesome underpowered Eberron PrCs become playable. Thunder Guide and Silver Key for the win! :smallbiggrin:

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay, let me modify my statement. What if every Prestige Class That already advanced casting or manifesting resulted in full progression? (I would count the warshaper, though, as it is intended to develop from a caster).

[Troacctid]

My previous suggestions of Enlightened Spirit, Seeker of the Song, and Master of Many Forms still stand, then.

Master of Masks, Warchanter, Green Star Adept, and all three prestigious class variants from UA come to mind as good choices under this paradigm.

[Forrestfire]

Entropomancer becomes worth using, in that case. Cool abilities and a kickass capstone.

[snailgosh]

I think Metamind would be pretty strong to go nova with a psion or wilder

[Lerondiel]

Void Disciple, Mindbender, Bladesinger and Warpriest would all become easy choices

[Jack_Simth]

I think Metamind would be pretty strong to go nova with a psion or wilder
And once you get the capstone, add in the temporal reiteration power, and you need never run low on power points (provided you never use your Swift action for anything else, of course).

[Wacky89]

Personally I think it's an great idea. You keep looking at the same prestige classes over and over.

[Jack_Simth]

So, the big reason that most PrCs in 3.5 wind up being borderline useless is because they don't provide full casting progression, often hampering spellcaster builds more than they benefit them. This is not a bad thing. The power ceiling on a well-designed caster is VERY high, more so than most tables actually want, simply because spells are JUST THAT GOOD (plus the combinatorial explosion, of course). For practical purposes, spellcasting is the only real class feature that matters for the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and to a lesser extend, the Druid (Druid's Wildshape matters, as does it's Animal Companion, although they matter progressively less as levels progress; Cleric's domain powers sometimes scale, sometimes not). A PrC isn't really supposed to be Wizard+, Sorcerer+, or Cleric+. They're really supposed to be Wizard (-A and +B), Sorcerer (-A and +B), or Cleric (-A and +B). When the PrC is strictly better than the base class on which it builds, there is a balance problem (in addition to the pre-existing balance problem in 3.5, that is). Trouble is, about the only thing of note that the Full Casters have to lose is spellcasting progression. That Sorcerer already has d4 HD, 2+Int skill points/level, slowest BAB, and only one good save. If he doesn't want a familiar (many don't, they're a considerable risk, and there's lots of useful alternate class features that trade away the familiar) there's zero mechanical drawback for the Sorc taking a PrC.

[Blackhawk748]

Master of the Unseen hand becomes awesome instead of sad. Warchanter gets fairly crazy (i thought it was decent before hand) Arcane Archer becomes viable.

Basically a lot of sad PrC get very happy.

Oh and 10 levels of Sandshaper anyone?

[Wacky89]

This is not a bad thing. The power ceiling on a well-designed caster is VERY high, more so than most tables actually want, simply because spells are JUST THAT GOOD (plus the combinatorial explosion, of course). For practical purposes, spellcasting is the only real class feature that matters for the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and to a lesser extend, the Druid (Druid's Wildshape matters, as does it's Animal Companion, although they matter progressively less as levels progress; Cleric's domain powers sometimes scale, sometimes not). A PrC isn't really supposed to be Wizard+, Sorcerer+, or Cleric+. They're really supposed to be Wizard (-A and +B), Sorcerer (-A and +B), or Cleric (-A and +B). When the PrC is strictly better than the base class on which it builds, there is a balance problem (in addition to the pre-existing balance problem in 3.5, that is). Trouble is, about the only thing of note that the Full Casters have to lose is spellcasting progression. That Sorcerer already has d4 HD, 2+Int skill points/level, slowest BAB, and only one good save. If he doesn't want a familiar (many don't, they're a considerable risk, and there's lots of useful alternate class features that trade away the familiar) there's zero mechanical drawback for the Sorc taking a PrC.

So by your definition Druid is the only class that gets to have actual class features and the other base classes shouldn't get as many options as them?

[Blackhawk748]

So by your definition Druid is the only class that gets to have actual class features and the other base classes shouldn't get as many options as them?

The Cleric and Wizard both have class features. The Cleric gets armor prof and Turn undead (yes nothing past lvl one, but their still fine) and the Wizard gets feats. The Sorcerer is actually the only caster with no actual class features. Yes they have Summon Familiar but for gods sake your supposed to pay for that, so you usually trade it off, but the trade offs generally only work in conjunction with feats you need to take. In short the other three have nothing to complain about and the Sorc has every reason to b**ch

[A Tad Insane]

Mind bender is now like having leadership

[Thealtruistorc]

This is not a bad thing. The power ceiling on a well-designed caster is VERY high, more so than most tables actually want, simply because spells are JUST THAT GOOD (plus the combinatorial explosion, of course). For practical purposes, spellcasting is the only real class feature that matters for the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and to a lesser extend, the Druid (Druid's Wildshape matters, as does it's Animal Companion, although they matter progressively less as levels progress; Cleric's domain powers sometimes scale, sometimes not). A PrC isn't really supposed to be Wizard+, Sorcerer+, or Cleric+. They're really supposed to be Wizard (-A and +B), Sorcerer (-A and +B), or Cleric (-A and +B). When the PrC is strictly better than the base class on which it builds, there is a balance problem (in addition to the pre-existing balance problem in 3.5, that is). Trouble is, about the only thing of note that the Full Casters have to lose is spellcasting progression. That Sorcerer already has d4 HD, 2+Int skill points/level, slowest BAB, and only one good save. If he doesn't want a familiar (many don't, they're a considerable risk, and there's lots of useful alternate class features that trade away the familiar) there's zero mechanical drawback for the Sorc taking a PrC.

Isn't the idea of a PrC to further develop a specific playstyle and offer new capabilities in that specific niche? That's always been the way it has worked with martial prcs like the assassin (a rogue who devotes his energy towards killing over all else) or kensai (a character who builds a mastery of one specific fighting style). Any penalties the character should suffer should emerge from tough prerequisites (and, admittedly, some prcs should have harsher prereqs is they don't sacrifice anything else), because the opportunity cost for entering a PrC should be taking what you did to get in or losing out on the chance to go the full route on another one. That is the way they work, building upon certain character concepts to offer more flavorful and developed abilities, a premise flawed by the fact that taking away spellcasting levels hurts the character's ability to perform a role more than it usually benefits it (I find it especially odd that a so-called master transmorgrofist can never learn shapechange). Most PrCs backfire because they take away too much and end up making a worse warpriest/transmorgrofist/what have you than just taking the regular class, and that's why I feel they should be fixed.

[RedWarlock]

Whenever you have caster 20 being always worse than caster 10/prestige 10, you have a balance problem. There should be *some* kind of loss for the extra powers gained by the PrC, or nobody would ever take a class to 20 again.

Initial costs like hefty prereqs aren't a good idea, because someone will find a way to circumvent them or their cost of advantage. (and rarely will you have a prereq that is *truly* unrelated, they're always somehow tangentially related, or otherwise props a concept related to it)

If PrCs need to preserve the per-level access progression, then maybe the cost needs to be something else rather than caster progression, something that is as much a burden, but in a different angle. I helped a friend rebrew the Eldritch Knight, and rather than adding abilities, I pushed for *options* for the existing abilities, spending spell slots for boosts, that kind of thing. Maybe some specific mode-switch ability should come with a commensurate cost to saves, or have to burn HP to power abilities, or something else. If a caster-progression boost is untenable, what *would* be enough to give up that it becomes a near-even trade whether to join the PrC or not?

[Zaq]

Dread Witch (HoH) and Nightmare Spinner (CMag) work very well together thematically, but using them as written, they both lose a CL at first level, so it's really painful to put them together. (Doubly so since they work better with CHA-based, and therefore spontaneous, casters.) They're not overwhelmingly powerful, but they're fun, and I'd like to play a character with them who didn't totally cripple their own spellcasting in the process.

Master of Shadow (ToM) is a fun class for Shadowcasters—they get a combat-ready pet, so it provides them a nice backup option for contributing to a fight even when they don't have the right mystery for the job or when they don't want to expend one of their few dwindling mysteries remaining for the day. But it loses a CL at level 1, which makes it kind of hard to take. Sure, it's just one level lost, but at the level range when it first becomes available, that's still a pretty high price to pay—especially because you can take it at level 6 (Shadowcaster 5/Master of Shadow 1), which means that you're losing the CL before you hit effective Shadowcaster level 7, which means that you're waiting another level before you can access initiate mysteries and (more importantly) cast your apprentice mysteries twice per day. That's a really hard thing to delay by even a single level. It would definitely be a more attractive option if it didn't lose that level.

Moving over to Libris Mortis, I'm not a huge fan of Pale Master in general, but its first level is one of the most comically bad levels in the 3.5 canon, right up there with Rogue 20. (Who puts a 100% dead level on the first level of a PrC?!) Making it not lose spellcasting at that level at least makes it no worse than your base class, even if it's still poor design to not actually grant you much of anything despite putting you behind a wall of prereqs. Also from Libris Mortis, True Necromancer would become a decent (if not great) theurge class if it didn't lose so many damn caster levels in the process—still arguably worse than just single-classing it, but at least it just has the typical theurge progression instead of losing CL on top of that.

Void Disciple (CDiv) actually has very strong class features. Sense Void is actually crazy good—it's a divination on steroids, but it's not actually called a divination, so it gets around things that are immune to divination. Moment of Clarity uses that word that WotC really should learn not to use: "any." Altering the Course is a near autosuccess on one thing per day. The class actually has really good tricks. It just loses an unacceptably high number of caster levels. If it didn't lose those CL, it would be really, really good.

Also from CDiv, Shining Blade of Heironeous goes from being laughably bad to being a somewhat niche class that, at least, offers full BAB along with your spellcasting. No prereq feats, either, so if you happen to have the right alignment and the right patron (and/or a GM who will work with you to flex the prereqs), it's an easy way to bump up a divine caster's BAB.

[Thealtruistorc]

If PrCs need to preserve the per-level access progression, then maybe the cost needs to be something else rather than caster progression, something that is as much a burden, but in a different angle. I helped a friend rebrew the Eldritch Knight, and rather than adding abilities, I pushed for *options* for the existing abilities, spending spell slots for boosts, that kind of thing. Maybe some specific mode-switch ability should come with a commensurate cost to saves, or have to burn HP to power abilities, or something else. If a caster-progression boost is untenable, what *would* be enough to give up that it becomes a near-even trade whether to join the PrC or not?

I've had a couple ideas about how to handle this. My first involves placing bars on certain spells or schools of magic (similar to the incantatrix), but this raises concerns about how much each class would be worth. A better solution, in my opinion, would be to reduce the number of spell slots a class gains per level by one for every level they take in a PrC.

[Jack_Simth]

So by your definition Druid is the only class that gets to have actual class features and the other base classes shouldn't get as many options as them?
Where do you get that? I was referring to how the classes are currently, not what should be. By a level that PrCs are an option, the Sorcerer has gotten all of the class features (beyond spellcasting advancement) of note that the class is going to get. The Cleric and Wizard marginally less so, but essentially the same (without heavy investment, Turn Undead becomes effectively useless past about level 5 anyway; only some domain powers progress by cleric level; all the Wizard gets are bonus feats, and we know how useful those are based on the Fighter having so many and that class's power level). Of the Core Full Casters in 3.5, it's really only the Druid who gets class features for which losing them by taking a full casting PrC instead is a relatively serious drawback.
Isn't the idea of a PrC to further develop a specific playstyle and offer new capabilities in that specific niche? That's always been the way it has worked with martial prcs like the assassin (a rogue who devotes his energy towards killing over all else) or kensai (a character who builds a mastery of one specific fighting style). It is supposed to be a focus thing. The trouble being that when you push all casting PrC's to full casting, they become Cleric+, Wizard+, and Sorcerer+, and don't really end up giving up anything of note. Consider the Mindbender PrC for a Wizard under the 'all of them are now full casting' rule:
A few cross-class ranks in a few skills (Caster level 5, so you're taking your first level of Mindbender at 6th; max cross-class ranks is 4; easy for an Int-based caster to get enough ranks in all of them)
One spell known (and it's a useful one to boot).
One alignment restriction (nongood).
- not exactly hard.

If this wizard takes all ten levels of Mindbender, the wizard loses out on two bonus feats. In return, the wizard gets:
A good Fort save
An improved skill list (social skills are in fact useful in the right campaign)
Telepathy
Improved social skills
Progressively improving Enchantment (improved suggestion a few times a day, improved charm monster, improved dominate, et cetera).

At full casting, this is pretty much Wizard+, unless you value those wizard bonus feats a LOT.

Compare to a Full Casting Dragon Disciple: Draconic as a language known, spontaneous arcane spells, Kn(Arcana) 8 ranks.
Consider the Sorcerer that traded out the familiar for something or other (maybe metamagic specialist).
Knowledge(Arcana) is a class skill the Sorcerer is very likely to take anyway. 8 ranks in that are no big deal at all.
A language known is either two skill ranks or (if you have a positive Int mod) is pretty much free. Oh yes, and Draconic is a nice go-to for various ancient things of power simply due to dragons.
What's the Sorcerer lost? Basically nothing under the house rule.
What's the Sorcerer gain? +4 Natural Armour, an average of 5 HP/level (d4->d12, +2 Con), 2 points of BAB (Half to 3/4's for ten levels), a breath weapon, an energy immunity, Extraordinary flight, an energy immunity, and a few natural attacks to never be unarmed again.
Again: Sorcerer+.

Now, I'm not going to say that the existing Mindbender is perfectly balanced with respect to the base Wizard (The Wizard-5/Mindbender-10, at present, is usually going to be weaker than the Wizard-15 at present), nor that the existing Dragon Disciple is perfectly balanced with respect to the base Sorcerer, but simply making tem Full Casting would be going overboard, by a lot, at most tables (not all, though).
Any penalties the character should suffer should emerge from tough prerequisites (and, admittedly, some prcs should have harsher prereqs is they don't sacrifice anything else), because the opportunity cost for entering a PrC should be taking what you did to get in or losing out on the chance to go the full route on another one.Less power now for more power later? In theory that works... in practice not so much. More often, you'll either end up starting out at low level, soaking the drawbacks to get there, and then not having the character last long enough for things to reach a balance point... or, alternately, the character will start at high level and never have to suffer through the early drawbacks. Even in full games that run 1-20, this STILL happens: a 1st level character in a 10th level game can't contribute, so if a PC is lost or retired it almost always gets replaced by a new PC that is almost never more than two levels behind the rest of the party. The metagame makes this necessary at most tables, and most tables run with it (you'll usually be looking at the same level or one below). Less power to start for more power later simply doesn't work out well due in part to that metagame necessity.

If you actually read the PrC header in the DMG, it makes it clear what those PrCs are actually for: Worldbuilding to make things more flavourful. They're not supposed to be about MOAR POWAH! They're supposed to be about MOAR FLAVOUR!

They may need some help to be balanced at a given table... but a blanket "All of them are now full casting" is going well overboard at most.

[Chronos]

Jack_Simth has it right: If you can't think of any reason to go base class 20 instead of a prestige class, then the prestige class is broken. And no class that gives even half progression is useless: A full caster is so powerful that, even with a bunch of levels missing, they're still going to keep up with the mundanes.

Nor do you really even lose familiar progression, since most prestige classes advance familiars more than sorcerer or wizard do. Yeah, yeah, you miss out on the things on the familiar table, but those are piddling: The real advancement comes from the familiar using your skills, saves, BAB, and half-hitpoints, and almost all prestige classes advance at least some of those more than sorcerer or wizard do.

Thealtruistorc, I agree with you that Incantatrix had a good idea, to bar a school of casting when you take it (though that's not nearly enough for all that class gives you). A class doesn't necessarily have to have levels that don't advance spellcasting to be balanced; it can take things away in other ways. Your suggestion of advancement with fewer spell slots would also work. But you absolutely have to take away something.

[Endarire]

Consider what people are doing right now: They're taking PrCs that fully advance casting or nearly so on top of casting classes. This proposed change gives people more variety. The best classes now are still at least some of the best classes after this change. This raises the floor of PrCs that would otherwise be negligible.

Overall, I generally like and approve of this change.

[Thealtruistorc]

If you actually read the PrC header in the DMG, it makes it clear what those PrCs are actually for: Worldbuilding to make things more flavourful. They're not supposed to be about MOAR POWAH! They're supposed to be about MOAR FLAVOUR!

They may need some help to be balanced at a given table... but a blanket "All of them are now full casting" is going well overboard at most.

I agree with you completely that PrCs are all about flavor, and that is most of why I came up with this idea. I've always been perplexed as to why wizards who study a specific avenue of magic are actually less adept at it than a straight wizard. I've been turned away from a lot of interesting PrCs and character builds because the loss of caster levels makes me less effective at the niche I am trying to fill.

Prestige classes to me have always been about developing specific skillsets, sort of like the advanced classes in fire emblem. An example of what I consider to be a well-designed Prestige Class is the Frost Mage from Frostburn, who rewards players going out of there way to try something unusual (most wizards wouldn't go for Frozen Magic) with a bunch of interesting and usable abilities, all without hampering what wizards already do well.

Also, classes that don't offer full progression just wind up getting curbstomped by the few that do (shadowcraft mage and master specialist come readily to mind), so classes+ are already an issue.

[Rowan Wolf]

I agree with you completely that PrCs are all about flavor, and that is most of why I came up with this idea. I've always been perplexed as to why wizards who study a specific avenue of magic are actually less adept at it than a straight wizard. I've been turned away from a lot of interesting PrCs and character builds because the loss of caster levels makes me less effective at the niche I am trying to fill.

Prestige classes to me have always been about developing specific skillsets, sort of like the advanced classes in fire emblem. An example of what I consider to be a well-designed Prestige Class is the Frost Mage from Frostburn, who rewards players going out of there way to try something unusual (most wizards wouldn't go for Frozen Magic) with a bunch of interesting and usable abilities, all without hampering what wizards already do well.

Also, classes that don't offer full progression just wind up getting curbstomped by the few that do (shadowcraft mage and master specialist come readily to mind), so classes+ are already an issue.

A lot of it seemed to involve the basic design of the game initially the spell/spell slot were all that a primary caster gain as "features" and prestige classes especially ones with ones with easy prerequisite. I would guess that at some tables with some groups it was fine (kind of like the late access and subpar casting on ranger/paladin worked). So in gaining the features of the prestige class and still advancing the base classes features it could be seen as almost mini gestalt in and of itself.

That being said game balance (especially with a game as varied as D&D) can be very subjective, Even with the developers themselves options goes to extremes from the early material compared to the stuff published right before the end of the run.