Rate Beauty (from 1-10) for various charisma values

[magicalmagicman]

This is just to get a rough idea on the general consensus of beauty v.s. charisma. I know there is a lot of factors, like a super ugly guy with a very dominating personality can have 20+ charisma, but generally, if you don't think too hard (i.e. min/max people skills, beauty, force of personality, etc.), how beautiful is a character based on his charisma?

This is what I think

I think a C is average, so 70% is average.
I also think Cha of 10 is average. Based on that I have

Cha 4 - 2/10 So disgustingly ugly that everyone wants the guy dead
Cha 6 - 4/10 Ugly
Cha 8 - 6/10 Below Average
Cha 10 - 7/10 Average
Cha 12 - 8/10 Above average
Cha 14 - 9/10 Beautiful
Cha 16 - 10/10 Breathtaking
Cha 18 - 10/10 Beauty can no longer be increased, so other parts of charisma gets boosted.

How about you?

[Zaq]

I view them as 100% unrelated. There's a lot of reasons for that. First, beauty is subjective, but your CHA score is a fixed number. I know that "force of personality" is somewhat subjective as well, but less so than physical beauty. Second, monsters. Many monsters have sky-high CHA scores. Is a gelugon (CHA 20) drop-dead gorgeous? Is a mind flayer (CHA 17) a breathtaking artist's muse? Is a great wyrm blue dragon (CHA 22) astoundingly beautiful, and if so, is it MORE astoundingly beautiful than a great wyrm black dragon (CHA 20)? The very premise seems absurd to me. CHA measures something other than beauty.

Plus, we've all met people with some degree of physical beauty who don't fit the description of having high CHA. They may be pretty to look at, but they can't stay enough in control of themselves to project what they want to project, or they can't really hold your attention when they're talking, or they can't convince people of anything. Not all beautiful people are like that, but that's exactly my point—the two things are totally unrelated.

I don't predict anything good coming of equating the two. You're going to end up with a lot of very unfortunate implications, at best.

[OldTrees1]

Cha = Weighted Average of Beauty and Force of Personality
Beauty = Weighted Average of the various components of Aesthetics where "looks" is merely one of a score of factors.
Force of Personality = Weighted Average in raw talent(not skill) in Presence and Social Manipulation



So when I don't think too hard
Cha 3-18 => 7/10 "looks"


However I do directly correlate non "looks" Aesthetics and Force of Personality directly with Cha when I don't think too hard. In general I would assume that the personality of a Cha 16 person is beautiful with a few ugly spots and has the ability to influence.

[Chronos]

I would say that there's not much correlation between the two, but there's still some. At least part of this is due to the fact that beauty isn't all appearance, and charisma will help you to be perceived the way you want to be perceived. If you have two identical twins, but with different charisma, the low-charisma one might look "not quite right", while the other might, with the exact same appearance, look "quirky, in a cute way".

Of course, this is assuming that the people in question want to look beautiful. Most people do, but an inspiring leader might prefer to look "serious" or "dignified", or the like, rather than "hot". In that case, their high charisma won't improve their appearance, and might even detract from it as a cost to projecting the image they want.

[PsyBomb]

While people with higher charisma scores TEND to be better-looking, it is more from an increased sense of self leading to them better taking care of it. However, high-Charisma people are not necessarily going to be winning pageants. Adolf Hitler is a good example of someone with 16-18 Cha, but he was no Adonis.

[Malimar]

I view them as 100% unrelated.Your position is unsupported by the rules of the game, good sir!
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

That said, there are five factors there, and only one of them is physical attractiveness, so the possibility is wide open that you can get high-charisma hideous folks (the kraken has 20 charisma) and low-charisma attractive folks (no obvious examples spring readily to mind, but I'm sure they exist) who balance out being an outlier on one aspect with being more in line with what you'd expect on the other four.

But with that acknowledged, we can also acknowledge that the OP might have a question that isn't gibberish, merely phrased poorly. I would phrase it with the following caveat: "assuming a population of people who each have each of the five factors in equal amounts, with the recognition that no such population actually exists". There, question fixed.

But then, it occurs to me to ask: Why, though? Given that ability scores are already arranged numerically, what need is there to arrange them on a different numerical scale? Just because the 1-10 scale is what certain people are used to when discussing crass physical attractions? I deliver unto this a resounding "meh".

But fine, fine. If we must. First off, I reject the curious habit of American schools to peg "average" on a 1-100 scale as anything other than 50, which makes it simple: a charisma of 2 is an attractiveness of 1, a charisma of 10 is an attractiveness of 5, and a charisma of 20 is an attractiveness of 10, and any charisma in excess of 20 is superhuman. There. Done.

[Afgncaap5]

I once heard a suggestion that an "Attractiveness" score could be derived by taking the mean of a creature's Constitution and Charisma. I like that approach in general, though it's still not a flawless model (or at least not a model that works across all lines. A fearsome orc warlord who can keep his troops in line wouldn likely look ugly, or at least scary, to humans, but might be ruggedly attractive in orc culture. Heck, ruggedness might be all they care about.)

Ultimately, I think that the "Just don't think too hard about it" approach is a good one, so... not a bad scale to use. I dunno about saying "Beauty can no longer be increased" at 18, but I get what you're goin' for.

[Hyena]

Liches get bonus charisma. Unless all people in DnD world have bone fetish, I really doubt charisma works like you think it does.

[Spiryt]

Instead of 'beauty' as such, I would likely go with some 'force of appearance'.


So with high Cha, - whatever senses you appear to the creatures around you, you are able to make strong impression.

So, standard example in those threads - Atropal - won't appear beautiful to anyone, save some disturbingly weird mind of the universe, with it's 40-some charisma.

But it without doubt will have huge influence on minds. Mostly the emotions will be sheer madness, terror, despair, disgust, only powerful ones.

[Knaight]

I think a C is average, so 70% is average.
I also think Cha of 10 is average.

Putting aside the rest of the post, this doesn't really work. A C is (nominally) average because the system is deliberately slanted for average work to get a 70-80%. There's no reason to think that 70% figure applies elsewhere. Even in school systems that use a system other than A-F (there are a lot of 0-10 or 0-20 systems), the 70% is hardly a constant. By percentile that 70% is well above average. There's no reason to think that you can map any particular rating system to a 70% average just because one rating system uses it.

[Afgncaap5]

Instead of 'beauty' as such, I would likely go with some 'force of appearance'.


So with high Cha, - whatever senses you appear to the creatures around you, you are able to make strong impression.

So, standard example in those threads - Atropal - won't appear beautiful to anyone, save some disturbingly weird mind of the universe, with it's 40-some charisma.

But it without doubt will have huge influence on minds. Mostly the emotions will be sheer madness, terror, despair, disgust, only powerful ones.

"Force of Appearance" may be a better descriptor than "Force of Personality" for Charisma in a lot of cases, actually. Or at least, it sort of adds to the concept of Force of Personality a bit. I'll probably use that at some point.

[Cruiser1]

"Force of Appearance" may be a better descriptor than "Force of Personality" for Charisma in a lot of cases, actually.
I would adjust it further and say that Charisma is "Force of Perception", or getting others to perceive you the way that you want to be perceived. Some people want to be beautiful, and Charisma can make people perceive you as attractive (whether through confidence, manners, taking care of yourself, or all of the above). Others want to be perceived as dignified, intimidating, trustworthy, wise, which when effective are also functions of high CHA. In combat, Charisma could ideally be used to taunt an enemy so they attack you (e.g. the Paladin tank) or help make yourself seem unassuming so they don't attack you (e.g. the Sorcerer glass cannon). That's why the Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform (Acting) and related skills are CHA based, in that they allow you to be perceived the way you want to be.

[Sir Chuckles]

42 Charisma. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg)

Believing that they are connected is a common mistake. There are some arguments that could be that physical beauty and Charisma are loosely related, but, ultimately, we have an incredible amount of examples that would either state otherwise or make such a claim absurd.
For instance, the Succubus has 26 Charisma. The Uvuudaum (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44184_C5_Uvuudaum.jpg) has 46. The Dryad has 18. The Hagunemnon (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44190_C5_Hagunemnon.jpg) has 34.

Ultimately, the only impact that Charisma could squeeze itself onto beauty would be the ability to "act pretty". There are plenty of beautiful wallflowers and less than savory leaders.

[Kurald Galain]

This is just to get a rough idea on the general consensus of beauty v.s. charisma. I know there is a lot of factors, like a super ugly guy with a very dominating personality can have 20+ charisma, but generally, if you don't think too hard (i.e. min/max people skills, beauty, force of personality, etc.), how beautiful is a character based on his charisma?

They're really not related.

I've met both people with high appearance and low charisma, and with low appearance and high charisma. As an example of the former, one of my classmates was the proverbial ice queen: extremely beautiful, but distant and unlikeable. As an example of the latter, a friend of a friend is a guy who's shabby looking, fat, and with an ungroomed beard, who nevertheless is very popular with the girls.

[Duke of Urrel]

I once heard a suggestion that an "Attractiveness" score could be derived by taking the mean of a creature's Constitution and Charisma. I like that approach in general, though it's still not a flawless model (or at least not a model that works across all lines. A fearsome orc warlord who can keep his troops in line wouldn likely look ugly, or at least scary, to humans, but might be ruggedly attractive in orc culture. Heck, ruggedness might be all they care about.)

I have house rules along these lines, though they certainly aren't a "flawless model." And here they are:

Physical Attractiveness

If you are physically attractive to a NPC, I allow your Charisma-based skill checks to add a +4 attractiveness bonus with respect to this NPC.

Your Charisma score is only one of three factors that determine how physically attractive you are. The other two factors are your Constitution score and your youth. To determine your potential for physical attractiveness, or PPA, start with a base score of 10.

• Add your Charisma modifier.

• Add your Constitution modifier, but do not count any racial bonus or penalty to your Constitution score. Only a Constitution score that is above or below average for someone of your own species either adds to or subtracts from your PPA.

• If you are no longer a young adult, add -2 to your PPA if you are middle-aged, -4 if you are old, or -6 if you are venerable.

If you use a disguise (either a mundane disguise or a magical one) successfully to look like a young adult, you greatly improve your PPA, because when you look young, this number adds the Constitution modifier that you seem to have and no age penalty. However, no disguise, no matter how craftily made, can eliminate a Charisma penalty.

You can be physically attractive only to a sexually compatible creature. Usually, your opponent must be of your own species in order to be sexually compatible, but there are exceptions to this rule.

If you are of the right species and the right sex to be sexually compatible with a creature (or you appear to be because you are wearing a disguise), and if you interact with this creature for one minute (or it interacts with you), I make a secret ability check for your opponent that adds only your opponent’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. (High Wisdom bestows the willpower to resist infatuation, whereas high Charisma bestows elevated esthetic standards.) If this Charisma check scores less than the number that represents your PPA, your opponent feels physically attracted to you. This adds an attractiveness bonus of +4 to all of your Charisma-based skill checks with respect to this opponent, including Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks.

Usually, if someone feels physically attracted to you, it becomes obvious after a minute of interaction. However, a cautious or shy opponent who feels physically attracted to you may try to conceal this feeling. In this case, you must make a Sense Motive check against your opponent’s Bluff check in order to know the truth.

[Cruiser1]

As an example of the former, one of my classmates was the proverbial ice queen: extremely beautiful, but distant and unlikeable.
Being "distant and unlikeable" isn't necessarily low Charisma. High CHA is being able to impose your will or manipulate people into perceiving you and behaving a certain way. Low CHA is having a difference between what you want and how people actually perceive you. If your classmate was wanting to be perceived as aloof, then she could actually have high CHA. Perhaps she considers everybody else beneath her, and doesn't want to be approached. However, if she actually wants to be the belle of the ball and have people love her and give her attention, then the fact she actually comes across as distant and unlikeable instead does indicate low CHA.


As an example of the latter, a friend of a friend is a guy who's shabby looking, fat, and with an ungroomed beard, who nevertheless is very popular with the girls.
Similarly, being "very popular with the girls" isn't necessarily high Charisma. It is if he actually wants to be popular, and is able to make people behave the way he wants. However, it's potentially possible that he may just want to be left alone, and doesn't have the personality will to tell all the people socially feeding off of him like a bunch of leeches to go away, or to project an aura to keep them from approaching him in the first place. In such a case, he would actually have low CHA.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

To me high CHA is charm and thats all. Like the below average guy that can get laid anytime he speaks. That high charisma. I guess look wise you will just have to talk to the DM and idk get a special feat for it

[Knaight]

Being "distant and unlikeable" isn't necessarily low Charisma. High CHA is being able to impose your will or manipulate people into perceiving you and behaving a certain way. Low CHA is having a difference between what you want and how people actually perceive you. If your classmate was wanting to be perceived as aloof, then she could actually have high CHA. Perhaps she considers everybody else beneath her, and doesn't want to be approached. However, if she actually wants to be the belle of the ball and have people love her and give her attention, then the fact she actually comes across as distant and unlikeable instead does indicate low CHA.
That's a possibility, but for the most part it's not what people go for. Then there's the difference between unlikeable and aloof; where even people who do want to come off as aloof generally don't want to come of as unlikeable. Aloof and admired is one thing, aloof and detested is another entirely. Just with the information presented, being attractive but with a low charisma sounds entirely reasonable.


Similarly, being "very popular with the girls" isn't necessarily high Charisma. It is if he actually wants to be popular, and is able to make people behave the way he wants. However, it's potentially possible that he may just want to be left alone, and doesn't have the personality will to tell all the people socially feeding off of him like a bunch of leeches to go away, or to project an aura to keep them from approaching him in the first place. In such a case, he would actually have low CHA.
I'd put good odds on wanting to be socially involved here. It's a thing a lot of people want, and it's not like being unattractive and socially uninvolved is some great feat. Again, it isn't necessarily high Charisma, it's just vastly more likely that it is than it isn't.

[RoboEmperor]

I think you guys can answer the OP's question if you consider only females.
How cute/beautiful is a 14 CHA character? How about a 16 CHA?

Personally, I tank my PC's leadership and social skills and boost her beauty, so she can be an arrogant *****, yet everyone still likes her cause she's cute, so I agree with everyone here that CHA doesn't matter. You can fluff a character's beauty as you see fit.

However, I have met DMs who say no to attractive 8 CHA characters so, perhaps this is what the OP had in mind when he posted? Dealing with these DMs.

[OldTrees1]

I think you guys can answer the OP's question if you consider only females.
How cute/beautiful is a 14 CHA character? How about a 16 CHA?

Personally, I tank my PC's leadership and social skills and boost her beauty, so she can be an arrogant *****, yet everyone still likes her cause she's cute, so I agree with everyone here that CHA doesn't matter. You can fluff a character's beauty as you see fit.

However, I have met DMs who say no to attractive 8 CHA characters so, perhaps this is what the OP had in mind when he posted? Dealing with these DMs.

Only considering females does not change the answer.
If I do not overthink it, I rate the "looks" of characters with Cha 3-18 as 7/10 because "looks" are a tiny fraction of Beauty which is only part of Cha. Therefore I only notice changes in "looks" when I overthink it.

PS: An ugly person with 10/10 "looks" would not count as attractive. Maybe that factored into those DM's opinions.

[Kurald Galain]

Being "distant and unlikeable" isn't necessarily low Charisma. High CHA is being able to impose your will or manipulate people into perceiving you and behaving a certain way.
That's a nice theory, but it doesn't match up with what "charisma" means in either a dictionary or a D&D rulebook.



Similarly, being "very popular with the girls" isn't necessarily high Charisma. It is if he actually wants to be popular, and is able to make people behave the way he wants. However, it's potentially possible that he may just want to be left alone, and doesn't have the personality will to tell all the people socially feeding off of him like a bunch of leeches to go away, or to project an aura to keep them from approaching him in the first place. In such a case, he would actually have low CHA.
When I said he was "very popular with the girls" I didn't mean that people hang out to mooch off him, I meant that he gets lots of dates and one night stands (despite having a very low "appearance stat"). And I find it really silly to assume that he doesn't want any dates but he's got such a low charisma that he's getting the exact opposite of what he wants.

[Kurald Galain]

I think you guys can answer the OP's question if you consider only females.
How cute/beautiful is a 14 CHA character? How about a 16 CHA?
You're conflating terms here. A character with 16 cha is very attractive. However, "attractive" does not mean "beautiful". So indeed, a character with 16 cha can be beautiful or not, as the player decides.


However, I have met DMs who say no to attractive 8 CHA characters so,
Your DM should say no to attractive 8 cha characters because that's a contradiction. Your DM should not say no to beautiful 8 cha characters, though.



PS: An ugly person with 10/10 "looks" would not count as attractive. Maybe that factored into those DM's opinions.
How can an ugly person have 10/10 "looks"? That also strikes me as a contradiction.

[atemu1234]

How can an ugly person have 10/10 "looks"? That also strikes me as a contradiction.

Maybe they get a lot of attention based on their appearance?

[OldTrees1]

How can an ugly person have 10/10 "looks"? That also strikes me as a contradiction.

Beauty is the topic of a large subcategory of philosophy(Aesthetics). Visual appearance is merely the lowest(although most obvious) component.

Imagine someone that is HOT but
assaults the other senses
is a foolish moron
has a truly disgusting personality
and downright revolting morals

Such an individual would probably have a VERY low Charisma despite having a "smoking body".


However even with a complete view of Beauty, Charisma is more than just Beauty. A beautiful soul without the ability to influence their situation would have a lower Charisma than if they could.

[Solaris]

Liches get bonus charisma. Unless all people in DnD world have bone fetish, I really doubt charisma works like you think it does.

You've seen supermodels, right? D&D's not the only place that has a fetish for dem bones. Somebody must find the borderline-anorexic look attractive, 'cause otherwise that wouldn't be the supermodel look.

[Mystia]

Hmm, the easiest way to explain how I think it works is to explain how it works in my 3.5 table. In my group we use a simple system to determine the overall attractiveness of characters.
Someone's attractiveness is either 5 (average) + CHA modifier or 1d10 + CHA modifier (you can choose what to do on character creation, npcs are random), and as you've guessed, it ranges from 1-10, 1 being "eldritch horror" and 10 being "a god". I feel like this system is fairly efficient, because while Charisma does help to boost how attractive someone seems to others, it does not necessarily define how beautiful said person is. Just like IRL, you can have someone heavenly beautiful be so... bland that she/he ends up being unattractive, and someone with plain looks being perceived as more attractive because he/she knows how to be appealing and such.
Of course, the issue of monsters with high CHA is still present, but that simply translates as you appreciating that thing's looks while not necessarily saying that you find it attractive. I, for one, wouldn't hesitate to say that dragons are majestic beings, while not necessarily saying it in, erm, that way. But then again, there is indeed an awfully huge number of half-dragons...

[goto124]

I like this thread. I think it has 20 Charisma.

[Red Fel]

Other people have mentioned the Intimidate skill in passing. I think this bears repeating, for one fairly simple reason.

Physically attractive creatures are not inherently intimidating.1 They can become intimidating, based upon circumstances. For example, there are plenty of physically attractive and intimidating villains; the two are not mutually exclusive, but neither are they causally linked.

By contrast? Excessive (http://cdn.i24news.tv/upload/image/alien%20%281%29.jpg) hideousness (http://www.texaschainsawmassacre.net/Sequels/Remake/Photos/Leatherface2004.jpg) can be (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Freddy_Krueger.JPG) incredibly (http://non-productive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/nosferatu-1922.jpg) intimidating (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Frankenstein%27s_monster_%28Boris_Karloff%29.jpg).

If we assume that physical attractiveness adds to Cha and ugliness detracts, then why are some of the most hideous creatures imaginable so capable of using Intimidate?

Think about it. You're faced with this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44190_C5_Hagunemnon.jpg) and with this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG101.jpg). Who's more intimidating?

As others have mentioned, Charisma is less - or not only - your physical attractiveness or unattractiveness, and more your ability to impose your will upon the people and world around you. A function of that is using your appearance, be it beautiful or ugly. It's why we have concepts like "inhuman beauty" or the uncanny valley; the idea that even though something looks wrong, it still appeals to us, or even if it looks almost perfect, there's something creepily off about it. An ugly creature that knows how to use its ugliness to get what it wants is Charismatic, as is a beautiful creature who does likewise.

Because Charisma is your ability to exercise and impose your will on others, it is the quality of a leader, that certain presence that draws others to you. That's why people are drawn to the grizzled vet with scars and no formal tactical training; he may be crude, ugly, and ignorant, but something about him just makes you feel like he's someone to whom you need to listen.

That's Charisma. It's not appearance, manners, witty repartee or flirtation, although these are all tools of Charisma. It's the personality, the sheer, weaponized force of will that makes things take notice when you want them to.2

1 Unless you have poor self-image and are trying to approach one romantically. I was a teenager once.
2 Or ignore you when you want them to. Charisma is great like that.

[Judge_Worm]

Putting aside the rest of the post, this doesn't really work. A C is (nominally) average because the system is deliberately slanted for average work to get a 70-80%. There's no reason to think that 70% figure applies elsewhere. Even in school systems that use a system other than A-F (there are a lot of 0-10 or 0-20 systems), the 70% is hardly a constant. By percentile that 70% is well above average. There's no reason to think that you can map any particular rating system to a 70% average just because one rating system uses it.

I would like to add, human IQ is based on an average of 100.


Also, does this mean beauty is in the eye of a beholder (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Beholder)?

[Knaight]

I think you guys can answer the OP's question if you consider only females.
How cute/beautiful is a 14 CHA character? How about a 16 CHA?


This thread already has an example of someone who is beautiful but low charisma. This doesn't narrow things down at all. I can think of several people who are very much conventionally attractive, and not exactly charismatic at all. I can think of several people who are very charismatic, and not particularly attractive. This doesn't somehow change if I restrict the grouping by gender.

[Psyren]

They're almost uncorrelated. I say "almost" because examples of conventionally attractive creatures with low Cha are rare - artists tend to, consciously or unconsciously, add "ugly" to creatures if the style guide tells them they'll have low Cha, or be a typically low-Cha type, like a monstrous humanoid.

Having said that, there are examples in both directions where Cha does not correspond to attractiveness. The "ugly with high Cha" examples abound (just look at the Atropal, with its 42 Charisma (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg)) but the low-Cha yet conventionally attractive examples are a bit harder to find. They are there though:

9 Charisma (http://i.imgur.com/HjCDsd6.jpg)
10 Charisma (http://i.imgur.com/2jocU1I.jpg)
11 Charisma (http://i.imgur.com/cavo04l.png)
13 Charisma (http://i.imgur.com/aoCXIl.png)

Actually, that last one raises an interesting point - in addition to "beauty" we have other forms of physical endearment, like "cuteness." A lot of animals fall into that category (particularly babies), but they have notoriously low Charisma. Are they physically unappealing?

[Red Fel]

Actually, that last one raises an interesting point - in addition to "beauty" we have other forms of physical endearment, like "cuteness." A lot of animals fall into that category (particularly babies), but they have notoriously low Charisma. Are they physically unappealing?

And then we have Ugly-Cute (see Fig. A (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33800000/Brain-Gremlin-gremlins-33863131-900-599.jpg)). Where does that even fall?

[Psyren]

And then we have Ugly-Cute (see Fig. A (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33800000/Brain-Gremlin-gremlins-33863131-900-599.jpg)). Where does that even fall?

I don't find that cute at all *barfs*

[Red Fel]

I don't find that cute at all *barfs*

Just wait until he goes into his musical number (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m-GdmYc7RA).

See what I mean? Charisma. Also, surprisingly good pitch and elocution.

[Knaight]

Actually, that last one raises an interesting point - in addition to "beauty" we have other forms of physical endearment, like "cuteness." A lot of animals fall into that category (particularly babies), but they have notoriously low Charisma. Are they physically unappealing?
This is a pretty good point. Corgis are generally pretty freaking cute, but they aren't exactly charismatic. Consider the key Charisma social skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate. The attention getting powers might be stretched to fit diplomacy, but bluff isn't happening. They're smart animals, but nobody buys the "that couch was chewed up when I got here" routine. Intimidate? Just no. They aren't animals with any real presence, they can be easily ignored if there's reason to, so on and so forth.

Now, take a rhinoceros. They aren't cute, they aren't beautiful. There is a real force of appearance there, and they can command attention just fine.

[OldTrees1]

And then we have Ugly-Cute (see Fig. A (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33800000/Brain-Gremlin-gremlins-33863131-900-599.jpg)). Where does that even fall?

I believe that is an example of half the visual characteristics being ugly and half being things we are programmed to consider cute/beautiful(large ears/eyes, small, ...). Those factors would cancel out a bit for determining a "looks" score.

However once the musical number starts we see non visual characteristics that show he has much more Charisma than "looks".

[Vhaidara]

For Attractiveness, my group went with rolling 1d20+Cha mod at character creation.

Led to some funnies when the sorcerer crit on it. And the dwarf crit failed.