GalCiv 3 - So, how is it so far?

[Cikomyr]

I just purchased the game.. because it was on sale on Steam (50% off until tomorrow!!), but to be honest, I don't know how good it is supposed to be. I know I loved the previous GalCivs, and I was willing to pay for the game solely based on Stardock's reputation for 4x Spesh Strategy..

But just wanted to ask some people who actually played the game how it is so far?

[warty goblin]

So I've been messing around with it this weekend, and been having plenty of fun. It's obviously not done, don't get me wrong; there's a lot of greyed out UI buttons and some weird text box artifacts, and I get the distinct sense that the AI isn't firing on all cylinders yet. The Drengin just declared war on me for instance, which I'm sure will lead to many thrilling battles, just as soon as we build ships that can actually reach one another. And I figure out where they are. But the galaxies are full of cool new things like black holes and nebulae, planet development's a lot better (adjacency bonuses!) and there's fun new resources to mine. I don't know what they do yet, but I can mine them, and sometimes that's enough.

And it's got the most important thing running just fine; the new and improved ship designer. GalCiv II already had the best ship designer in my opinion, and this one's a great improvement on that. Needs more parts - obviously - but it's a lot more flexible and powerful. I mean all my ships still come out looking like stuff from Babylon 5, but that's probably just me.

[factotum]

Got a query about this game: I know it's 64-bit only, which is fine, because I have a 64-bit system. However, it also lists the minimum supported version of Windows as W7, whereas I have Vista. Does anyone know if it actually works on Vista? I didn't think there were enough differences between the two OSes to be significant (people often describe W7 as Vista SP2), but there's at least one other game (Starpoint Gemini 2) which reckons it doesn't work properly on Vista yet I was able to run it fine.

[Cikomyr]

Played it a bit before my laptop overheated (ill need to tune down the settinf, darn) and i gotta say it lookes pretty fun..

I had to divert a colony ship en route to a Class 13 world when found a Class 21 on my freakkin' doorstep!!!

I love how Shipyards are now their own thing.

I like the specialization techs. Reminiscent of Beyond Earth's leaf techs

[Flickerdart]

Got a query about this game: I know it's 64-bit only, which is fine, because I have a 64-bit system. However, it also lists the minimum supported version of Windows as W7, whereas I have Vista. Does anyone know if it actually works on Vista? I didn't think there were enough differences between the two OSes to be significant (people often describe W7 as Vista SP2), but there's at least one other game (Starpoint Gemini 2) which reckons it doesn't work properly on Vista yet I was able to run it fine.
"Supported" means that they tested it on that system and fixed any bugs that appeared. It will probably still run on Vista, but if there are platform-specific bugs that crop up, you're on your own.

And what are you doing on Vista, anyway? Upgrading to 7 or 8 isn't that expensive anymore, and then you'll get a free ride to W10.

[factotum]

Upgrading to 7 or 8 isn't that expensive anymore, and then you'll get a free ride to W10.

I haven't bought any sort of upgrade to my PC (whether hardware or OS) in more than four years because of lack of money. I probably won't even be buying GalCiv 3 until it goes on some sort of sale.

[Cikomyr]

I haven't bought any sort of upgrade to my PC (whether hardware or OS) in more than four years because of lack of money. I probably won't even be buying GalCiv 3 until it goes on some sort of sale.

You are in bad luck. It was on 50% dicsount all week-end. This why i bought it.

[factotum]

Maybe I should have specified "until it goes on some sort of sale after it's released"? As I said in another thread, I don't *do* early access.

[Cikomyr]

Maybe I should have specified "until it goes on some sort of sale after it's released"? As I said in another thread, I don't *do* early access.

Geez. Sorry for not researching your entire post history before replying.

Man, what an ******* i am.

[DigoDragon]

Neat stuff. I'd like to know if combat has an actual interactive component, so i'll be watching for updates.

[warty goblin]

Neat stuff. I'd like to know if combat has an actual interactive component, so i'll be watching for updates.

Thankfully it does not. I believe there will be ways to set ship behavior to some degree before battle, but it's not in there yet so far as I can tell.

[DigoDragon]

Thankfully it does not. I believe there will be ways to set ship behavior to some degree before battle, but it's not in there yet so far as I can tell.

I feel that not having any interaction with the combat was a missing component of GalCiv2. It doesn't have to be anything micromanaged like MOO2 was. Maybe something like giving orders before the combat begins on priority targets and then let it play out.

[warty goblin]

I feel that not having any interaction with the combat was a missing component of GalCiv2. It doesn't have to be anything micromanaged like MOO2 was. Maybe something like giving orders before the combat begins on priority targets and then let it play out.

I've always seen Gal Civ as one of my 'strategy hat' games, which means my experience is improved by not having tactical stuff. In no small part because in games like this, becoming proficient at the tactical layer can do a lot to (unfairly) ameliorate strategic blunders, while playing the strategy layer well renders the tactical nothing more than a lengthy minimization of damage taken.

(I also have 'tactics hat' games, wherein I want to do tactics and nothing but tactics. Also the rare game that manages the wardrobe transition gracefully. )

[Cikomyr]

I have to agree with you there. Although, id like to have some.sort of "Battle Doctrine" available in my fleet management. Something to tweak behaviour of my spaceships in a generic way, instead of being able to just abuse poor AI.

Kind of like Endless Space, but less precise.

[Aotrs Commander]

I've always seen Gal Civ as one of my 'strategy hat' games, which means my experience is improved by not having tactical stuff. In no small part because in games like this, becoming proficient at the tactical layer can do a lot to (unfairly) ameliorate strategic blunders, while playing the strategy layer well renders the tactical nothing more than a lengthy minimization of damage taken.

(I also have 'tactics hat' games, wherein I want to do tactics and nothing but tactics. Also the rare game that manages the wardrobe transition gracefully. )

My problem with GalCiv is the complete lack of tactical... anything... renders the ship generation system largely pointless. It doesn't... DO anything. You spend all those hours making starships (well, actually you don't becaue pointless) and there's no real gain to it. In GalCivII, at any rate, turned out, you may as well just stick your ship with as many guns as possible and damn the defences (after all, that's what the virtuakly impossible to bet scenario enemies did...) If I'm going to be generating a starship and outfitting it, I expect something more out of it than just a set of numbers and that's basically all GalCiv (at least 1 and 2) gives you. Th starship battles aren't even very interesting. The game is redeemed somewhat by everything else, but I still found that even Moo3 (let alone SotS 1 or 2) did the military side VASTLY better.

Also, I found in both GalCivs, my most lasting memory is spending far too much time fracking about having to build space stations with an endless stream of constructors, only for them to be killed instantly wherever a fight started. Even with all the defensive upgrades.

[Cikomyr]

I kind of also have to agree that Starbases should be some sort of continuous Shipyard project instead of 30,000 constructors

[warty goblin]

My problem with GalCiv is the complete lack of tactical... anything... renders the ship generation system largely pointless. It doesn't... DO anything. You spend all those hours making starships (well, actually you don't becaue pointless) and there's no real gain to it. In GalCivII, at any rate, turned out, you may as well just stick your ship with as many guns as possible and damn the defences (after all, that's what the virtuakly impossible to bet scenario enemies did...) If I'm going to be generating a starship and outfitting it, I expect something more out of it than just a set of numbers and that's basically all GalCiv (at least 1 and 2) gives you. Th starship battles aren't even very interesting. The game is redeemed somewhat by everything else, but I still found that even Moo3 (let alone SotS 1 or 2) did the military side VASTLY better.

Also, I found in both GalCivs, my most lasting memory is spending far too much time fracking about having to build space stations with an endless stream of constructors, only for them to be killed instantly wherever a fight started. Even with all the defensive upgrades.

Personally I spend a lot of time messing about in the ship designer because I enjoy building spaceships. And in my experience a well designed ship makes a lot of difference; while delivering me from the vast tedium of having to fight the hundreds of individual encounters that make up any decent game on a large galaxy on the higher difficulties.

[factotum]

I agree with warty goblin about the starship construction, at least as far as it works in the earlier GalCiv games--the main point of it is to produce unique-looking ship designs rather than affect how they work tactically. Also, designing your ships so they can survive a fight brings benefits, because ships that survive level up and gain slightly in their stats, which is why I would never create a ship that was all guns and nothing else (unless it was some sort of one-off design intended for a specific purpose). I finished a GalCiv 2 game a couple of days ago where my enemies were all following the "all gun, no defence" approach in the mid-game, so I designed all my ships to have just enough defences to block their attacks and the rest into guns. Might mean I only had 2 attack on a medium warship, but that's still enough to kill an enemy with no defences when they can't hurt you in return!

[Aotrs Commander]

Personally I spend a lot of time messing about in the ship designer because I enjoy building spaceships. And in my experience a well designed ship makes a lot of difference; while delivering me from the vast tedium of having to fight the hundreds of individual encounters that make up any decent game on a large galaxy on the higher difficulties.


I agree with warty goblin about the starship construction, at least as far as it works in the earlier GalCiv games--the main point of it is to produce unique-looking ship designs rather than affect how they work tactically.

Which I find a bit pointless, myself, since I could (and DO) literally do that myself wherever I feel like it AND print them out AND play with them. I don't art for the sake of art, I art for the sake of a nice thing I can USE for something.

This is why I think SotS 1 and 2 (and Space Empire V to a lesser extent) are currently at the top of the pack. The former may not have the same level of detail on planet-building, but the starship element is vastly more meaningful (and if I'm playing In Space, the starship element is BY FAR the most important, otherwise why wouldn't I just play Civ?)




Also, designing your ships so they can survive a fight brings benefits, because ships that survive level up and gain slightly in their stats, which is why I would never create a ship that was all guns and nothing else (unless it was some sort of one-off design intended for a specific purpose). I finished a GalCiv 2 game a couple of days ago where my enemies were all following the "all gun, no defence" approach in the mid-game, so I designed all my ships to have just enough defences to block their attacks and the rest into guns. Might mean I only had 2 attack on a medium warship, but that's still enough to kill an enemy with no defences when they can't hurt you in return!

I found when I last played I basically never lost, since I killed all the enemy every time. (And the nearly-impossible-to-kill Dread Lords - that's their names - use that strategy too.) Because that's (according to wiki) in Dark Avatar onwards, because if you end with mutual destruction, the "strongest" (which is highest attack) ship wins. So you build ships with nothing but one weapon type and engines and your attirition is actually quite low. (Since the enemy's firepower is "wasted" since they'll kill you, but it doesn't count because everything is simultaneous, so only th "strongest" matters and they've wasted "strength" on defences.)

Which is what I mean about the combat being... Non-tactical and somewhat pointless, by the mid to late game, since "make biggest ship, add biggest weapons plus some engines, call it day" is like, the most no-brain way to optimise.

Gal Civ 1/2 actually managed to find a way to make starship combat boring, and that's more or less the highest sin I can think of. (And only redeemed because the rest of the game is pretty good. Except for space stations.)



Do we know if they've done anything about the moral choice system yet? I.e. made it more of an actual choice than "anything other than evil is basically a self-nerf (especially as you can just pay money to choose good in the end if you like?" That was another problem, I found: there was never a good reason to not take the Evil path, even if you wanted to be good eventually.



Basically, I think GalCiv 1/2's problem is that they were good (arguably the best) at what they were at the time... But they haven't aged very well looking back. If GalCiv 3 is basically the same with a slightly different tech tree and better graphics, I shan't bother. It needs to make some major strides to bring it up to the level of the games that have come out since.

(Actually, y'know, it occurs to be that I've been forgetting Empire At War, which, while lacking a lot of customisation and being Star Wars, actually handled starship combat well and ground combat pretty much the best I've seen in a roughly 4X.)

[Cikomyr]

I have to agree that SotS leaves most 4x games in the dust when it comes to starship design and combat. Hell, id like to be able to further develop it so we could customize armor, speed, manoeuvrability, etc.. Even further.

A game where weapon placement on your ships is paramount was a helluvafun to play with. You ended up with a relatively diversified starfleet, although i would have preferred the game promoted more starship diversity. Destroyers became.useless the moment you had cruisers. Almost the same with Dreadnought, but only because they are prohibitively expensive to build, maintain. Plus, by the time you got DN, your main battlefleet probably consisted of at least 200 cruisers and you cant just scrap those overnight.

I had an idea as to how promote starship diversity in a fleet..

[factotum]

I think I own SotS, but I could never get into it for some reason? Was that the game where unkillable pirate fleets invaded and trashed all your stuff quite early on, or am I confusing it with Sins of a Solar Empire?

[Cikomyr]

That is Sins of a Solar Empire.

Sword of the Stars had the insect machines known as Silicoids (http://swordofthestars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Silicoid). A real plague in the early game (albeit a slow moving one) but one that, if you developped appropriate weaponry (like Point Defense or Light Guns) became quickly trivial to defeat.

But if you left a nest untouched for too long, you might end up with a completely infected sector on your hand.. Hmm.. Note to self: mod SotS to make midgame Silicoids more aggressive in their expansions...

Anyway. I heartily recommend you the game (at least the original one with all expansions. Never really gave a chance to 2), it still holds up as my favourite Space 4X, and the shipdesign portion has truly hidden depth (which, hilariously, is more likely to screw you in the early game portion with the Destroyers than in the late game, where you have cruisers with a dozen gun emplacement and you can afford not to know what you are doing.

[DigoDragon]

I kind of also have to agree that Starbases should be some sort of continuous Shipyard project instead of 30,000 constructors

Maybe model it in a similar fashion of the asteroid mining bases? You build a mining base and then it continuously streams resources to the planet you designate. For starbases, when you build one you designate a planet to stream resources automatically toward it for maintenance and upgrades. That way you don't have to keep micromanaging construction of those 30,000 constructors.

Downside is that if your planet is far from the starbase it takes longer to stream resources to it and you get deminished returns (like with asteroid mining bases). But that could be a good thing because I get annoyed when a non-aggressive AI spams starbases in my home sector for no real reason other than to slow the game down. :smalltongue:


I have to agree with you there. Although, id like to have some.sort of "Battle Doctrine" available in my fleet management. Something to tweak behaviour of my spaceships in a generic way, instead of being able to just abuse poor AI.

Yes please. I've had fleet battles where I got six ships with armor going up against a fleet using mass drivers, but the enemy has one ship using missiles. I'd like some kind of option to tell my ships to target the missile frigate first. :)

[warty goblin]

I've never had that much of a problem with the pirates in Sins. You just need to know roughly which direction they'll be coming from. By the first attack you should have a fairly decent fleet that can beat them off. You'll lose a couple of frigates, but frigates are replaceable.

Never been able to get into the Sword of the Stars games. But turn based strategic/real time tactical battle games have never really worked for me. I find the hat change disruptive to getting in the groove.

[factotum]

I have both Sins and Sword--if Sins is the one with the pirates, I might give SotS another go to see if I can figure out why I never got into it.

Back on topic, you can actually already do your idea in GalCiv2, DigoDragon, it just needs a little bit of micro to get it set up. Namely, set up the starbase so it will auto-upgrade when a constructor arrives, then set the rally point for ships built at a nearby planet to that starbase and start pumping out constructors. The main issue is what happens when you either want to stop building constructors and build something else, or you run out of new modules to build on the starbase--you tend to end up with ugly piles of ships in the wrong place whichever happens.

[Cikomyr]

I have both Sins and Sword--if Sins is the one with the pirates, I might give SotS another go to see if I can figure out why I never got into it.



Do not hesitate to ask questions about SotS. Seriously, there are a few.concepts that might pass by you and make the experience frustrating if you arent aware of the mechanic.

Especially when it comes to colonisation. Planetary management might look simplistic, but you HAVE to know how it works or its extremely easy to bankrupt yourself.

Same with trade. You might be lost if you miss on it, and trade should represent about 2/3 of your income mid-game

[Aotrs Commander]

SotS 2 has a very useful in-game chat feature, which is good because Paradox are pretty terrible at documentation. I had to use it quite a lot myself to start with.

For SotS 1, it's also worth tracking down the tech tech tree (1.7.2 is the final version), as that's very helpful too. (And the SotS 1 wikia is a bit more comprehensive, too.)



(Also, never start as the Zuul (in SotS 1) or the Sulka horde or the Loa (SotS 2), since they are more... unique in playstyle and you need some knowledge of how to play to get the most out of them. Humans, Hivers, Tarka or Liir are the best to start with.)

[Cikomyr]

By the way. For any SotS veterans, I heartily recommend the ACM mod. Its really awesome on multiple level, including esthetics.

Also, tech dev is WAY slower. And for the love of God disable "police ships", or the AI will cheat you badly.

[DigoDragon]

you can actually already do your idea in GalCiv2, DigoDragon, it just needs a little bit of micro to get it set up. Namely, set up the starbase so it will auto-upgrade when a constructor arrives, then set the rally point for ships built at a nearby planet to that starbase and start pumping out constructors. The main issue is what happens when you either want to stop building constructors and build something else, or you run out of new modules to build on the starbase--you tend to end up with ugly piles of ships in the wrong place whichever happens.

I do that already, but the main issue you point out is exactly the issue I dislike with the setup. A large cause of that is being limited to one construction module per Constructor ship. Thankfully GalCiv3 seemed to have corrected that, so that I only need to build a handful of ships rather than long freight-way trails that requires defending when enemy fleets arrive. There is a reason I nickname them Roach Lanes. :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

I remember spreading sleeper ships all over the galaxy when they were outdated. Never in big concentration. Turned quite useful when so-called friends declared war upon me. I raided 3/4 of their trade lanes within 3 turns

[factotum]

OK, I think I'm beginning to remember why I didn't get into SotS first time around--the tutorial is *terrible*. A bunch of text screens that don't teach you half the concepts you need, and I'm guessing the galaxy it starts you in is still randomly generated, so I end up (playing human) in a situation where all the worlds accessible via node lines from my starting world are too far for the ships I have at the start of the game? So, I either plot a sublight course which will take 50+ turns, or I have to figure out how to increase the range of my ships (which I did--just research pulsed fission drives).

Of course, I can't upgrade any existing ships (which is annoying), so the ships the tutorial commanded me to build are largely useless--not much point in having a coloniser which can't reach any nearby systems!

Going to keep going, but I hope they improved that tutorial in SotS 2, it really doesn't give you a good first impression of the game.

[Cikomyr]

Tutorial is terrible. Plus, humans are... Weird to play with. Probably 3rd weirdest race to try out, after the Zuul and the Hivers.

You should try the Tarkas. Their hyperdrive is simplest to understand.

If you have any question, dont hesitate. The game is really good under that bad first impression.

[Aotrs Commander]

OK, I think I'm beginning to remember why I didn't get into SotS first time around--the tutorial is *terrible*. A bunch of text screens that don't teach you half the concepts you need, and I'm guessing the galaxy it starts you in is still randomly generated, so I end up (playing human) in a situation where all the worlds accessible via node lines from my starting world are too far for the ships I have at the start of the game? So, I either plot a sublight course which will take 50+ turns, or I have to figure out how to increase the range of my ships (which I did--just research pulsed fission drives).

Of course, I can't upgrade any existing ships (which is annoying), so the ships the tutorial commanded me to build are largely useless--not much point in having a coloniser which can't reach any nearby systems!

Going to keep going, but I hope they improved that tutorial in SotS 2, it really doesn't give you a good first impression of the game.

The SotS wiki (http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page)is your friend.

A very brief Aotrs Guide to SotS:

I forget what the tutorial tells you to do, but it's probably pretty rubbish. I start out by firstly scrapping and replacing all the designs you start with (even it it's just to replace the mass drivers with lasers) - but it is worth replacing all those starting five. My typical starting fleet is something like two armour or extended range, two tankers and two colony ships.

If (when human) you find yourself in a starting position where there are no warplines within easy reach... Reload. Like all random start games, sometimes the game gives you a crap start (or "usually" in the case of Civ or Beyond Earth...) That's a pretty rare occurance, though (I just went in to do a cold start with humans and there were two within two turns and two way out of reach) but it'll cripple your starting deployment times.

(Matters less with Hivers, since you want to put a Gate everywhere anyway, and once there's a gate down, then huzzah, you can get anywhere instantly. Hivers are I think my favourite race for that reason. They are actually one of the better ones to start with actually. (I started with humans myself, though, which is why I didn't recommend against it. One of the nice thinsg about SotS is the humans AREN'T the genericist, defaulty-ist race (that's argaubly the Tarka!))



Build Tankers. You need to get into the habit of putting at least two tankers with every fleet. You WILL run out of fuel if you don't. Later on (when you have cruisers), supplement them with repair and salvage vessels (again, I use at least two). You'll start to replace them with refinery ships later on (and at the antimatter level, you replace them with a Support dreadnought that does everything).

Bear in mind that, the bigger your fleet is than the enemy's, the more CP you get. You should always try to build a fleet big enough to be more than out can deploy at once, so that a) your vulnerable support ships aren't at risk, b) you have at least one or more spare command ships (because even on easy, the enemy can be smart enough to target those and you should be doingthe same) and c) reinforcements. Note that in battle, you can use the ship list on the left to move the position of your ship in the reinforcement list.

I would start with tech like Waldos. The communications tech tree should be an early priority since a) FTL economics gives you frieghters, which is where your money will come from, b) command sections mean you can set your fleet deployment up properly (and have more command points) and c) allow you to do useful things like start issuing orders in the sensors screen!

VRF technology should be another one to stop by early on, as it is the quickest way to unlock point defense weapons. (If you don't it means waiting until you get Fusion tech and being luck enough to have a salvage/reapir ship take the tech from an enemy, or getting interceptor missiles or point defence phasers at anti-matter. I consider it just about the most important random tech there is.)

Don't colonise willy-nilly - look at the cost, and don't colonise anything expensive at the start.

When you colonise a planet, set the sliders to max out infrastructure first, rather than let it try to terraform or build ships at the same time. Save the expensive planets for when you can afford it (or when you can capture them off the enemy!)

(Advanced technique - set the planet to overharvest until the infrastruture is built. You'll burn some resources, but it'll happen much quicker. Resources can be recouped, though, asteroid en****ers (thought they can be fatal to the planet) to by destroying enemy ships in the system - or by mining another planet and bringing the resources in.)

That should at least give you somewhere to start from to play around.

But if in doubt, ask!



The tutorial in SotS 2 is equally bad. Paradox, as I said, SUCK at documentation. However, the in-game chat in a thing, so you can use that to ask all the other people playing it, because they will all have had to learn mostly the same way...

SotS 2 is not better than SotS 1, by the by - it's mostly just different; some areas are better, other are not. They both have their merits and flaws.

[Cikomyr]

He is not kidding when it comes to colonization. Seriously.

The formula for industrial strenght of any planet is the sum of two factors:

- Population size
- ressource x infrastructure

Thing is, population will usually be the largest determinator, since you have to build your infrastructure. Population will grow exponentially, but based on the terraforming quality of your planet. A good way of looking at the quality of planet is to measure the "colonization cost", which represent the money you will have to pay PER TURN to sustain a population on a hostile planet. Yes. PER TURN.

So what does it mean, at the end? In means low-cost planets will have a pretty high natural population growth, which will give you further industrial power to further terraform the planet and build its infrastructure. So "terraforming difficulties" is something that will genuinely give you exponentially worse and worse problems, the harsher the world you colonize.

I usually try to grab all the 15k and less at the beginning. I know that they will become relatively helpful within 30 turns or so, especially if i focus on terraforming.

However, there is something you should know:

1- you can deploy colony ships to planets you already colonized. Basically causing an influx of immigrants that will jump-start population growth. With Hivers (also my favourite race) i usually deploy nearly 20+ colony ships to planets in order to speed things up. Even more for costly biome planets, since their natural pop growth is so poor, you practically HAVE to force-feed them to help their industrial power.
2- colony ships do not bring ONLY population. Destroyer colony ships also bring infrastructure, which further boost your industrial power (although, marginally so). Do consult this wiki page (http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Colonizer_Section)

Even better. When you get to Fusion and Cruiser tech, the Transfer Biome technology allow you to build Cruiser colony ships, which actually will give a terraforming bonus to the colonized planet. Obligatory Link (http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Biome_Colonizer_Section).

Please note that i gave the "cost" as a rule of thumb to assess what is a planet quality. The real number is usually between 0 and 1200, with 0 being exactly fit for your specie while 1000 is probably worth about 120,000k$/turn of maintenance. So landing 5 biome ships that each give +25 terraforming on a planet quality of 500 will make quite a difference.

[Aotrs Commander]

I tend to colonise in multiples of biome colonisers later in the game usualy something like six to ten or something.

[Cikomyr]

Hmm... In my current (GalCiv3) game, I discovered a precursor Manufacturing Ring right at the tri-border between my territories, the Yor and 1 other specie I can't remember.

I suppose wrestling control of the thing ASAP is going to be a priority...