3.5 Tripping and whirlwind attack?

[Jthw]

I'm building a character for a core only (player's handbook, dmg, and monster manual) campaign and I realized I'm not sure about a few things about tripping.

All questions assume a whip is being used and the attacker has improved trip.
1: Can you trip in place of any attack?
1a: Even all or some of the attacks from the whirlwind attack feat?
1b: What about extra attacks from high bab?
2: What damage is dealt assuming I succeed a trip attempt?
2a: And if the whip has enchantments like flaming?
3: If all the above are yes then does that mean you can whirlwind attack a 15 ft. radius group, trip attempt all of them, and if all attempts are won then get another attack against all of those in the same group to have all your enchantments like flaming activate twice each target?

If all that is true that is a hilarious 15ft radius 2d6 flaming 2d6 frost 2d6 shock ball that also trips. All at the investment cost of a truckload of feats and 18,301gp for a neat whip.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I'm not an expert, but I'll take a stab while we're waiting for one to come along.

1. The "Actions in Combat" table from the PHB and SRD state that a trip can substitute for a melee attack. Therefore, generally speaking, any time you can make a melee attack, you can use a tripping weapon to attempt a trip.
1a. The feat says you get one melee attack against each opponent in reach. So, yes.
1b. Don't see why not. They're still melee attacks.
2. None, as far as I know. I've never played in a game where tripping dealt damage and I'm not aware of any rule that says you do.
2a. My instinct is "no" but I'm gonna pass on that one.
3. Ditto.

[Troacctid]

You need to deal damage to get the extra damage from a flaming, shocking, or frosty weapon. The touch attack made to initiate a trip attempt does not deal damage, so you won't proc the elemental damage for it. You also won't get the extra damage if your target has an armor bonus of +1 or more, or a natural armor bonus of +3 or more, since that prevents your whip from dealing damage.

Also, note that a weapon must be +1 before it can have other enchantments added to it, so a flaming frost shock weapon would be equivalent to at least +4 weapon (32,000 gp). Stacking elemental enchantments onto your weapon is not a very cost-efficient way to deal extra damage--you get severe diminishing returns on it.

[OldTrees1]

1: No. A Trip can only be done unarmed or with a Trip weapon. Any attack that does not allow you to use a valid weapon cannot be exchanged for a Trip. However most attacks can be exchanged for a Trip.

1A: Yes. A Trip is a melee attack and Whirlwind Attack specifies a melee attack and not a subcategory of melee attacks.
[for completion]If you were getting your Whirlwind Attack from a +1 Whirling greatsword you would not be able to Trip because Whirling requires you use the Whirling Weapon and a greatsword can't Trip.[/completion]

1b: Yes. See 1.

2: 0. Trip is non damaging. But your followup attack from Improved Trip might pack a punch.

[JDL]

If you plan to invest in this sort of build I suggest going spiked chain for your weapon. This will threaten a 10 ft. area and work as follows:

Step 1: Declare a full attack on your turn.
Step 2: Declare a Whirlwind Attack in place of your full attack against every target in a 10 ft. radius.
Step 3: Declare a Trip Attack in place of your melee attack against your target.
Step 4: Roll a melee touch attack with your weapon. Add full BAB and appropriate modifiers from your enhancement bonuses etc. to hit.
Step 5: If you fail to hit select a new target and return to Step 3. If you hit proceed to Step 6.
Step 6: Roll your Strength check plus your appropriate modifiers vs. your target's Strength or Dexterity check plus appropriate modifiers.
Step 7: If you beat your target's check, proceed to Step 8. If you fail to beat your target's check, you must either drop your weapon or your opponent gets an immediate attempt to trip you.
Step 8: Your target falls prone. If you have the Improved Trip feat, you immediately get a single melee attack against your prone target.
Step 9: Select a new target and return to Step 3.

Note you must hit their touch AC and then beat their opposed roll before they are tripped, after which you get a single melee attack against them. This sort of build benefits from extra feats like Combat Reflexes so you get an attack of opportunity against multiple enemies when they attempt to stand up after you drop the Whirlwind Trip, and Quick Draw so that if you have to drop your weapon to avoid being tripped if you fail your opposed roll, you can whip out another chain and continue tripping. This build also heavily benefits from Enlarge Person to boost your Trip attacks and increase your threatened area to 20 ft.

[Deox]

All questions assume a whip is being used and the attacker has improved trip.
1: Can you trip in place of any attack?
One can attempt a trip against any opponent who is one size larger, the same size or smaller. One can substitute any or all of their attacks with trip attempts with either an unarmed attack or with a specific trip weapon.


1a: Even all or some of the attacks from the whirlwind attack feat?
Whirlwind Attack requires you use the full attack action, giving up regular attacks to instead make one melee attack at your highest at all in range. Since it's only 1 attack, one could presume that the Whirlwind Attack is either a trip against all or none.


1b: What about extra attacks from high bab?
Yes. One can substitute any or all of their attacks with trips.


2: What damage is dealt assuming I succeed a trip attempt?
No damage is dealt on a successful trip. Improved Trip, however, allows for an attack after the trip occurs to attempt to deal damage.


2a: And if the whip has enchantments like flaming?
As Troacctid mentioned, only after damage is dealt does an enchantment like flaming work.


3: If all the above are yes then does that mean you can whirlwind attack a 15 ft. radius group, trip attempt all of them, and if all attempts are won then get another attack against all of those in the same group to have all your enchantments like flaming activate twice each target?

3. Whirlwind attack everyone within 15ft (as per the whip) and make a trip attempt vs. every opponent.

Note that if you use Whirlwind Attack and the trip option, the Improved Trip feat cannot be used:


When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

[JDL]

Ah, well spotted Deox. Disregard Step 8 in my previous post then, as you don't gain the benefit of Improved Trip's immediate attack with Whirlwind Attack (though you still gain the benefits of Attacks of Opportunity from your enemies standing on their turn).

[Tohsaka Rin]

Note that, due to the whip not having reach you can't use it for a whirlwind attack.

[Deox]

Note that, due to the whip not having reach you can't use it for a whirlwind attack.




The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).



When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Bolded for emphasis.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Mmm, that's right. I must be thinking of 3.0 rules again.

Thanks for the correction.

[sideswipe]

This build also heavily benefits from Enlarge Person to boost your Trip attacks and increase your threatened area to 20 ft.

wrong,

going from medium to large doubles your reach. if you have a 15ft reach it becomes 30ft. huge is 45ft gargantuan is 60ft and colossal is 75ft

its part of the actual tripper builds to get about 100ft reach without being stupid (200 ish is possible fully optimised)

[JDL]

wrong,

going from medium to large doubles your reach. if you have a 15ft reach it becomes 30ft. huge is 45ft gargantuan is 60ft and colossal is 75ft

its part of the actual tripper builds to get about 100ft reach without being stupid (200 ish is possible fully optimised)

My post was discussing the merits of using a spiked chain build, as noted in the very first paragraph of my post. Unlike a whip, this weapon has the advantage of threatening the surrounding area so you get attacks of opportunity when the enemy stands up, which was noted in the paragraph immediately before your quote. I can only conclude you didn't read the whole post.

[Deox]

Mmm, that's right. I must be thinking of 3.0 rules again.

Thanks for the correction.

I get it confused also with Pyrokineticist's Fire Lash which is a whip that's not a whip.

[Elxir_Breauer]

A Trip attempt can be made with any melee weapon that can hit the target, as long as the target is within the size category limitations. There are no designated Tripping weapons in 3.5 (that I have seen). If you fail the Trip attempt, the target can attempt to Trip you in return, or you can drop the weapon to avoid their attempt. If a Trip is attempted with an Unarmed Strike and you fail, there is no avoiding the retaliatory Trip attempt, you simply must hope they fail theirs. In the case of the Whirlwind Whip-Trip, you would get one Trip attempt against all targets in reach, who would then each have a chance to resist it and effectively disarm you if you fail to trip them and they succeed in their retaliation attempt.

[NecessaryWeevil]

From the SRD:
Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
(Emphasis mine)

Several weapons are described as tripping weapons in their descriptions, e.g. whip, spiked chain, guisarme. If some weapons are tripping weapons, then the others are not.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Hmm, that seems to be a change from the PHB rules on it, so I concede the point on that ground. Last time I recall looking up the Trip rules, what I stated above was true, to the best of my recollection. That was quite a while ago, however, so my memory could be mistaken entirely.

[Troacctid]

I think you are confusing it with Pathfinder, where IIRC the rules work as you described.

[Sliver]

Get Knock-Down and you can use any weapon you want and actually deal damage along with the trip attempt. It's very rare to not do 10 damage after a certain point.

[Jthw]

Hey everyone, thanks for the all of the replies, they are all very helpful. There are just a few things that are still confusing though.


You need to deal damage to get the extra damage from a flaming, shocking, or frosty weapon.

But the srd's wording on flaming is "A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit." It doesn't say anything about dealing damage. (The original question was wondering if the hit for trip attack counted really.)


Get Knock-Down and you can use any weapon you want and actually deal damage along with the trip attempt. It's very rare to not do 10 damage after a certain point.

It's a core only game, not an srd only game. Knock-Down isn't in core.


If you plan to invest in this sort of build I suggest going spiked chain for your weapon.

I realize I could go spike chain but I'm going whip because bards are proficient with whips. Also the extra 5ft is nice.


So pretty much most of what I'm still confused on is the flaming(and other similar enchantments) proc. time. In SRD it says "A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit." but everyone is saying that you have to deal damage for it to proc. Based on just that wording I would assume I would deal that damage on hit trip attempts and whenever attacking normally, even if the whip itself doesn't deal damage.

[Flickerdart]

I realize I could go spike chain but I'm going whip because bards are proficient with whips. Also the extra 5ft is nice.
It's not as nice as it sounds - because a whip does not threaten squares, you will be unable to take the main benefits of tripping, the Attack of Opportunity when your enemies stand up. Between that and not being able to use Improved Trip's bonus attack, you're losing out on most of the reasons people trip in the first place in exchange for 5ft of reach and an extra spare feat.

[sideswipe]

My post was discussing the merits of using a spiked chain meteor hammer build,

fixed that for you :smallwink:

[Jthw]

It's not as nice as it sounds - because a whip does not threaten squares, you will be unable to take the main benefits of tripping, the Attack of Opportunity when your enemies stand up. Between that and not being able to use Improved Trip's bonus attack, you're losing out on most of the reasons people trip in the first place in exchange for 5ft of reach and an extra spare feat.

Still I'm not trying to make the character the absolute best he can possibly be. I realize that going spiked chain is obviously superior, I just want to go whip. Plus with the dm making a core only campaign I'd assume that the dm doesn't want players to go all out in trying to make a powerhouse of a character.

[Sliver]

Still I'm not trying to make the character the absolute best he can possibly be. I realize that going spiked chain is obviously superior, I just want to go whip. Plus with the dm making a core only campaign I'd assume that the dm doesn't want players to go all out in trying to make a powerhouse of a character.

Natural Spell is core.

Also, druid.

[Lightlawbliss]

Still I'm not trying to make the character the absolute best he can possibly be. I realize that going spiked chain is obviously superior, I just want to go whip. Plus with the dm making a core only campaign I'd assume that the dm doesn't want players to go all out in trying to make a powerhouse of a character.

Over half the tools of powerhouse casters are in the PH.

[Flickerdart]

Still I'm not trying to make the character the absolute best he can possibly be. I realize that going spiked chain is obviously superior, I just want to go whip. Plus with the dm making a core only campaign I'd assume that the dm doesn't want players to go all out in trying to make a powerhouse of a character.
I'm not saying that you should use Spiked Chain because it's better, I'm saying you should use Spiked Chain because the Whip is terrible. It's not an issue of being the best, but an issue of meaningfully contributing at all.