5e Druid OP?

[Tonden Ockay]

Isn't Druid shape changing at higher level Over Powered?

What is your thoughts on this?

[Iolo Morganwg]

I don't think so. At max it's CR 6. If your campaign makes it to level 20, then maybe.

[ProphetSword]

There are plenty of threads about this (on more forums than I care to count). The druid gets a slight burst from it at low levels, but then it tends to even out around level 5 or so and become less important until probably 20th level (and even then, it depends on the build, whether the druid multiclassed, etc).

Can you be more specific about why you think it's OP?

[JAL_1138]

There's a debate about it for Moon Druids at very high level, but for the most part--and for the levels most campaigns will happen at--they're fine. Don't worry about it.

One of the forum's biggest cans of worms, it depends on interpretation of Wild Shape and reversion. It can be on the broken end at level 20 and maybe a couple just below 20 (AFB, forget when the problem kicks in) for Moon Druids if you're of the camp that doesn't think that Wild Shape requires you to revert to human before taking a new form and expending a use of Wild Shape to extend current form doesn't replenish the form's HP. If you're in that camp it makes them nearly Fighter-proof if said Fighter is completely without magic weapons or party support--but even if so, they're extremely susceptible to other spellcasters with Power Word: Kill (again depending on interpretation and rules-lawyery shenanigans, but the developers say they are) which can potentially insta-gib them. Monsters can still wreck them, too. Land druids stay fairly balanced with either interpretation of Wild Shape.

Edit: ProphetSword is a Shadow Monk apparently :smalltongue:

[Tonden Ockay]

There are plenty of threads about this (on more forums than I care to count). The druid gets a slight burst from it at low levels, but then it tends to even out around level 5 or so and become less important until probably 20th level (and even then, it depends on the build, whether the druid multiclassed, etc).

Can you be more specific about why you think it's OP?

Shape changing

Keep shape changing when HPs get low to keep from dying.

[JAL_1138]

Their shapechange doesn't heal the druid's base human (or other PC race) form. Damage beyond what it takes to drop the animal form to 0 also carries over to the druid's human form. Healing that damage will strip them of useful spells eventually, especially if you rule they have to revert to change to another shape (but even if you take the other position too). It can extend their lifespan several rounds, but it doesn't truly make them immortal. High-damage spells, spells that target things with low HP or HD like Power Word Kill (potential for an instagib there), tough monster attacks, sufficiently large groups of monsters, buffed melee attacks, and any kind of double-team (a Fighter and Rogue working together, for example) can punch right through it; they're limited to CR6 creatures they've seen before. There are also multiple things to target other than HP--spells and monster abilities that force saving throws against the druid's weak saves instead of just dealing damage.

Also remember they don't get unlimited use of Wild Shape for most of the entirety of the game, so it's nothing to even worry about until the very highest levels. With only a few uses at a time before that point, it gets burned through really fast.

Besides, at least they can't do 1000 points of damage with Creeping Doom like back in the old days anymore. :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

Would it affect their death saving throw if the damage they took when reverting back brought them to 0 or below?

[JAL_1138]

Would it affect their death saving throw if the damage they took when reverting back brought them to 0 or below?

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you're asking. The animal form dropping to zero does not in itself put them in death saves or count as a failed death save, they just revert. If there's so much carryover damage that it drops their true form to zero on top of that, my understanding is that yes, they'd be unconscious and in death saves like any other PC dropped to zero.

Edit: By default there is no "below" zero in 5e unless they are dropped to negative maxHP in one hit.

[Shining Wrath]

A key question is if conditions persist. Does poison persist when Wildshape reverts? Does confused? Does dead (which is different than zero HP, because at zero HP you aren't dead, you're rolling to stabilize)?

I rule that conditions persist. Other DMs may rule differently.

[MeeposFire]

One thing that I notice in these discussions but has not been outright brought to the table is the concept of power versus noticeable power. This will require some definitions.

By noticeable power what I mean is that generally speaking what people actually notice tend to be offensive power. You really notice really big damage numbers or high numbers of attacks. For one thing this usually makes encounters go quicker and it certainly makes you think you are more powerful.

High level druids may not have this. I say this because the crux of the argument for the over powerd druid is that he is so tough that he is very hard to kill due to THP resets. This is a potentially over powered problem but it may not be on its own an extremely noticeable problem. For instance being insanely tough is only noticeable if you spend all your time attacking the druid and the rest of the party is unable to deal with the enemy. Typicaly I think the battle would go druid takes a number of hits but the rest of the party kills all the enemies fairly quickly while the druid does fairly low damage as a beast so many times the other party members will seem more powerful because they have much greater offensive numbers.

As far as I can tell outside of the lower levels of druid (near and around 5th level) where the druids offensive power as a beast may be at their greatest I have not heard about beast forms being that great in terms of damage (from what I hear they are ok but not great).

Is druid offensive noticeably good or is it very average? If it is very average the party may not notice any power issues at higher levels because the spot light will usually fall on the heroes who deal the most damage since they tend to define teh spot light in the fight.

[Knaight]

Their shapechange doesn't heal the druid's base human (or other PC race) form. Damage beyond what it takes to drop the animal form to 0 also carries over to the druid's human form. Healing that damage will strip them of useful spells eventually, especially if you rule they have to revert to change to another shape (but even if you take the other position too). It can extend their lifespan several rounds, but it doesn't truly make them immortal. High-damage spells, spells that target things with low HP or HD like Power Word Kill (potential for an instagib there), tough monster attacks, sufficiently large groups of monsters, buffed melee attacks, and any kind of double-team (a Fighter and Rogue working together, for example) can punch right through it; they're limited to CR6 creatures they've seen before.

That doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. They're far from unbeatable, but being directly vulnerable to a handful of specialized spells (which other classes are also just as vulnerable to) while also having a bunch of useful spells, having the defensive power of shapechange, and other things makes druids very powerful. Level 20 moon druids are an exceptional case, but even short of the druids are pretty ridiculous. It's nowhere near as bad as 3e was, but druids could still probably be toned down a bit at higher levels.

[calebrus]

Isn't Druid shape changing at higher level Over Powered?

What is your thoughts on this?

By the time a druid's wild shape ability gets to the point where the theorycrafting munchkins assume he's invincible.... he's still not invincible.
None of his possible beast forms have more than 100 hp. And by teh time he can change at will, enemies may very well have PWK and the like. Beast forms are supremely susceptible to effects which rely on the targets hp, because beasts have crap hp.
Power word kill = one dead moon druid, whether he's in beast shape or not.
And he doesn't suddenly revert to humainoid form with full hit points. He reverts to a dead druid, because dead is dead.

[Knaight]

By the time a druid's wild shape ability gets to the point where the theorycrafting munchkins assume he's invincible.... he's still not invincible.

There's still a huge gap between overpowered and invincible. Nobody in this thread is claiming invincibility (though level 20 moon druids do have a pretty disgusting level of resistance against conventional non-magical assault). Wildshape still represents a very powerful defense, just an imperfect one with some weaknesses. It's accompanied by other class features, some pretty good spells, etc.

[calebrus]

There's still a huge gap between overpowered and invincible.

Land druids are powerful.
Moon druids are very powerful at very early levels, moderately powerful from early to late, and very powerful again in very late levels.
At no point are they OP. Very early and very late they skirt the line, but they never cross it.

And since the vast majority of games don't even go that high, all this means is that a moon druid has less chance of dying in the early levels than most characters (but only slightly so at that).

[Kryx]

At no point are they OP. Very early and very late they skirt the line, but they never cross it.
This is entirely opinion. imo 2-4 the moon druid is too strong and I, personally, delay the progression slightly:

Moon Druid has its wildshape progression delayed by 1 step. At level 2 their maximum CR is ½. At 4 it is CR 1, and 6+ is CR 2 as is the normal.

[JAL_1138]

That doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. They're far from unbeatable, but being directly vulnerable to a handful of specialized spells (which other classes are also just as vulnerable to) while also having a bunch of useful spells, having the defensive power of shapechange, and other things makes druids very powerful. Level 20 moon druids are an exceptional case, but even short of the druids are pretty ridiculous. It's nowhere near as bad as 3e was, but druids could still probably be toned down a bit at higher levels.

OP's concern was with Wild Shape particularly, using it to replenish HP ad infinitum, so the HP from constantly shifting to new forms was all I addressed. It's a potent ability but it's not the end of the world, and they don't start doing it ad infinitum until max level.

5e's balance isn't perfect by a long shot, and in an ideal world all the fullcasters would get a bit of a nerf over what they are now, and there are some problem spells that definitely need fixed--but they're closer to balanced than they used to be in 2e or 3e in a lot of ways. There are a lot fewer of those problem spells, you can cast fewer of them per day, and most spells have taken a major nerf since the days of Creeping Doom and others like it.

[ProphetSword]

20th level moon druid encounters a 20th level wizard. The moon druid shifts into the shape of a beast and moves to engage the wizard. The wizard responds by casting Wish and sending the moon druid deep into the heart of a lava-filled volcano. He says: "Whew! Good thing I got rid of that OP druid!"

[Kryx]

20th level moon druid encounters a 20th level wizard. The moon druid shifts into the shape of a beast and moves to engage the wizard. The wizard responds by casting Wish and sending the moon druid deep into the heart of a lava-filled volcano. He says: "Whew! Good thing I got rid of that OP druid!"
I love when people ignore any balance issues beyond ~12 because "spells OP".

Not only that, a spell that is entirely dependent on DM Fiat.

[JAL_1138]

I love when people ignore any balance issues beyond ~12 because "spells OP".

Not only that, a spell that is entirely dependent on DM Fiat.

Wizard casts one of the teleport spells. Wizard casts PWK and druid's dead because s/he was Wild Shaped and didn't have the HP to resist it. Wizard turns into (whichever kind of Ancient Dragon is of the highest allowable CR) and deals enough damage per round to shred through the druid's Wild Shape HP buffer. Wizard with the right class feature/feats casts a damage cantrip and follows up with Sleep. Necromancer raises skeletons and has a bucketload of them attack with arrows at once.

Fighter double-teams with a Rogue. Fighter chews through most/all Wild Shape HP and Rogue rips the druid's kidneys out with a Sneak Attack. This could take a couple rounds longer than PWK but it'll work fine.

[Kryx]

Wizard casts one of the teleport spells. Wizard casts PWK and druid's dead because s/he was Wild Shaped and didn't have the HP to resist it. Wizard turns into (whichever kind of Ancient Dragon is of the highest allowable CR) and deals enough damage per round to shred through the druid's Wild Shape HP buffer. Wizard with the right class feature/feats casts a damage cantrip and follows up with Sleep. Necromancer raises skeletons and has a bucketload of them attack with arrows at once.

Fighter double-teams with a Rogue. Fighter chews through most/all Wild Shape HP and Rogue rips the druid's kidneys out with a Sneak Attack. This could take a couple rounds longer than PWK but it'll work fine.
And you could follow the exact same process with every class.. It proves nothing.

Also, PvP is not a normal play mode that should be taken into consideration when balancing.

[Fwiffo86]

20th level moon druid encounters a 20th level wizard. The moon druid shifts into the shape of a beast and moves to engage the wizard. The wizard responds by casting Wish and sending the moon druid deep into the heart of a lava-filled volcano. He says: "Whew! Good thing I got rid of that OP druid!"

Just to point out...

*druid shapeshifts into a fire elemental*

[Tonden Ockay]

And you could follow the exact same process with every class.. It proves nothing.

Also, PvP is not a normal play mode that should be taken into consideration when balancing.


In our group we fight a lot of NPC's because we have different factions fighting for power. So balancing helps a lot in our campaigns.

[Gnaeus]

And you could follow the exact same process with every class.. It proves nothing.

Also, PvP is not a normal play mode that should be taken into consideration when balancing.

Well, part of the problem is that OP, like balance in general, is a vague term that means different things to different people.

To me, OP means one of 3 things:
1. An option that is so strong that it overshadows all the other choices, to the point that a player seeking an optimized character will only play that, or only take that option. (IMO, the best definition).
2. An option that is so massive in PVE that it is difficult or impossible to make encounters that will challenge it that don't instakill the other PCs.
3. An option that is so powerful and versatile that other PCs cannot contribute to common challenges.

The PVP examples, while you are correct that the system is not designed for PVP, show that a druid is not OP by measure 1 or 2. There are clearly, demonstrably scenarios, (not even terribly unlikely scenarios) where other PCs are better than a druid. The question "should I play a Wizard (Bard, cleric, sorcerer) or a Druid?" does not have a clear mechanical answer, and there are clearly threats to which a druid is likely to be more vulnerable than generic party member X.

Druid does even worse on measure 3. While he is hard to kill, he is unlikely to significantly outperform his party's muggles in damage, or the casters in utility. If anything, it is kind of the opposite.

So, by any standard I use, druid is not OP. Tell us what OP means to you, and the outcome may change.

[JAL_1138]

Casters pull ahead in general utility and some broken spell options at max level like they have in every edition except 4th. True regardless of which fullcaster it is. Generally, they pull ahead less in 5e than they did in AD&D or 3rd. The druid is a highly survivable caster versus nonmagical melee damage from a single opponent (easy to resolve, just have the monsters you're throwing at a druid geek the caster like everything else does all the time for other casters anyway; that's highly likely to chew through wild shape quick enough to do some hefty damage to their true form in a level-appropriate encounter), but vulnerable to some spells (and monster abilities) compared to other casters.

More importantly for someone trying out 5e for the first time as Tonden is, the problems with high-level play will not become apparent for a very long time--the druid's Wild Shape isn't a major problem until they start getting a lot of uses per day / infinite uses per day at very high levels, and even once they do, how big an issue it is depends on a DM ruling for how Wild Shape works, and even then, regardless of interpretation, it can be resolved without throwing monsters at the party that leave the other classes getting flattened before the Druid has to start worrying.

At the levels most campaigns are going to take place at (and as an aside, I would always recommend starting at the lowest levels when new to any system), druids, and casters generally, are pretty much fine.

[kaoskonfety]

Voicing along the "it's fine" side - Druid Shapechange is a good ability, Very good low level when !BEAR! Tapering off, to "of some utility" on land druids and "solid trick" on Moon druids, over time. If you a DM REALLY feel the first 5 levels are broken as heck tweaking is definitely possible (bears are extinct in this area/setting, over-hunting by nobles, there are no "in the book bears" just massive cave bears whose CR is too high... blah blah blah).

If you, a player, think the first few levels are overpowered as heck... play a druid?

I'm not getting into the lvl 17+ Thunderdome! part of the discussion. It is a silly place. The D&D's (indeed most rules oriented RPG's) have always started to break down "fairness" wise once you got a bit top heavy and playing rock, paper, scissors with the classes is not productive when they are a party working together 90+% of the time.

[ProphetSword]

I think the point of my example with the druid and the wizard might have been missed by some folks. All I was trying to say is that if you think the druid is broken at level 20, maybe you should look at other classes to get a perspective on why they aren't broken. Considering an enemy NPC wizard could use Wish to send the druid into the void...or even cast Sleep from a high level slot to put him out of the fight...the druid isn't as OP as he seems.

[Kryx]

I think the point of my example with the druid and the wizard might have been missed by some folks. All I was trying to say is that if you think the druid is broken at level 20, maybe you should look at other classes to get a perspective on why they aren't broken. Considering an enemy NPC wizard could use Wish to send the druid into the void...or even cast Sleep from a high level slot to put him out of the fight...the druid isn't as OP as he seems.
This logic is the same presented above. And again Wish is a terrible example as what you're suggesting to use it for is entirely DM fiat.

By this logic only something that in invulnerable to magic is OP.

That's not a good line to draw for what is OP and what isn't.

[xyianth]

Generally, I find that the OP (or near OP) aspects of moon druid come from different things over the course of 20 levels. Moon druid is one of the only ways to get a second attack before 5th level, and the second attack they get is the strongest one available. (monk gets 1d4+mods, polearm master gets 1d4+mods, dual-wielding fighter can get up to 1d8+mods, spiritual weapon is 1d8+mods, etc...) This and the ablative hp contribute to the druid's OP reputation during the early game. In the late game, the shift into elemental forms is generally the issue. Earth elemental is 126hp + resistance vs non-magical weapons. The vast majority of monster threats will have difficulty dealing with that kind of defense. It's not so bad prior to 20th, as an elemental form uses both shifts for a rest. Once it becomes at-will, it does get a little hard to deal with. I actually kind of wish they got rid of the beast spells feature (so shifting is a trade-off between casting potent spells and high survivability) and restricted moon druids from taking any form with multiattack until 5th level.

[Gnaeus]

This logic is the same presented above. And again Wish is a terrible example as what you're suggesting to use it for is entirely DM fiat.

By this logic only something that in invulnerable to magic is OP.

That's not a good line to draw for what is OP and what isn't.

This was addressed before. I presented 3 lines for what is OP and what isn't, none of which show the Druid as OP. If you object to what the line is, thats fine, its arbitrary. But in order to continue to regard the druid as OP, you will have to tell us what OP means to you.

Also, as was also addressed before, the point of discussing Wish isn't (or isn't solely) to show that Wizard > Druid in PVP. It addresses the power generally available to high level casters. If wizard (and bard, borrowing Wish, and Cleric, asking a god for help) is more powerful than a Druid 20, then either ALL major casters are OP (which itself begs the question, OP compared to what?) or none of them are. Wish, as a power available to the wizard and others by the time the high level druid cheese becomes available, is part of the bar the druid has to beat in order to actually be overpowered (which means more powerful) compared with other options available to other classes of that level.

Nothing is ever overpowered in a vacuum. Things are overpowered compared with other things.

[Kryx]

This was addressed before. I presented 3 lines for what is OP and what isn't, none of which show the Druid as OP. If you object to what the line is, thats fine, its arbitrary. But in order to continue to regard the druid as OP, you will have to tell us what OP means to you.
I'm not even the one that started this thread! Ask him!

Your OP scale is not great. My definition of OP is that it is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes.

In this case the druid is outside the bounds of other classes at 2-4 because he has 68 additional hp and multiattack. The AC is much lower, but the HP sink is huge. Also multiattack 3 levels before any other class. That's too strong for my tastes so I slow it down slightly. It's a VERY common idea held on these and other forums that the moon druid is too strong at 2-4.

20+ I have no fix, but I also never plan to get there in the most likely scenario. For the same reason I also ignore spells like Wish and True Polymorph - they don't matter to me at all. If I ever got to that level I'd likely not allow their OP uses to be used. I prefer to balance the outliers than ignoring all balance issues because of the outliers.

[JAL_1138]

I'm not even the one that started this thread! Ask him!

Your OP scale is not great. My definition of OP is that it is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes.

In this case the druid is outside the bounds of other classes at 2-4 because he has 68 additional hp and multiattack. The AC is much lower, but the HP sink is huge. Also multiattack 3 levels before any other class. That's too strong for my tastes so I slow it down slightly. It's a VERY common idea held on these and other forums that the moon druid is too strong at 2-4.

20+ I have no fix, but I also never plan to get there in the most likely scenario. For the same reason I also ignore spells like Wish and True Polymorph - they don't matter to me at all. If I ever got to that level I'd likely not allow their OP uses to be used. I prefer to balance the outliers than ignoring all balance issues because of the outliers.

The original poster asked about Wild Shape at high level because of the HP replenishing issue. Thus the discussion went to high level and focused on the HP issue. Numerous responses detailed how it could appear to be a problem but against the expected abilities of classes and monsters at 20th level it was not in itself an issue.

18-20 it's expected that Wizards and Bards will be likely to have Wish, True Polymorph, or PWK. They may be extremely potent spells (far too potent IMO), but they're on the spell list--actually, toss in Meteor Swarm, (I think True Resurrection is 9th, or am I mistaken?), and a couple others, and that's most of the 9th-level spell list. There's not a whole lot of 9th-level spells to pick from. If there is a caster with 9th-level spells, they are probably going to have one of those. Most likely Wish, since it crops up on more classes' spell lists and does so many things, but PWK is not a bad choice for a wizard since it can end a fight quickly.
So if one is discussing class balance at high level, which is what the original poster asked about, those are in there as expected abilities to balance against.

Moon Druid at 2-4 is on the strong side but IMO not ridiculously so because of the drawbacks to Wild Shape at low levels before they start getting goodies like Beast Spells (no casting in beast form, low AC, limited uses). Its effectiveness depends on what animals they encounter at what CR and how liberal the DM is with allowing rests to replenish it. Anybody can multiattack at level 1 by dual-wielding or taking a feat as a variant human, or at level 3 by taking a feat, so that hasn't ever bugged me much, but you can easily restrict what animal forms they can access (use larger groups of low-CR enemies instead of one big one, use animals without multiattack, etc). That said there's debate on it, as you say. However, I think where we ended up at odds is that rather than debating the 2-4 issue most of us were discussing high level and so we were sort of talking past each other, arguing different subjects. Sorry about that.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not even the one that started this thread! Ask him!

And if his answer is different than yours, your contribution becomes irrelevant?


Your OP scale is not great. My definition of OP is that it is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes.

Ah, so a level 1 barbarian dwarf or human with toughness is OP, because his HP are significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes. And a level 1 half elf rogue is OP, because his skill use is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes. And fighter and ranger archers are OP, because their to hit is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes. I think my definitions are better. But if that is the definition you use, druid will qualify, as will most classes at some point.


In this case the druid is outside the bounds of other classes at 2-4 because he has 68 additional hp and multiattack. The AC is much lower, but the HP sink is huge. Also multiattack 3 levels before any other class. That's too strong for my tastes so I slow it down slightly. It's a VERY common idea held on these and other forums that the moon druid is too strong at 2-4.

And it is also commonly held that that is not true. Several people on this very thread have argued that it isn't OP, although they may have been using the term differently than you. Your appeal to the mob for authority is not helpful. There is hardly consensus and even if there were that wouldn't be proof.

I would argue that due to your definition, the fact that the druid is OP (per your definition) at that level doesn't actually mean anything. Is having a lot more hp coupled with low AC actually better? sometimes yes, sometimes no. He has worse saves than the fighter. The paladin and fighter both beat him at burst damage. Barbarians have higher ac and resistance to all damage. They can talk, use gear, etc. Just because he is out of normal boundaries at one thing (HP in this case) does not make him better over that level range, only better at his specialty, which is a good thing.


20+ I have no fix, but I also never plan to get there in the most likely scenario. For the same reason I also ignore spells like Wish and True Polymorph - they don't matter to me at all. If I ever got to that level I'd likely not allow their OP uses to be used. I prefer to balance the outliers than ignoring all balance issues because of the outliers.

The reason they aren't outliers is that many options have powers at this level. So, if your argument is "Druid is OP because I nerfed the Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, etc" then even if you proved it, all you would prove is that Druid is OP at your table with your houserules. Which means exactly 0 to anyone who is not at your table.

[Shining Wrath]

Here's one other definition of OP:

A DM has to design different encounters if class X is added to a party, in a way that no other class requires.

Assuming everyone is level 20, if a DM would handle a Wizard, Rogue, Paladin, Cleric party pretty much the same way as a Wizard, Rogue, Paladin, Druid party, and would also handle a Wizard, Rogue, Paladin, Bard party pretty much that same way, then Druid is not OP (or at least not in comparison to Bard and Cleric).

If, though, the presence of the Moon Druid required the DM to add a wizard with PW:K to every combat encounter to avoid having the Druid trivially destroy all his monsters, or eschew combat entirely because it's just pointless to go up against the endless HP of the druid, then the Moon Druid would be OP.

I think by this definition of OP Moon Druids are not OP. There will be some encounters where the party will be glad they have the Druid rather than the Cleric or the Bard, and some where they'd have been better off with someone else.

[Submortimer]

I'm not even the one that started this thread! Ask him!

Your OP scale is not great. My definition of OP is that it is significantly out of the normal expected bounds of other classes.



You're Right, the Moon Druid is a tank. But, given a decently optimized build, they don't vastly outpace the fighter at those level, with the exception of HP, and even then that's not really a big deal.

Pretty much the best multiattack you're getting at level 2 is Brown bear, with a 1d8+4 and 2d6+4, each with a +6 to hit. 34 HP, 11 AC. Can't be modified by feats, isn't affected by the Druids attributes, thats what it is.

By comparison, lets do a Variant Human fighter with TWF. Dex 18, (16 from point buy, +1 from Human, +1 from Resilient: Dex), Con 14, TWF Fighting Style. 12 HP, 16 AC. Rapiers give him two attacks, each 1d8+4. Attack-wise, all else equal, the average for 1d8+4 is 8, while the average for 2d6+4 is 11. Without GWF backing it up, that 2d6 stops being so overwhelmingly powerful, and at those levels any of those attacks is likely to fell said bad guy in one shot.

[Kryx]

Moon Druid at 2-4 is on the strong side but IMO not ridiculously so because of the drawbacks to Wild Shape at low levels before they start getting goodies like Beast Spells (no casting in beast form, low AC, limited uses). Its effectiveness depends on what animals they encounter at what CR and how liberal the DM is with allowing rests to replenish it. Anybody can multiattack at level 1 by dual-wielding or taking a feat as a variant human, or at level 3 by taking a feat, so that hasn't ever bugged me much, but you can easily restrict what animal forms they can access (use larger groups of low-CR enemies instead of one big one, use animals without multiattack, etc). That said there's debate on it, as you say. However, I think where we ended up at odds is that rather than debating the 2-4 issue most of us were discussing high level and so we were sort of talking past each other, arguing different subjects. Sorry about that.
Restricting forms is just a DM fiat way of saying "no that one is too strong". I'd rather do it generically by CR.

Expected number of short rests per day is 2-3. Assuming the druid uses his Wildshape twice each short rest that is 6-8 uses of a brown bear. In total that's 204-272 additional HP above his normal 13+con at lvl 2. You can also stack on Barkskin for decent AC or buy some barding and have an ally put it on you.

Add in full casting alongside with the best out of combat heals.. Not much more to say.

[Malifice]

Restricting forms is just a DM fiat way of saying "no that one is too strong". I'd rather do it generically by CR.

Expected number of short rests per day is 2-3. Assuming the druid uses his Wildshape twice each short rest that is 6-8 uses of a brown bear. In total that's 204-272 additional HP above his normal 13+con at lvl 2. You can also stack on Barkskin for decent AC or buy some barding and have an ally put it on you.

Add in full casting alongside with the best out of combat heals.. Not much more to say.

Actualy 2-3 short rests per day = 8-10 bear forms (you left out the long rest in tbe morning).

So an extra 330 odd hp a day. Starting at 2nd level.

I've tweaked Moon Druids extensively to balance this. (Scaling proficiency bonus, wild shape only granting temp HP, limiting access to multitrack till 5th and giving a slight buff to AC).

[ProphetSword]

Also, as was also addressed before, the point of discussing Wish isn't (or isn't solely) to show that Wizard > Druid in PVP. It addresses the power generally available to high level casters. If wizard (and bard, borrowing Wish, and Cleric, asking a god for help) is more powerful than a Druid 20, then either ALL major casters are OP (which itself begs the question, OP compared to what?) or none of them are. Wish, as a power available to the wizard and others by the time the high level druid cheese becomes available, is part of the bar the druid has to beat in order to actually be overpowered (which means more powerful) compared with other options available to other classes of that level.

Nothing is ever overpowered in a vacuum. Things are overpowered compared with other things.

Thanks. This is exactly the point I was trying to make with my example.

It should also be noted that 20th level is the capstone level. Most campaigns that make it that far are going to be ending soon (and if they aren't, the DM should be prepared for world-bending abilities to be the course of the day). Let the druid have their awesome time to shine as things are likely winding down anyway.

As far as low levels go, some argument could be made about how powerful the druid is. They aren't unstoppable, though, and given the brutality of the monsters in 5e, that extra bit of power could be exactly what the party needs from time to time.

[calebrus]

Actualy 2-3 short rests per day = 8-10 bear forms (you left out the long rest in tbe morning).

So an extra 330 odd hp a day. Starting at 2nd level.

No, he didn't. And no, it isn't.
Wake up: 2 wild shapes
After first short rest: 2 more wild shapes (making 4)
After second short rest: 2 more wild shapes (making 6)
If you get a third short rest, you'd get 2 more wild shapes (making 8)

To get your 8-10, that would be 3 or 4 short rests.

[Malifice]

No, he didn't. And no, it isn't.
Wake up: 2 wild shapes
After first short rest: 2 more wild shapes (making 4)
After second short rest: 2 more wild shapes (making 6)
If you get a third short rest, you'd get 2 more wild shapes (making 8)

To get your 8-10, that would be 3 or 4 short rests.

You're right. My bad. Man I was wired last night.

[Gwendol]

Restricting forms is just a DM fiat way of saying "no that one is too strong". I'd rather do it generically by CR.

Expected number of short rests per day is 2-3. Assuming the druid uses his Wildshape twice each short rest that is 6-8 uses of a brown bear. In total that's 204-272 additional HP above his normal 13+con at lvl 2. You can also stack on Barkskin for decent AC or buy some barding and have an ally put it on you.

Add in full casting alongside with the best out of combat heals.. Not much more to say.

Or no casting while in beast shape. AC doesn't stack in 5e, and barkskin is a concentration spell (i.e. not necessarily the best choice for a frontliner). Barding is an option, but due to cost not always available.

The druid is fine, but my opinion is that the HP is balanced vs the AC (or lack thereof) and average attack bonus. They have flavorful class features, a solid spell list, and versatile enough to do scouting, infiltration, combat, healing, etc. It's a great class, but hardly OP.

[Myzz]

due to a different thread (wildshape vs PWK), I've decided that while wildhshaped psychic damage goes directly to caster form's HP, not the current shape he is in.

in a non combat shape (bird scouting form) the Druid is susceptible to insta death via disintegrate and PWK, making his versatility much diminished. Barding takes time to don (time out of how long a character can be in wildhsape) and would require assisstance.

Hunter Rangers get multi attack at level 3: Horde Breaker which requires the attack be against 2 different targets within 5ft of each other, but can be done at range without placing oneself in combat (where as the bear can make the attack against the same target but must be in melee, and the bear does get the attack 1 level sooner - if moon druid)

Depending on how you interpret Barkskin, the Bear's AC would only go to 16... It doesn't say AC=16+dex. It says that the target's AC can't be less than 16. AND its concentration on a tank that is going to be taking hits since 16 isnt that high. AND at the low levels where the bear dominates the druid itself is not going to have a ton of spell slots... casting a concentration spell thats essentially going to last 1 fight (encounter) is going to chew through your spell slots quick quickly AND you had to have cast it prior to taking on the shape. Shape times quickly outpace Barskin duration. So if a druid waits to assume wildshape until the fight starts that 1 turn wasted for the druid: Action = Cast Barskin, Bonus Action = turn to bear, Move action = get in position to take some hits... maybe its the best choice, but after the first fight he's likely to stay in Bear form unless you immediately have a short rest, which means next fight he's not gonna have barkskin... But he could pop out to cast it once and then back into bear... at this point those actions spent in combat casting barkskin means no multi attack...

IMO druid's as HP sponges are not going to be OP, you can choose to not attack them. Thier damage isnt going to be the highest so they should not be percieved as the biggest threat. Heck if the NPC's did not see him turn into a bear, that could just be someones pet, it could be a conjuration (and dropping the caster who brought it would get rid of it)... Anyone that sees him transform into a bear, could possible know that druid's are going to be HP sponges and therefore a poor choice to attack while his buddies eat your hp away. Anyone who doesn't know that should realize that quickly when the bear is dropped out of HP and the druid appears and then immediately turns into another bear (or other animal) with full HP...

[Gwendol]

Yup, agreed. Because spells, I would advise against going full bear if playing a druid. Using beast shape for utility is great, but I'd stick with normal shape (and access to spells) for the most part during combat. Being able to soak up damage can be useful, but that alone is never going to be game-breaking.

[Kryx]

the HP is balanced vs the AC (or lack thereof) and average attack bonus..
No, 204-272 additional HP is not balanced on 11 ac. Their are ways to mitigate the AC, and even if there aren't that amount of HP would likely absorb a LOT of blows over the day.

The to hit is +5 - the same as any other class with 3 ability mod.
And once again it is multiattack at a much higher damage point than most other builds while also having the highest HP by far.
(I don't allow variant human so many of these feat dependent builds are a non-factor to me)

[Myzz]

No, 204-272 additional HP is not balanced on 11 ac. Their are ways to mitigate the AC, and even if there aren't that amount of HP would likely absorb a LOT of blows over the day.

The to hit is +5 - the same as any other class with 3 ability mod.
And once again it is multiattack at a much higher damage point than most other builds while also having the highest HP by far.
(I don't allow variant human so many of these feat dependent builds are a non-factor to me)

As I pointed out the Ranger does get a second attack 1 level later (that does have restrictions), any dual wielder is going to also have a second attack starting at level 1. Since the bear can't use the bonus action to do consistant bonus attacks, they are pretty equivalent to using a d8 Rapier and d6 short sword (claw attack is superior being a 2d6). A rogue dual wielder will be getting 1d8+2d6(SA)+dex+1d6+dex. A BM Fighter will be getting 1d8+str+1d8(superiority die)+1d6+str+1d8(super die).

Most people would probably argue that going bigger is better for melee fighters so if dual wielding is on par with the bear, shouldn't Great Weapons be superior?

For damage soaking... Barbarian will have a TON of HP's as well and be taking half damage from almost all attacks while having a consistantly superior AC (probably equivalent when the bear has barkskin) at level 5 the Barbarian will probably be close to 70 HP's, so he can take 140'ish damage. Which is fewer HP than the Bear over the coarse of the whole day, but per encounter is going to be consistantly higher. Per encounter the druid has a max HP of 157 at level 5, rolling for max HP on bear forms and druid caster form. On average that would be closer to 98. During Each encounter the bear's ability to soak hits will be lower than that of your average barbarian, who is probably taking fewer hits consistantly and doing more damage!

[Gwendol]

That's assuming the group can pace their rests to fit the druids replenishing schedule.

Yes, the brown bear is good at level two, but it is still just a bruiser with crappy AC. I can't accept not factoring in feats in the discussion as they are a central part of the rules. By that standard one could stipulate a world where the only beast shapes are no larger than medium, or whatever arbitrary restriction one can think of limiting the beasts the druid has encountered.

A wood elf ranger, for example, has +7 to attack dealing 1d8+3 damage if going archer, which may allow for a second attack through horde breaker at level three. The ranger will have better AC.

[Fwiffo86]

I can't accept not factoring in feats in the discussion as they are a central part of the rules.

Not to really split hairs here, but this statement is incorrect. Feats are optional. Are they used at many tables? Certainly. But they are not a central part of the rules like they were in previous editions.

[CrusaderJoe]

A key question is if conditions persist. Does poison persist when Wildshape reverts? Does confused? Does dead (which is different than zero HP, because at zero HP you aren't dead, you're rolling to stabilize)?

I rule that conditions persist. Other DMs may rule differently.

By tweets an effect that kills you outright like Power Word Kill would kill the wildshaped Druid and the body would revert and the druid would stay dead.

I would say all effects persist. Just like how if you cast Barkskin and then wildshape you can keep concentrating on it. It should work both ways you know.

[Gwendol]

Not to really split hairs here, but this statement is incorrect. Feats are optional. Are they used at many tables? Certainly. But they are not a central part of the rules like they were in previous editions.

They are in the PHB, and not tucked away in an appendix. Feats are just as much subject to the DM as are available beast shapes.

[Fwiffo86]

They are in the PHB, and not tucked away in an appendix. Feats are just as much subject to the DM as are available beast shapes.

I agree that they are just as subject to DM as any other rule. Their location is irrelevant, as they are clearly indicated as being optional in their description.

[Kryx]

As I pointed out the Ranger does get a second attack 1 level later (that does have restrictions), any dual wielder is going to also have a second attack starting at level 1. Since the bear can't use the bonus action to do consistant bonus attacks, they are pretty equivalent to using a d8 Rapier and d6 short sword (claw attack is superior being a 2d6).
Wut.. a bear attacks twice. They do not have a bonus action. They do 2d6+4 and 1d8+4

Assuming all hit that's 2d6+1d8+8, or an average of 3.5+3.5+4.5+8 = 19.5. Compare that to a TWF hand crossbow build = 3.5+3.5+6 = 13. That's 6.5 damage more than one of the builds that is commonly cited as a top damager. Not even close even after using their bonus action.

On Feats: I have no problem assuming feats are used. But you should not assume variant human, which is an optional rule and the outlier of all races imo.



That's assuming the group can pace their rests to fit the druids replenishing schedule.
No, that's assuming a DM plays by RAW. If a DM chooses not to use the normal rules/expectations for resting then obviously a druid is not as powerful. The same is true for a Warlock and several other classes. This isn't relevant to a discussion of balance based on the RAW.

[Myzz]

Wut.. a bear attacks twice. They do not have a bonus action. They do 2d6+4 and 1d8+4

Assuming all hit that's 2d6+1d8+8, or an average of 3.5+3.5+4.5+8 = 19.5. Compare that to a TWF hand crossbow build = 3.5+3.5+6 = 13. That's 6.5 damage more than one of the builds that is commonly cited as a top damager. Not even close even after using their bonus action.

What is a Bear druid going to do with their bonus action? Only thing I can think of is to expend a spell slot to heal 1d8/slot level. Why compare a druid to a ranged class that isnt going to get hit using a small damage die weapon? The benefits of which is being at range and being able to utilize poisons... neither of which apply to a druid. Instead I would compare it to another dual wield melee.

Rogue gets sneak attack dice whenever he gets advantage, BM Fighters add superiority Dice to dmg, and Rangers get an additional attack at 3 to 2 creatures within 5ft. At level 3 a duel weild ranger has 3 attacks... The Bear has obviously better HP soaking then all of those. BUT all of them have better AC then a druid in bearform, unless that druid also has barkskin up.

I'm under the impression Druid is thought to be OP because of his ability to change multiple times and soak lots of damage and dish out more dmg. Which is just untrue. Per encounter your Barbarian is going to soak more damage and likely deal more damage. AND the druid only outpaces him in soaking damage over the course of the day when the Barbarian runs out of rages OR no one is healing the Barbarian in between encounters.

The Bears ability to actually hit declines as the party moves away from level 4. At level 5 everyone but the bear gets a +1 to hit due to proficiency bonus. The bears +5 to hit is based on an equivalent damage dealer only have a 16 or 17 in its to hit stat... most people by level 4 will have pushed that to 18 to get +4, so at level 5 they'll be at +7, and bear still at +5 (by RAW, you can say that the druid carries over its proficiency bonus and then would get an additional +1 to hit at level 5, but thats not RAW... AND the bear should have had a +6, since its str is +4, so it obviously only has a prof bonus of +1, so if using the druids prof bonus its definately better)

[Kryx]

Why compare a druid to a ranged class that isnt going to get hit using a small damage die weapon?I assumed you were using range as the range version does more damage.


The Bears ability to actually hit declines as the party moves away from level 4.
I've only ever said 2-4. After that I agree Wildshape drops off - at least until they add more forms.


most people by level 4 will have pushed that to 18 to get +4
A feat is generally a better choice for most classes.


Per encounter your Barbarian is going to soak more damage and likely deal more damage.
Not true at all. The bear's claws alone do more damage than the barbarian. Add in the bite and the barb loses.

The barbarian has ~25 hp (12+7+6 [assuming 3 con]). Effectively 50. Compared to 85. 68+~17 (8+5+4[assuming 2 con]). 50 is somewhat comparable to 85 with the low ac, but the druid also has higher dmg and spells.

A bear combines 3 things: Tanky, Damage, and Spells. It's better in comparison at other levels, bit 2-4 is too high.

[Myzz]

yeah thats average of 25 HP for a barbarian at level 2:
12+3+7+3=25, taking half dmg at level 2 means he's soaking up to 50 hp

Druid at level 2
34+34+10+2+5+2=87

move out to level 3
Barb = 35 = 70 soak
Druid = 94 soak

4th
Barb = 45 = 90
druid = 101

5th
Barb = 55 = 110
druid = 108

*assumes Barbarian has +3 mod and druid has +2 into Con

At 5th level the Barb also gets his 2nd attack


So at the lower levels when the party needs someone to take some really nasty hits that will likely drop and or kill everyone else, the druid can step up and be quite effective, afterwards that ability peters out quite quickly. Then I imagine it will jump up considerably again at level 10 when the Druid can take on Earth Elemental form: 17AC, 126 HP BPS dmg resistance from non magic weapons... At that point his AC will meet or exceed a barbarians and while he has fewer HPs??? he also has dmg resist from nonmagic weapons... +8 to hit and 2d8+5 dmg on 2 attacks... so his dmg is probably inferior to the barbarians at that point...


Of course this is ignoring the fact that a Paladin or Fighter could have an extremely hard to hit AC and never actually have to soak any of this dmg

25+ AC = 18 (plate) + 2 (Shield) + 1(Defensive Fighting Style) + 2 (Shield of Faith) + X (prof bonus from Defensive Duelist)
and has the ability to soak 3 dmg from all non magic wpn attacks (Heavy Armor Master)

All in all I dont think the Druid is OP, considering yes at certain points he's better than class X at doing XYZ... AND he really shines at levels pre5, WHICH just happens to be when the party as a whole really could use that help. But until level 20, in no way is the druid game breaking! At which point you have to weigh his ability to soak a TON of dmg vs the Ability to summon Gods, Imprison targets in pocket dimensions forever, turn targets into whatever you want forever (including a Bidet or bedpan), or just plain Wish whatever you want! At that point I dont think the druid being able to assume a multitude of shapes is really that bad of a thing. heck drop a moonbeam on them and they revert to normal! (thats a level 2 spell with saving throw made at disadvantage)

[Kryx]

All in all I dont think the Druid is OP, considering yes at certain points he's better than class X at doing XYZ... AND he really shines at levels pre5, WHICH just happens to be when the party as a whole really could use that help.
"The party needs it" is not an excuse.
Obviously we disagree on where to draw the line on what is too much of an outlier. Many agree with you and many agree with me.

Not more much to say really.

[Myzz]

PHB 15, Levels 1-4 are apprentice levels...

Moon Druid's kind of skip that step, being as the Bear does not need any apprenticeship to be a Bear, he already is what he is. The rest of the mechanics fall in line with everyone else. But at those levels 2-4, where a Moon Druid can become that bear, yeah he's better... because he is essentially a level 5 character with multi attack and ability to do it twice... is that OP... You think so, I dont.

If you think it is and you have a player that wants to be a druid, the best course is to start at level 5... Druid isn't OP and never will be till 20! If skipping levels isnt your thing, then either recognize the druid is OP as you think, but diminishingly so after level 2, until he is abreast of everyone at level 5 (if not falling behind)

[SharkForce]

druid tanking at level 2 is so much better than barbarian it isn't funny. the druid recovers 70 HP worth of tanking after every short rest. the barbarian... can spend any hit die he has left, and won't be getting a rage back until a long rest, and probably didn't have rage available for half the damage he took before the first rest.

you can compare those, certainly, in the same way that you can compare the size of an elephant to the size of a mouse. at low levels, the moon druid's tankiness is completely nuts, and nothing else in the game comes remotely close to it.

and that would be reasonably ok (still a bit OP because of how much better they are), if that was what druids are about. for example, if they were not also getting full caster progression with with a fairly nice spell list including a mix of offensive and defensive spells with some utility, it would sound a lot more reasonable for them to be the best tank in the game at those levels.

it really is completely out of line with anything else at that point. at level 20, it is still probably out of line with most things at that point, but not by nearly as much as long as you compare to other full casters (1/2, 1/3, and non-casters tend to fall behind in late levels, but that's not the druid's fault specifically).

[calebrus]

If you think it is and you have a player that wants to be a druid, the best course is to start at level 5... Druid isn't OP and never will be till 20!

I agree with you about druids in general, but I disagree on this point.
There's no need to start at level 4 unless you want to.
If you're concerned about the moon druid's power level relative to the rest of the party at early levels, all you have to do is pace the game in such a way as to offer less chances for short rests.
If any of the other characters are short rest based (warlocks, monks, fighters) they are not affected all that much by missing them. But it will make a big impact on the druid.
By the time that it will make a big difference for those characters, the druid has fallen in line with expectations.

Less short rests in levels 2-4. Problem solved.

[Kryx]

he is essentially a level 5 character with multi attack and ability to do it twice... is that OP... You think so, I dont.
I'm pretty sure this is meant to be a joke if you don't think a lvl 2 character that is as strong as a level 5 character is wrong..


Less short rests in levels 2-4. Problem solved.
Or.. you could... you know.. address the issue instead of punishing every other short rest based class.

[calebrus]

Or.. you could... you know.. address the issue instead of punishing every other short rest based class.

We've already addressed the issue at our table with a houserule.
Wild Shape Houserule: Druids in Wild Shape do not use separate HP pools, but instead get a pool of HP called Beast Form Hit Points equal to half the beast's normal HP. These Beast Form HP function like temporary HP except they can also be healed. The Druid does not revert to humanoid form when these Beast Form HP are depleted unless he chooses to.
This essentially raises their total HP by one half the beasts HP while they are in wild shape.

But in cases where the table feels that something needs to be tweaked, but doesn't want to houserule, limiting short rests in the early levels solves the problem, with little impact on any of the other classes.

[Kryx]

But in cases where the table feels that something needs to be tweaked, but doesn't want to houserule, limiting short rests in the early levels solves the problem, with little impact on any of the other classes.
Tell that to a Warlock who depends entirely on short rests.

It's not a limited impact at all. It's the exact opposite - it affects several classes. A limited impact would be addressing the problem itself and not touching other classes at all.

[calebrus]

Tell that to a Warlock who depends entirely on short rests.

It's not a limited impact at all. It's the exact opposite - it affects several classes. A limited impact would be addressing the problem itself and not touching other classes at all.

You mean the warlock, who almost assuredly uses EB for combat almost exclusively at early levels?
Yeah, he's included in that. There is very little impact on him as well.

[Kryx]

You mean the warlock, who almost assuredly uses EB for combat almost exclusively at early levels?
He uses EB almost exclusively at all levels. His utility and uniqueness comes from short rests. To deprive him of those makes the class not worth playing.

[calebrus]

He uses EB almost exclusively at all levels. His utility and uniqueness comes from short rests. To deprive him of those makes the class not worth playing.

There are plenty of ways to limit short rests in the game. That doesn't make any classes "not worth playing" by any means. You're being ridiculously over dramatic.
Heck, the first official published adventure left extremely little time for rests of any sort in the early chapters. No one felt useless.
The sky is not falling.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I would like to note that calling the druid as having some huge amount of hp over other classes is a bit of an exaggeration. Druids can't use that wildshape hp to heal normal hp. And if we are comparing hp over the course of an adventuring day, every class has access to their hit dice hp pool as well as abilities like Second Wind. (plus effective hp from spells). Druids still have an advantage, but it is not nearly as big in practice as it is in theory. Much of their 'effective hp' will be wasted as it will be lost on the rest. This is not the case for most sources of effective hp.

Finally, having a lot of hp and good damage isn't the be-all end-all of combat power. Mobility, disables, and resistance to crowd control are all important. The low AC of beast forms renders them extremely vulnerable to a plethora of on-hit effects like poison and paralysis. Furthermore, druids may do more for the party using spells than going into their bear form, and when casting spells are vulnerable to losing 'permanent' hp just like everyone else.

[Kryx]

There are plenty of ways to limit short rests in the game. That doesn't make any classes "not worth playing" by any means. You're being ridiculously over dramatic.
There are several classes built on short rest mechanics. For instance fighter without second wind is significantly worse. You're right that it isn't game ending, but it definitely makes other classes better choices in comparison.

And in the end the choice to not allow for short rests hurts multiple classes instead of the intended one. It's probably the worst choice in addressing the druid.

[Fwiffo86]

There are several classes built on short rest mechanics. For instance fighter without second wind is significantly worse. You're right that it isn't game ending, but it definitely makes other classes better choices in comparison.

Your logic is hard to understand. I don't play a fighter because he has second wind. I play a fighter because he hits things all day long without stopping short of being dead. Second wind, while a very nice feature, is not a defining feature of the class.

[Kryx]

Your logic is hard to understand. I don't play a fighter because he has second wind. I play a fighter because he hits things all day long without stopping short of being dead. Second wind, while a very nice feature, is not a defining feature of the class.
We're discussing lower levels. Second wind is the main compelling feature of a fighter at low levels. Remove that and a Barbarian is a much better choice.
The same is true for many classes.

Bard has song of rest.
Land Druids can regain some spells
Wizards can regain some spells.

All these classes become weaker when a DM removes short rests.

[calebrus]

All these classes become weaker when a DM removes short rests.

Who said remove them?
I said limit them.

[rollingForInit]

"Limit" could simply mean that the DM says "No, you don't get to take a short rest after this 2-round first battle of the day just because you blew through both your Wild Shapes and the Warlock used both his slots".

[Vogonjeltz]

A key question is if conditions persist. Does poison persist when Wildshape reverts? Does confused? Does dead (which is different than zero HP, because at zero HP you aren't dead, you're rolling to stabilize)?

I rule that conditions persist. Other DMs may rule differently.

I would say you are correct and that, yes, they all persist because the Wild Shape ability says nothing about removing status effects.


1. An option that is so strong that it overshadows all the other choices, to the point that a player seeking an optimized character will only play that, or only take that option. (IMO, the best definition).

I favor that definition as well. By that metric, the Moon Druid is not overpowered, because the other options (various Land Druids) are viable and will be played.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Something can be overpowered without overshadowing all other choices.

Overshadowing all other choices is game breaking levels OP; there are certainly lesser degress of such. Perfect balance is not required (nor attempts to do so desirable in a TTRPG) but there should be a reasonable approximation.


We're discussing lower levels. Second wind is the main compelling feature of a fighter at low levels. Remove that and a Barbarian is a much better choice.
Nitpick: Spellcasting and Battlemaster maneuvers are available at low levels for fighters and are powerful options.

[Shining Wrath]

I still submit that the best way to tell if a class or archetype is OP, is to look at it from the DM's viewpoint and ask if encounters would have to be modified if a character of that type is present. You can construct an encounter where ANY type character is going to shine, mind; the key question is if every combat, or every social encounter, has to be made more challenging to handle (in this case) the Moon Druid.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm not sure about that metric. Ultimately, a 3-5 wildshape'd Moon Druid isn't much different from having a barbarian in the fight. They're both big piles of hp with good damage.

Offhand, I'd say a Sleep-caster has the most distorting impact on low level fights by a long shot. It's absolutely reliable against most enemies. Yet the general opinion seems to be Sleep is questionable but not really OP.

[Gwendol]

I still don't see how a druid (full caster) turned into a bear (melee bruiser with crappy AC) is OP no matter what. The HP recovery mechanic is likely needed to counter the bad AC. Remember that AC is what everyone targets be it weapon attacks or spells, which makes the druid in bear form vulnerable to a host of different types of attacks (poison, spell effects, etc) in addition to HP damage in a way a regular bruiser (with much better AC) is not. It also makes it extremly difficult for the druid to reliably maintain concentration, in the way a cleric or paladin can (thanks to significantly better AC). Finally, getting an extra attack is nice, but hardly game breaking, even at level 2.

[Kryx]

Offhand, I'd say a Sleep-caster has the most distorting impact on low level fights by a long shot. It's absolutely reliable against most enemies. Yet the general opinion seems to be Sleep is questionable but not really OP.
Sleep seems OP on paper, but in practice it has been not very good.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, I'm not trying to say it's OP. But it does distort encounters. For example, it's a almost-foolproof method of silencing sentries or other critical targets, since it doesn't allow a save. The DM needs to take the spell into account to make sure an encounter isn't trivialized by it.

[CrusaderJoe]

Sleep seems OP on paper, but in practice it has been not very good.

I made a Half-Orc Bard (Valor) 18 /Barbarian 2 (you can grab the barbarian levels early) who has an 13 cha and only used spells to heal, buff, or for sleep (mostly sleep). No save or attack roll spells. He beats them down with a greatsword and then uses sleep in order to get a crit.. Then if still alive he sleeps them again using a lower spell slot. Has the feat great weapon master, fun times. Do note that a critical hit is an automatic hit no matter what you roll (as per Crawford), except maybe a 1.

In theory, against bosses, he should get at least 1 critical hit per battle. Unless someone steals his kill. Will be picking up smite spells.

Sub optimal? Probably. Fun as hell? So far it seems like it. Against sleep immune creatures?

Haste great sword to the face.

[pwykersotz]

I still don't see how a druid (full caster) turned into a bear (melee bruiser with crappy AC) is OP no matter what. The HP recovery mechanic is likely needed to counter the bad AC. Remember that AC is what everyone targets be it weapon attacks or spells, which makes the druid in bear form vulnerable to a host of different types of attacks (poison, spell effects, etc) in addition to HP damage in a way a regular bruiser (with much better AC) is not. It also makes it extremly difficult for the druid to reliably maintain concentration, in the way a cleric or paladin can (thanks to significantly better AC). Finally, getting an extra attack is nice, but hardly game breaking, even at level 2.

I can confirm from DM'ing that at levels 2-4 that encounters need to be significantly adjusted to account for the extra power. AC or not, that extra HP combined with multiattack is vastly powerful. The short version is that HP is the primary defense against death in this edition. Everything else helps, but doing HP damage is the core metric of power, as evidenced by the monster builder.

Deadly level encounters were trivial with a Moon Druid to soak damage, and as I'm not stingy with short rests, it was always available for use. Do note, I'm not saying it can't be fixed or that it can't just be played past, but it IS very powerful (I consider it too powerful) and new DM's would do well to be advised.

[Gwendol]

Would it have been that different to have a well-made barbarian instead of the bear/druid? Or a battlemaster fighter? I mean, the druid brings a lot more to the table than being a bear, I know that, but this discussion focuses on the moon druid in beast form.

The Bearbarian will have resistance to most forms of damage, better AC, equal or better attack bonus, and the attack will typically do better damage.

The effect of negligible AC in case of the bear/druid, coupled its melee damage output makes the bear a prime target for ranged attacks, and focused fire. 34 HP is in that context not much, unless the team rarely stray from solo encounters (a handful of rogues would prove fatal).

One advantage I do see is to use the druid as a trap springer.

[Kryx]

equal or better attack bonus, and the attack will typically do better damage.
He will not have these.
Both the bear and the Barbarian will have +5 to hit at level 2. There is no way to get higher than 3 from ability mod and 2 from prof.

The barbarian will do 2d6+3 (3.5+3.5+4 = 11) or use a polearm if you're including feats and take variant human. That's 1d10+3 and 1d4+3. Potentially another 1d10+3 if people provoke his attack. That's 5.5+3+2.5+3(+5.5+3) = 15-22.5
A bear does 2d6+4 and 1d8+4. That's 3.5+3.5+4+4.5+4 = 19.5

The Barbarian only does better if he takes a highly powerful feat and gets the provoke. Otherwise he loses or loses significantly if he's not using a polearm.

[Myzz]

I can confirm from DM'ing that at levels 2-4 that encounters need to be significantly adjusted to account for the extra power. AC or not, that extra HP combined with multiattack is vastly powerful. The short version is that HP is the primary defense against death in this edition. Everything else helps, but doing HP damage is the core metric of power, as evidenced by the monster builder.

Deadly level encounters were trivial with a Moon Druid to soak damage, and as I'm not stingy with short rests, it was always available for use. Do note, I'm not saying it can't be fixed or that it can't just be played past, but it IS very powerful (I consider it too powerful) and new DM's would do well to be advised.

Personally as a DM, I think every encounter in a module needs to be adjusted for what your party actually is composed of... Druid and Barbarian bring lots of HP to the table.

Having multiple Assassins that can nearly always guarantee a surprise round will also force you to look at your encounters differently... that doesn't mean assassins are OP cuz they auto crit during the surprise round! Especially if the WHOLE party is stealthy and has 3 levels of Rogue to Assassin... they can even do it at Range... 4 assassins = min of 6d6 to 4 different targets and then at the top of the first round (since they will likely go first) another 3d6 to 4 targets... They can frequently take out all your mobs before they get to go!

Moon Druid is the easiest powerful character fix there is at lower levels... Don't attack the big HP sponge!

[Kryx]

Moon Druid is the easiest powerful character fix there is at lower levels... Don't attack the big HP sponge!
That's quite metagamey for your monsters to do and makes the character feel like half of his kit isn't being used.

[Submortimer]

He will not have these.
Both the bear and the Barbarian will have +5 to hit at level 2. There is no way to get higher than 3 from ability mod and 2 from prof.

The barbarian will do 2d6+3 or use a polearm if you're including feats and take variant human. That's 1d10+3 and 1d4+3.
A bear does 2d6+4 and 1d8+4.
It does significantly better damage.

You're assuming that everyone uses the same point buy. Most of the games I've played in, someone had either an 18 or a 20 in their primary stat (After Racial modifiers, of course).

It's still quite possible for a raging frenzy barbarian to outdamage a bear, provided he's using a greatsword and he has high strength.

2d6+5, twice, both with advantage (Assuming Resckless), and resistance to non-magical P/S/B damage (Which should be pretty much everything, at this level) is quite a bit more than the bear.

Edit: forgot about barbarian's +2 to melee damage! 2d6+7 twice VASTLY overcomes the bear. even assuming only a 16/17 strength, 2d6+5 twice is still a lot higher.

[Myzz]

He will not have these.
Both the bear and the Barbarian will have +5 to hit at level 2. There is no way to get higher than 3 from ability mod and 2 from prof.

C'mon Man! we all know thats not true... If he rolled an 18, the Barbarian will likely have a +4 mod and +2 prof regardless of Race! If he had a 16 Str/Dex He could choose a plethora of races to give him his +2! And get up to 18!


The barbarian will do 2d6+3 or use a polearm if you're including feats and take variant human. That's 1d10+3 and 1d4+3.
A bear does 2d6+4 and 1d8+4.
It does significantly better damage.

If Vhuman Barb It'd be 2d6+4+2+10.. 16-28dmg or 1d12+4+2+10 = 15-28

Bear = 2d6+4+1d8+4 = 10-28

hmm not so different! perhaps Barbarian better!

[Kryx]

You're assuming that everyone uses the same point buy.
Right.. I forget some people prefer imbalance between PCs where some can have a total of +10 and some have +1. If you're assuming rolling it is only a 35% chance of having 1 or more stats with a 17 in them (source (http://catlikecoding.com/blog/post:4d6_drop_lowest)).+1 from human to get 18. It's unlikely to have 18 as a human.
Imo it's an unbalanced way of generating stats and shouldn't really be used to discuss balance. Though I can see how others would disagree and I'll preface my points with "using the balanced point buy stat generation". In this case 35% isn't high enough to consider.


frenzy barbarian.
No-one ever builds frenzy because it is a terribly punishing mechanic beyond 1. It shouldn't be considered for DPR as it's not repeatable.


Assuming Resckless
Assuming Reckless is nice, but then the Barbarian effectively has -5 AC. It's a huge tradeoff. In that case the Barbarian does have much better dmg, but it also has much less tankiness.



Edit: forgot about barbarian's +2 to melee damage! 2d6+7 twice VASTLY overcomes the bear. even assuming only a 16/17 strength, 2d6+5 twice is still a lot higher.
I forgot this as well. Taking the earlier numbers his damage becomes:
13 with a greatsword
19-26.5 with polearm
vs druid at 19.
So only the variant human with a polearm is better in damage.


If he rolled an 18
Ya, I forget about rolling. I think it's a terrible choice to discuss balance, but I see the point. See above for more on this.

[SharkForce]

rage is usable 1/long rest. wild shape is usable 2/short rest.

they should not be directly comparable unless the barbarian has a ton of other valuable features that make the druid's other features look lame. instead, the barbarian is somewhat feature-starved at that point, while the druid has a few spells to throw... not awe-inspiring, but certainly not dramatically outweighed by the barbarian.

seriously, stop pointing out the effectiveness of a raging barbarian as if it were a valid metric for what a full-caster's melee ability should be. the fact that you have to compare to a raging barbarian blowing a daily resource in order to get up to druid levels is telling in itself.

[Kryx]

rage is usable 1/long rest.
It's 2/long rest at 2. 3 at 3.


seriously, stop pointing out the effectiveness of a raging barbarian as if it were a valid metric for what a full-caster's melee ability should be. the fact that you have to compare to a raging barbarian blowing a daily resource in order to get up to druid levels is telling in itself.
I very much agree with this. Plus it only wins if you take variant human with polearm master. Otherwise it loses.

[Myzz]

they should not be directly comparable unless the barbarian has a ton of other valuable features that make the druid's other features look lame. instead, the barbarian is somewhat feature-starved at that point, while the druid has a few spells to throw... not awe-inspiring, but certainly not dramatically outweighed by the barbarian.

seriously, stop pointing out the effectiveness of a raging barbarian as if it were a valid metric for what a full-caster's melee ability should be. the fact that you have to compare to a raging barbarian blowing a daily resource in order to get up to druid levels is telling in itself.

Ok, the Moon Druid's spell list is going to be quite abysmal to compare as a full caster. Only damaging cantrips are Poison Spray, Produce Flame, and Thornwhip (you can count Shillelagh if you want... but then the Druid is in melee again). L1 Damage spells = Thunderwave, And... thats it. They do get great utility, don't get me wrong. But their dmg contribution is going to be minimal.

AND they lack the recovery mechanic of Land Drui'd, Wizards, and Sorcerers... Heck throw Warlocks in that mix.

The best a moon druid can do is Cast a concentration spell, change and then were having the discussion about his tankiness and damage output in melee! So yes it is important to discuss what he's doing in melee with the other melees. The Moon Druid is likely reserving his spell slots to convert to heals anyways! And/or provide emergency healing in combat, or healing out of combat when its done! Which renders his casting ability very close to NIL!

So yes, a Moon Druid can step up and be the go to Tank at low levels using his HP pool as his method to tank, vice abysmal AC, while doing decent damage, AND he can step back out of bear and use some control spells or heals but otherwise do terrible dmg compared to other casters, with significantly fewer dmg options!

AND again the effectiveness of the Bear Tank, relies on the DM to actually attack him. Most inteligent creatures should realize that Bears have a LOT of HP's and are going to be hard to bring down, where as that caster tossing Firebolts at me, will be quite easy to bring down!

[Gwendol]

Any creature will avoid getting into the reach of the bear like the plague! Especially CR2 and below! They will kite and harass the bear if they can, especially if they are able to figure out it's a druid in beast shape.

[pwykersotz]

Would it have been that different to have a well-made barbarian instead of the bear/druid? Or a battlemaster fighter? I mean, the druid brings a lot more to the table than being a bear, I know that, but this discussion focuses on the moon druid in beast form.

The Bearbarian will have resistance to most forms of damage, better AC, equal or better attack bonus, and the attack will typically do better damage.

The effect of negligible AC in case of the bear/druid, coupled its melee damage output makes the bear a prime target for ranged attacks, and focused fire. 34 HP is in that context not much, unless the team rarely stray from solo encounters (a handful of rogues would prove fatal).

One advantage I do see is to use the druid as a trap springer.

As a matter of fact, I had a Totem Barbarian in the party as well. He was still very effective, but was clearly outdone. It's not about optimization so much, I'm sure you can (or will be able to with future feat releases and variant human) build something to be competitive, but for me this is about the floor - the base functionality. Moon Druids completely rock in utility, power, and toughness at low levels. I won't be so bold as to say they're broken, but I definitely find them OP.

[Gwendol]

That I don't doubt for a second: being able to sneak, slither, climb, etc is great, and to fly, burrow, or swim is even better!

[Myzz]

That I don't doubt for a second: being able to sneak, slither, climb, etc is great, and to fly, burrow, or swim is even better!

No swim speed forms till 4, at which point they are powerful, but not overly so (everyone has caught up to the bear at this point if not surpassed it)

No fly speed forms till 8 (at which point they are not even powerful anymore until 10 - Elemental Forms)

[SharkForce]

Ok, the Moon Druid's spell list is going to be quite abysmal to compare as a full caster. Only damaging cantrips are Poison Spray, Produce Flame, and Thornwhip (you can count Shillelagh if you want... but then the Druid is in melee again). L1 Damage spells = Thunderwave, And... thats it. They do get great utility, don't get me wrong. But their dmg contribution is going to be minimal.

AND they lack the recovery mechanic of Land Drui'd, Wizards, and Sorcerers... Heck throw Warlocks in that mix.

The best a moon druid can do is Cast a concentration spell, change and then were having the discussion about his tankiness and damage output in melee! So yes it is important to discuss what he's doing in melee with the other melees. The Moon Druid is likely reserving his spell slots to convert to heals anyways! And/or provide emergency healing in combat, or healing out of combat when its done! Which renders his casting ability very close to NIL!

So yes, a Moon Druid can step up and be the go to Tank at low levels using his HP pool as his method to tank, vice abysmal AC, while doing decent damage, AND he can step back out of bear and use some control spells or heals but otherwise do terrible dmg compared to other casters, with significantly fewer dmg options!

AND again the effectiveness of the Bear Tank, relies on the DM to actually attack him. Most inteligent creatures should realize that Bears have a LOT of HP's and are going to be hard to bring down, where as that caster tossing Firebolts at me, will be quite easy to bring down!

I didn't say the moon druid was an amazing nuker (though frankly, it isn't half bad either). it doesn't need to be. moon druids are already melee beasts (literally and figuratively) because of their superior wild shape ability to the point where people are reaching for an optimized barbarian with one of the most powerful melee feats in the game to equal (or comparing to frenzy barbarian, which is even more of a joke considering frenzy pretty much turns you into a joke for the rest of the day after you use it).

the problem is that the druid, which is a full caster, has a bunch of utility and versatility and yes, even some blasting... and then the moon druid gets to add in being as impressive in melee as a raging barbarian (at those levels) on top of that. which is strange, because the theoretical barbarian builds have put pretty much everything they have into melee to get to be that good.

at level 5 (when actual melee classes start to get extra attack), sure the moon druid's wild shape isn't that amazing. but it shouldn't be outperforming everything short of the most optimized melee builds expending all their resources for the levels leading up to that point.

[Submortimer]

Right.. I forget some people prefer imbalance between PCs where some can have a total of +10 and some have +1. If you're assuming rolling it is only a 35% chance of having 1 or more stats with a 17 in them (source (http://catlikecoding.com/blog/post:4d6_drop_lowest)).+1 from human to get 18. It's unlikely to have 18 as a human.
Imo it's an unbalanced way of generating stats and shouldn't really be used to discuss balance. Though I can see how others would disagree and I'll preface my points with "using the balanced point buy stat generation". In this case 35% isn't high enough to consider.

Half Orc or Dragonborn, +2 str. getting a 16 is pretty plausible, therefore having an 18 at 1st level is also pretty plausible.


No-one ever builds frenzy because it is a terribly punishing mechanic beyond 1. It shouldn't be considered for DPR as it's not repeatable.

Literally EVERY barbarian i have seen in play at mine or others tables has been a Frenzy Barbarian. Now, to be fair, the games we play tend to only have one, MAYBE two encounters before we're done for the night, so the Exhaustion thing never really rears it's ugly head, but yeah. They tend to wipe the floor with anything that is thrown at them.


Assuming Reckless is nice, but then the Barbarian effectively has -5 AC. It's a huge tradeoff. In that case the Barbarian does have much better dmg, but it also has much less tankiness.

But they still have resistance to almost all damage at that level. That's not really that much different than having 34 hp and an AC of 11.



I forgot this as well. Taking the earlier numbers his damage becomes:
13 with a greatsword
19-26.5 with polearm
vs druid at 19.
So only the variant human with a polearm is better in damage.

Or, like I said, 26 with a greatsword and frenzy.


A bigger point to all of this, though: This only happens through level 4. Honestly, most of the gaming I and probably you all will do is from 5 - 10, since that's when the leveling curve slows down dramatically. If the Druid is strong through then, who really cares? They're obviously not the ONLY good choice to make, since I've only had 1 sit at a table with me in the 6 months I've been playing 5e.

[Kryx]

Half Orc or Dragonborn, +2 str. getting a 16 is pretty plausible, therefore having an 18 at 1st level is also pretty plausible.
Getting 18 strength prevents you from getting polearm mastery in which case you lose out hard in damage as presented above.


Frenzy Barbarian
It gives them disadvantage after the 3rd attack and kills them after the 6th.. it doesn't matter at all for calculating damage.


A bigger point to all of this, though: This only happens through level 4.
Exactly why I've only addressed level 2-4.

[Submortimer]

It gives them disadvantage after the 3rd attack and kills them after the 6th.. it doesn't matter at all for calculating damage.


Frenzy exhausts you after your rage ends, not after each attack. It'd be 100% useless if it worked as you describe it.

[Myzz]

so the part that makes them OP is their versatility and large collection of choices? Not the actual individual choices themselves?

keep in mind that this only happens from XP 300 to 6,499... afterwhich We all seem to agree its kind of moot.

And then they don't attain much power after that until L10=64,000, which filters off after a few levels until the end of the game...

so for about 6000 xp worth of adventuring they are extremely versatile and can perform as tank, melee dps, striker, controller or healer... BUT not all at the same time. So they have the choice to be upfront melee tank and dps, or backline striker and controller... They will not do both at the same time, but they can start in the back and jump up front to fill a spot. Only at level 2 are they vastly superior to other tanks, and on par with anyone who cares a little about melee dmg optimization.

The only ability they have that outshines anyone else is the ability to soak damage... until the Barbarian gets his legs under himself.

They have a very small window when they are totally awesome due to being powerful in whatever they do with having to place almost no thought into it... and then they filter out to doing OK...

Versatility =/= overpowered, even when it requires almost no thought. They have 1 trick that outshines everyone else for like 3 levels... and one of those levels is 20...

AND yes Druid is hands down the BEST CLASS in the GAME, from levels 2-4... And then their not. I'd actually say at about level 12ish they might be the worst... Any true arcane caster catches the druid scouting at that point and you have a dead druid with no way to revive him short of wish and true resurrection...

[Gwendol]

Getting 18 strength prevents you from getting polearm mastery in which case you lose out hard in damage as presented above.


It gives them disadvantage after the 3rd attack and kills them after the 6th.. it doesn't matter at all for calculating damage.


Exactly why I've only addressed level 2-4.

There are other classes that do damage beside the bearbarian. Rogues, rangers, fighters, warlocks, monks, all manage to deal fairly consistent damage. The reason for the barbarian to show up in this comparison is due to tankiness. The fighter can be made durable too, thanks to second wind and typically better AC.

[SharkForce]

no, the thing that makes them OP is that they are not a specialized class at all, but are as amazing as a specialized class in that class's area of specialty, for that level range.

the class overall is not a problem. the class at those levels, however, *is* a problem. it isn't an overwhelming problem because it is, as noted, a relatively short period of time that this is a problem.

but that doesn't mean it is never a problem, and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't a problem for that time period. a full caster class spending short rest resources should not be competitive with the most powerful melee builds in the game spending daily resources at being a melee build and also have a bunch of other options leftover on top of that.

as noted, the solution is very simple; just push back their power curve a tiny bit between those levels. instead of giving them bears at level 2, give them bears at level 5 (for example by limiting access to forms with multiattack, or delaying the CR they can choose from), and suddenly they're still able to get good use out of their wild shape class feature for melee combat without being able to fill the same role as a full melee specialist character on top of everything else they do. nobody is saying the entire class needs a rewrite from scratch. what is being said is that the class could use some tweaking in the early levels to keep it from being an overpowered choice at those levels.

[Malifice]

no, the thing that makes them OP is that they are not a specialized class at all, but are as amazing as a specialized class in that class's area of specialty, for that level range.

the class overall is not a problem. the class at those levels, however, *is* a problem. it isn't an overwhelming problem because it is, as noted, a relatively short period of time that this is a problem.

but that doesn't mean it is never a problem, and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't a problem for that time period. a full caster class spending short rest resources should not be competitive with the most powerful melee builds in the game spending daily resources at being a melee build and also have a bunch of other options leftover on top of that.

as noted, the solution is very simple; just push back their power curve a tiny bit between those levels. instead of giving them bears at level 2, give them bears at level 5 (for example by limiting access to forms with multiattack, or delaying the CR they can choose from), and suddenly they're still able to get good use out of their wild shape class feature for melee combat without being able to fill the same role as a full melee specialist character on top of everything else they do. nobody is saying the entire class needs a rewrite from scratch. what is being said is that the class could use some tweaking in the early levels to keep it from being an overpowered choice at those levels.

My fix has been to run Wild Shape 'as is' with the following changes:

1) The druid retains his own proficiency bonus (adding the beasts ability mod) for any natural attack, skill or save either the Druid or the beast is proficient in.
2) Retains his own HD and HP in wild shape form; however he gains temp HP equal to his (Druid level x 2) upon adopting wild shape.
3) Allow the Druid to calculate his AC when wild shaped by adding his proficiency bonus to the base AC of the new form.
4) Lose multi-attack unless the Druid has 5 or more levels in the Druid class.
5) Have any special attacks of the wild shaped form (poison, trip, grapple etc) use a save DC = to the Druids spell save DC.

The above changes make the Druids attacks, damage, saves, skills, special abilities, HP, and AC scale at the same rate as other martial types.

[Gwendol]

no, the thing that makes them OP is that they are not a specialized class at all, but are as amazing as a specialized class in that class's area of specialty, for that level range.

the class overall is not a problem. the class at those levels, however, *is* a problem. it isn't an overwhelming problem because it is, as noted, a relatively short period of time that this is a problem.

but that doesn't mean it is never a problem, and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't a problem for that time period. a full caster class spending short rest resources should not be competitive with the most powerful melee builds in the game spending daily resources at being a melee build and also have a bunch of other options leftover on top of that.

as noted, the solution is very simple; just push back their power curve a tiny bit between those levels. instead of giving them bears at level 2, give them bears at level 5 (for example by limiting access to forms with multiattack, or delaying the CR they can choose from), and suddenly they're still able to get good use out of their wild shape class feature for melee combat without being able to fill the same role as a full melee specialist character on top of everything else they do. nobody is saying the entire class needs a rewrite from scratch. what is being said is that the class could use some tweaking in the early levels to keep it from being an overpowered choice at those levels.

Well, the DM has some ways to "hold back" the druid according to RAW since the beast shape has to be a form the druid is familiar with. And, yes, the druid versatility is the class strength. Another way to deal with the druid is for the DM to plan encounters accordingly. Ambushes and traps can be used to split the adventuring team, and a couple of bugbears with goblin ranged support will take down a bear in a round or two (the bugbears only miss on a 1 vs AC 11).

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you split the druid of just so you can kill its face with a freight train of melee damage then you are definitely distorting the encounter.

[SharkForce]

if you know that allowing bears is OP to the point of explicitly recommending that the DM prevent the druid (who should be extremely familiar with most common animals) from having ever seen one in spite of them being one of the most successful, widespread, and common types of animal in the world (iirc, they're one of only a very few types of animals to be found on all the continents apart from antarctica), then why not just fix the problem instead of working around it and trying to pretend like it isn't there?

basically the only way you can send someone to a place on this planet where they won't be able to find bears is to either strand them in the middle of the ocean, or send them to a place so inhospitable that civilization is basically impossible there even with modern technology. having a person who literally worships nature be so bafflingly unfamiliar with such a common and prominent natural creature is just really really weird. it would be like meeting someone who majored in chemistry but has never actually seen a bunsen burner.

[Kryx]

iirc, they're one of only a very few types of animals to be found on all the continents apart from antarctica
Nitpick: They don't exist on Australia.


why not just fix the problem instead of working around it and trying to pretend like it isn't there?
100% this. Those defending the druid seem to be suggesting everything besides addressing the problem directly. It's so much easier than altering the hundreds of other things that affect every other player.

[Gwendol]

If you split the druid of just so you can kill its face with a freight train of melee damage then you are definitely distorting the encounter.

The bugbear is CR1. What freight train?
I bet most D&D adventures don't take place on earth.

[kaoskonfety]

if you know that allowing bears is OP to the point of explicitly recommending that the DM prevent the druid (who should be extremely familiar with most common animals) from having ever seen one in spite of them being one of the most successful, widespread, and common types of animal in the world (iirc, they're one of only a very few types of animals to be found on all the continents apart from antarctica), then why not just fix the problem instead of working around it and trying to pretend like it isn't there?

basically the only way you can send someone to a place on this planet where they won't be able to find bears is to either strand them in the middle of the ocean, or send them to a place so inhospitable that civilization is basically impossible there even with modern technology. having a person who literally worships nature be so bafflingly unfamiliar with such a common and prominent natural creature is just really really weird. it would be like meeting someone who majored in chemistry but has never actually seen a bunsen burner.

I'm confused. Reviewing your posts you feel the druid is game altering-destroying overpowered in its strong phase(s). You are pointing out where it is overpowered and flat out rejecting various suggestions to keep it from wrecking the game (the rest of the parties fun, encounter balance, a party of just druids till level 4 because why would you play anything else)

What fix do you propose? did you give one and I missed it? I am interested in various ideas on a "soft fix" should I notice it being an issue in the future (haven't seen the problem yet, everything seems to work fine).

I'd agree the odds of a druid not finding a bear if they are looking for one in a "near earth medieval" setting are quite slim. While they are generally not the boldest of animals, and there are not dozens per square kilometre but they are kind of big and relatively easy to track. However local rarity to extermination is definitely possible, as are the local bears being slightly bigger and badder variety than the default out of the book bear that leaves them out of CR (or slightly smaller or weaker if you think that fixes the problem too).

Looking at it is there anything about this that is "broken" that knocking a handful of Hit Points and 2 or so strength points off the bear doesn't fix?

[Demonic Spoon]

Looking at it is there anything about this that is "broken" that knocking a handful of Hit Points and 2 or so strength points off the bear doesn't fix?


That's a terrible fix, because there are other really strong CR1 forms.

The best fix I've ever heard is limit the druid to CR 1/2 forms until level 4. The druid doesn't even have to give up being a bear, as black bears are CR 1/2 and still pretty awesome. It's also a whole lot simpler than having the druid recalculate the stat block based on his reduced stats.

[Giant2005]

All you have to do to balance the Druid is stop playing to his strengths in every... single... battle.
Low level Druids are pretty tanky against a few stronger enemies when compared to Fighters or other tanky characters. But a Druid trying to tank a horde of lesser enemies is a joke compared to the higher AC players.
So although simply chucking a few enemies at the group is easier and less time consuming, change it up every now and then and throw a bunch of lesser enemies at the group and give the other characters their chance to shine.

[CrusaderJoe]

The bugbear is CR1. What freight train?
I bet most D&D adventures don't take place on earth.

That's what I was wondering, when did the material plane become planet earth?

I really think they should have made wildshape a subclass and then give specific beast forms based on their homelands like they do for the land druid spells.*

Druid: Nature Caster
Land Druid: Nature Caster on steroids.
Moon Druid: Nature Caster that can turn into animals.


Edit: Their spells, fixed my sentence.

[Shining Wrath]

The solution to Druids being OP at level 3 may be ... nothing.

Simply enforce the existing rules on multi-classing. A good druid build for levels 1-4 might not have that many options for multiclassing afterward - mostly cleric. Or they plan to multiclass, and therefore are not quite as strong a druid as they might have been.

Either way, if your campaign is going to reach level 10, and you don't allow players to generate ability scores with something like "roll 6d6 and choose the best 3 8 times, choose the best 6", druids come back to earth.

[Demonic Spoon]

The solution to Druids being OP at level 3 may be ... nothing.

Simply enforce the existing rules on multi-classing. A good druid build for levels 1-4 might not have that many options for multiclassing afterward - mostly cleric. Or they plan to multiclass, and therefore are not quite as strong a druid as they might have been.

Either way, if your campaign is going to reach level 10, and you don't allow players to generate ability scores with something like "roll 6d6 and choose the best 3 8 times, choose the best 6", druids come back to earth.

This doesn't make any sense. Who was talking about multiclassing?

And besides, low/mediocre ability scores actually favor moon druids.

[CrusaderJoe]

The solution to Druids being OP at level 3 may be ... nothing.

Simply enforce the existing rules on multi-classing. A good druid build for levels 1-4 might not have that many options for multiclassing afterward - mostly cleric. Or they plan to multiclass, and therefore are not quite as strong a druid as they might have been.

Either way, if your campaign is going to reach level 10, and you don't allow players to generate ability scores with something like "roll 6d6 and choose the best 3 8 times, choose the best 6", druids come back to earth.

One level of monk gives the wildshape a good AC, and yes it does work that way since it is a class feature (which you keep).

Dex/Wis/Con, Druid/Monk is pretty nasty.

Side Note: I once saw a monk 6/druid 2 turn into a bear with stunning fist, flurry of blows, and shadow step... Was trained in stealth. The plan was to get expertise in stealth at a later level... Then turn into higher Dex creatures... I think a snake or something I'm not sure what the guy was thinking.

All I know is a teleporting bear able to use stunning was awesome. He got a luchadore mask that would fit the bear and whenever he wildshaped he would put the mask on right before so he could " free his spirit animal".

[kaoskonfety]

One level of monk gives the wildshape a good AC, and yes it does work that way since it is a class feature (which you keep).

Dex/Wis/Con, Druid/Monk is pretty nasty.

Side Note: I once saw a monk 6/druid 2 turn into a bear with stunning fist, flurry of blows, and shadow step... Was trained in stealth. The plan was to get expertise in stealth at a later level... Then turn into higher Dex creatures... I think a snake or something I'm not sure what the guy was thinking.

All I know is a teleporting bear able to use stunning was awesome. He got a luchadore mask that would fit the bear and whenever he wildshaped he would put the mask on right before so he could " free his spirit animal".

!El Diablo Oso! Run!

[Shining Wrath]

This doesn't make any sense. Who was talking about multiclassing?

And besides, low/mediocre ability scores actually favor moon druids.

Someone mentioned the idea of playing Druids levels 1-4, then multiclassing to something else. As in "why would you play anything else at low levels"? Because there's other levels, as discussed at length above, where a party of 4 Druids is no where near as strong as a well-balanced party with other classes.

So, if your players are the sort who would min-max to the extent of playing Moon Druids up through level 4 and then multi-classing, enforcing RAW on multi-classing makes that suboptimal - which means hard-core min-max types won't want to do it.

Problem solved.

As for a Druid shining for the first 3 or 4 gaming sessions and then being more or less normal power for the next 20 or 50 - I see no real problem.

[SharkForce]

Someone mentioned the idea of playing Druids levels 1-4, then multiclassing to something else. As in "why would you play anything else at low levels"? Because there's other levels, as discussed at length above, where a party of 4 Druids is no where near as strong as a well-balanced party with other classes.

So, if your players are the sort who would min-max to the extent of playing Moon Druids up through level 4 and then multi-classing, enforcing RAW on multi-classing makes that suboptimal - which means hard-core min-max types won't want to do it.

Problem solved.

As for a Druid shining for the first 3 or 4 gaming sessions and then being more or less normal power for the next 20 or 50 - I see no real problem.

the first mention of multiclassing out after level 4 was you.

everyone else just said it becomes reasonable at level 5. druid is perfectly fine after that, no need to abandon the class like a sinking ship.

the problem is that someone playing a druid to be a druid is OP at levels 2-4.

[calebrus]

One level of monk gives the wildshape a good AC, and yes it does work that way since it is a class feature (which you keep).

Yes, but your Wis is likely 16 or so at that point, and you're using the bear's base. 11+3= still crappy AC for a front liner.
14 is better than 11, sure, but it isn't great or anything.
And that's only if the DM rules that natural armor isn't armor. If he rules that it is, then you don't get that Wis bonus.

[Myzz]

Yes, but your Wis is likely 16 or so at that point, and you're using the bear's base. 11+3= still crappy AC for a front liner.
14 is better than 11, sure, but it isn't great or anything.
And that's only if the DM rules that natural armor isn't armor. If he rules that it is, then you don't get that Wis bonus.

Natural Armor =/= Armor Armor... otherwise your monk needs to be naked as that robe = armor... Heck you better shave off all your hair too... Oh and not get thick skin...

In regards to MC Druid at Level 5... Would seem like quite a deep sink to be powerful for 4 whole levels of adventuring...

Druid/Nature Cleric might not be too bad (although I can't understand why Nature Cleric's get heavy Armor...)

Druid/BeastMaster Ranger would be cool... double bear fun! Especially if whole party did it lol... 8 bears... pick out the PC's BBEG!

Druid/ArchFey Warlock would be sweet! Half the party = Bears with thier HP pools... other half stand back and blasts with EB! When front liners lose second bear they rotate... All while being done in Darkness with Devil's Sight running!

[calebrus]

Natural Armor =/= Armor Armor...

Show me where it says that.
I'm not saying that I would disallow the monk's unarmored defense ability because of natural armor. I'm saying that some DMs *might* disallow it. If the DM rules that natural armor does equal armor, then the monk can't use it.

[Gwendol]

It's still armor, just not one you can don/doff.

[Demonic Spoon]

As for a Druid shining for the first 3 or 4 gaming sessions and then being more or less normal power for the next 20 or 50 - I see no real problem.


Is awful intra-party balance only an issue if it comes up constantly? Even if it isn't completely destructive to gameplay over the course of the campaign, why is leaving it alone better than implementing a simple houserule to make sure that the druid is at normal power for all 23-54 sessions?

[Myzz]

Show me where it says that.
I'm not saying that I would disallow the monk's unarmored defense ability because of natural armor. I'm saying that some DMs *might* disallow it. If the DM rules that natural armor does equal armor, then the monk can't use it.

Natural Armor for a Humanoid is 10+Dex mod

Natural Armor for Animals is dependant on the animal.

When an animal wears armor we call it barding...

If a druid is in animal form and not wearing barding, he is not in armor...
As pointed out the correct way would be to figure the number based on the forms physical stats and druid caster forms mental stats...

Any DM that rules otherwise is just trying to Nerf the Monk/Druid MC due to perceived OP'ness... And that's fine for them. But Armor for that Bear has a name... we call it Barding...

[CrusaderJoe]

Natural Armor for a Humanoid is 10+Dex mod

Natural Armor for Animals is dependant on the animal.

When an animal wears armor we call it barding...

If a druid is in animal form and not wearing barding, he is not in armor...
As pointed out the correct way would be to figure the number based on the forms physical stats and druid caster forms mental stats...

Any DM that rules otherwise is just trying to Nerf the Monk/Druid MC due to perceived OP'ness... And that's fine for them. But Armor for that Bear has a name... we call it Barding...


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/druid-monk-unarmored-defense-in-shapeshift-form/

[calebrus]

As pointed out the correct way would be to figure the number based on the forms physical stats and druid caster forms mental stats...

The "correct" way to figure it out is to use the beast's Dex + your Wis (without natural armor), *OR* the beast's AC listed in the stat block (with natural armor).
If your DM wants to allow you to use both, then that's fine for him. But natural armor is indeed armor.
It's right there in the name.

[Gwendol]

Is awful intra-party balance only an issue if it comes up constantly? Even if it isn't completely destructive to gameplay over the course of the campaign, why is leaving it alone better than implementing a simple houserule to make sure that the druid is at normal power for all 23-54 sessions?

I still don't see how the druid can be game-breakingly good at level 2-4, unless the DM keeps pitching the group against encounters the druid in bear form will do well against?
I've already given the example of bugbears, against which the bear-druid will struggle. Larger groups of weak enemies (using ranged attacks) is another type of encounter in which AC 11 will be a huge liability.

[xyianth]

The "correct" way to figure it out is to use the beast's Dex + your Wis (without natural armor), *OR* the beast's AC listed in the stat block (with natural armor).
If your DM wants to allow you to use both, then that's fine for him. But natural armor is indeed armor.
It's right there in the name.

Mostly +1 to this, just a slight nitpick. It doesn't matter whether natural armor is armor, the monk's unarmored defense feature explicitly sets your AC formula to 10+dex+wis. The only reason to determine whether natural armor is considered armor is to determine whether you can use the monk's unarmored defense feature at all. You definitely don't add your wis mod to the beast's AC though, unless that is a houserule that your DM allows.

[Gwendol]

If the animal wears barding, its AC may be the armor, or its own, whichever is highest.
In any case the tweet settles that discussion.

[Shining Wrath]

the first mention of multiclassing out after level 4 was you.

everyone else just said it becomes reasonable at level 5. druid is perfectly fine after that, no need to abandon the class like a sinking ship.

the problem is that someone playing a druid to be a druid is OP at levels 2-4.

And what I said was in the context of a campaign going on to higher levels. Everything was predicated upon that. If someone is going to min-max based on levels 2-4, which ought to require 3 sessions or 4 at most to complete, and then be average or less for the remaining 20 or 50 sessions, I'm not sure there's a problem that requires fixing.

Someone trying for maximum power over the course of a campaign headed for double-digit levels might not choose druid just based upon levels 2-4. In fact, they probably wouldn't, unless the campaign was expressly headed for level 20 when capstone kicks in.

I don't see a serious problem with having the druid carry the party through a few early sessions and then become one of the team.

[Oscredwin]

Is awful intra-party balance only an issue if it comes up constantly?

Yes. There will be sessions where I roll really well and you roll really poorly and it will seem that my [class X] is so much more powerful than your [class Y]. Over the course of a 20 level game with 4-5 players, those days will happen more than the sessions where the druid is levels 2-4. And the druid will only be better than 0-2 other players (vs the archers or the other casters it's an apples and oranges comparison). Imbalance needs to be bigger than noise for it to be an issue.

[SharkForce]

And what I said was in the context of a campaign going on to higher levels. Everything was predicated upon that. If someone is going to min-max based on levels 2-4, which ought to require 3 sessions or 4 at most to complete, and then be average or less for the remaining 20 or 50 sessions, I'm not sure there's a problem that requires fixing.

Someone trying for maximum power over the course of a campaign headed for double-digit levels might not choose druid just based upon levels 2-4. In fact, they probably wouldn't, unless the campaign was expressly headed for level 20 when capstone kicks in.

I don't see a serious problem with having the druid carry the party through a few early sessions and then become one of the team.

if it was some horribly arduous process to fix the problem, i might be inclined to say it's not worth the effort. but it isn't a huge effort. it's a couple seconds with a pencil to scribble in a simple solution that people have already found which makes the druid balanced across 20 levels instead of balanced across 17 levels.

[Erechel]

if it was some horribly arduous process to fix the problem, i might be inclined to say it's not worth the effort. but it isn't a huge effort. it's a couple seconds with a pencil to scribble in a simple solution that people have already found which makes the druid balanced across 20 levels instead of balanced across 17 levels.

My two cents: the beasts HP are shared with the druid's ones. EG: a level 3 druid with 20 HP polymorphs into a dire wolf with 37 hp. The difference between the two is temporary HP, but the rest is shared. So, if an enemy does 30 damage to the direwolfed druid, and the druid reverts to his human form, it is now at 7 HP. But if the druid polymorphs into a rat with 1 PG and a stray dog deals it 5 HP, the druid now is at 15 HP.

Done and done. The druid receives a small boost to their HP, but not so high that it is broken. And beasts have a crappy AC, so **** the druid.

IMHO: the best shapeshifs of a druid are things like a rat or a roach: things that usually aren't noticed until it's too late. Incredible recognizing skills.

[Millstone85]

A thread two years in the necro-ing.

[MadSatyr]

Not OP, period. Good and versatile, yes. Not the best at everything during the game(at anything but 2-4, rest average).
So they shine at 2-4, other characters shine as well in a balanced game with lots of different encounters. In a game I am in
I am the only healer and divine caster as well. Others are a Warlock, a Barbarian and a Rogue. They all get their roles and niches to fill.
Rogue hiding and shooting, barbarian really does a lot of damage at lvl 2 and the hexblade warlock also holds his own in combat.
Outside of combat I am mostly healing, npc interaction is handled mostly by the others.

My point is, stop comparing and start playing. The character sheet is a starting point, not all there is to roleplaying.

[NorthernPhoenix]

I'd agree Moon Druids combined 17-20 features make them a bit OP at 20, but before that I think they're fine. The really broken stuff comes in so late it's very rarely a problem.

[Waazraath]

2015 called, it wants its thread back...