Outlander and music instrument

[noce]

I was considering a background for a nature/savage character and I think outlander fits almost perfectly, except it gives proficiency with music instrument.
Is it useful at all?

I mean, let's talk about a barbarian outlander. You are not supposed to be able to read, you much likely don't wear any clothes, and you can play a harp? Why?
The herbalist kit could fit better, or maybe the nature or animal handling skills, but a music instrument has not the flavour of the background, in my opinion.

On top of that, does game rules support the use of an instrument for non bard characters? Is there anything you can do with a guitar playing barbarian that is not considered a houserule?

[burninatortrog]

You're free to swap the musical instrument for an herbalism kit if it fits your character better. I think a harp fits fine too though, maybe something like what these guys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4jJsN19h4) have.

[Chronos]

Note also that an outlander isn't necessarily a wild savage raised by wolves (though, yes, that is one of the suggested possible character traits for them). It could also be, for instance, someone who consciously decided that they wanted to get away from the hustle and bustle of civilization, and who deliberately went out to return to a more natural state. It's not too hard to imagine such a character bringing a musical instrument with them.

[Daishain]

The backgrounds listed in the PHB are more suggestions, templates and starting points than the only possible options. You and DMs are not only allowed but encouraged to tweak them and/or make new things up to suit your character. The only limit to that is that of common sense, a knight who never so much as touched a beaker in his backstory isn't going to have proficiency in alchemist's tools for instance.

In your case, swapping instrument proficiency out for one with an herbalism kit is perfectly acceptable.

I will say that instrument proficiency does fit the outlander background. Probably not with a harp, but spending time playing a simple flute is fairly iconic.

As for usefulness, it depends on the campaign. However, chances are that as a non social character its use will be flavorful rather than practical (The bard might need a backup player for a wacky plan involving a band, but beyond that...). Of course, I personally like to have at least a few skills that are chosen purely because they suit my creation rather than base mechanical usage, but to each his own.

[Chronos]

It does bug me that some tools (like herbalism kit and thieves' tools) have mechanical benefits laid out for them, while others (like musical instruments and gaming sets) do not. Yes, they can come up in roleplaying situations, but most players are much more likely to encounter locked doors or drink potions than they are to be challenged (or challenging anyone else) to a chess game.

[Daishain]

It does bug me that some tools (like herbalism kit and thieves' tools) have mechanical benefits laid out for them, while others (like musical instruments and gaming sets) do not. Yes, they can come up in roleplaying situations, but most players are much more likely to encounter locked doors or drink potions than they are to be challenged (or challenging anyone else) to a chess game.
Why?

D&D isn't good at simulating the real world by any stretch, but in the real world there are a LOT of skills that have little to no practical benefit for the kind of endeavor in question.

It is true that they could cut out the proficiencies that one must stretch to accommodate as a practical thing, but they really shouldn't, in fact I keep adding to the list of mostly useless but flavorful proficiencies for the campaign I intend to run. Why? Because this is a roleplaying game, and our characters are extremely unlikely to have focused solely on things that will be useful to the upcoming campaign. You are building a person with their own hopes and dreams, history and secrets, not just a murder machine. Having some skills at least be available that are not mechanics driven is quite important.

[noce]

In the real world there are a LOT of skills that have little to no practical benefit for the kind of endeavor in question.

Yes, but in real world I know how to play chess, poker, monopoly, risiko, briscola, scopa, bestia, tressette, buraco and several others, without receiving intensive training in these games.
So why should my character take proficiency in a gaming set to be able to play just a single game?

[Chronos]

I guess it comes down to the old adage that it's hard to roleplay when you're dead. Skillful use of thieves' tools can keep you alive. Skillful use of a deck of cards probably can't. Given a group of people who are facing very real and serious threats to their lives, it's hard to imagine them devoting time to mastering the latter rather than the former.

[Stan]

So why should my character take proficiency in a gaming set to be able to play just a single game?

I don't think of the proficiency as knowing how to play, it is knowing how to play well. Lots of people can play scrabble and chess but few are at championship level. I'd also allow those with a gaming proficiency to roll to gauge the ability of other players (unskilled, proficiency, or expertise), find where games are happening, and have knowledge of famous players. Any game can involve gambling so can be a source of income or a way to get to know a group of useful NPCs. Many nobles at various time periods were heavy gamblers so being decent at games might be the best way to make contact with them.

Instruments (for non-bards) and games are usually thrown in as an addition to something useful, instead of replacing something useful so it's more for flavor. You can't practice fighting continuously and most martial careers have a great deal of down time in which to learn other things.

Players can find uses for such things. Maybe a bored monster can be challenged to a game or entertained with a song instead killing the party.

[aspekt]

When did illiterate people lose the ability to make music or play games? If you're after realism, then that's not the way to go.

Music is just about as universal as language. Play is now typically considered to be another form of learning by psychologists.

I'm just saying making things too realistic is not a good path to head down in a fantasy setting. Just aim for internal consistency as much as possible.

The 'primitives' in your world are incapable of making instruments? Fine your character learned to sing the songs of birds.

[Daishain]

Yes, but in real world I know how to play chess, poker, monopoly, risiko, briscola, scopa, bestia, tressette, buraco and several others, without receiving intensive training in these games.
So why should my character take proficiency in a gaming set to be able to play just a single game?
How many of those have you spent a significant chunk of your time training to play? Probably none on the scale D&D asks. Remember, the default time to pick up a proficiency is 250 days of dedicated training.

Proficiency in a gaming set does not mean "Oh I know the rules by heart and play with my friends every other week". Its more "I make a living off of this game" or even "they're still trying to make a computer program that can reliably beat me"

In any event, the main point is that proficiencies from your background are supposed to reflect your character's history and training, not what you as a player think is useful. If you can't think of a reason for your character to have such a level of skill with a gaming set, that's fine, then don't take it. But if you can't think of a reason for ANY character to do so, even one not focused on pure mechanical advantage, you're doing it wrong.

[SharkForce]

a harp would feel odd. but a drum would seem to be perfectly reasonable.

(and yeah, as noted, proficiency in an tool isn't "i understand the basic rules for use", it's "i've studied in-depth the various strategies and tricks that you can use to get the most out of this thing". i am capable of using most carpenter's tools... but i am not proficient in them. a 10-year-old child can understand how to make a car work, but is not proficient in driving a car (probably).

still, the game does explicitly tell you to make up your own backgrounds to meet your own needs.

[Naanomi]

Make them find useful moments for their skills. Impress the general into thinking you are valuable to him (and not just murder hobos) with your chess skills. When githyanki enslave the party, everyone goes to the mines except the guy with the pretty flute who can stay and entertain. No one thinks your carpentry skills are useful compared to the lock picks; until the ship is slowly sinking.

Don't force it ... No Goonies organ death trap or Harry Potter wizards chess (at least not always); but let solutions work when they arise

[Mrmox42]

I have had several players playing Barbarian Outlanders, and they each had their approach to the musical instrument.

One played the bagpipes, to the horror of his teammates - and the enemies as well. We houseruled that the bagpipes added to Intimidation checks.

Another Barbarian Outlander clashed his axes together over his head, while he was yelling and screaming. This was his musical instrument. Well... it worked for him, so no sweat. It was good fun.

The third played a horn, which came in handy several tims as a signal device that could be heard far away.

Yes, musical instruments are mostly good for roleplaying, but they can have their 'practical' uses as well.

[Stan]

Another Barbarian Outlander clashed his axes together over his head, while he was yelling and screaming. This was his musical instrument. Well... it worked for him, so no sweat. It was good fun.


He could have fronted a metal band with that technique.

[Myzz]

yeah... bagpipes, simply flutes, and most especially drums are very iconic barbarian musical instruments. Barring that add chanting, and death dirges as vocal 'instruments'. Art is a unifying theme in all cultures, music often being utilized in some form. ESPECIALLY in tribes that have no written histories. Oral histories are often not just tales that are spoken, but songs that are sung with some sort of accompaniment (drums, chants, clapping, flutes...)

[MustacheFart]

I mean, let's talk about a barbarian outlander. You are not supposed to be able to read, you much likely don't wear any clothes, and you can play a harp? Why?

Why not? Seriously, where does it say that a barbarian is illiterate? They finally did away with that aspect of the stereotype I loath so much. I certainly don't want to bring it back or support such.

In fact, as an outlander you'll have contact with fewer people on a daily basis but more diverse contact in total. So if all the different people you meet it is very possible you would've picked up on some aspect of their culture such as reading or playing an instrument.

If you want to play a mindless, probably toothless, naked, illiterate barbarian who thinks the sounds from his backside are music then you can utilize the rules to do so. Though that is by far no longer the norm for barbarians.

As for barbarian style instruments my current barbarian uses a didgeridoo. I sound that thing off before a major battle to really set the mood. It also helps that I'm covered in dragon parts (playing HOTDQ).

[jazzymantis]

DM here

I noticed that my fighter barbarian player picked flute as his instrument proficiency. I was trying to figure out what should be some of the first magic items in the game are, and as I was flipping through the DMG I found 2 magic items that require proficiency in wind instruments, the pipes of haunting, and pipes of the sewers (those are the only none bard ones). The fighter is probably going to get that one, and its going to be one of the better magic items I give out this first time.

Possibly add a little hint into the game that you like the idea of using an instrument, but are not sure about when you could use it effectively. Maybe your DM could use on of these items, or make one.

[Galen]

I mean, let's talk about a barbarian outlander. You are not supposed to be able to read, you much likely don't wear any clothes, and you can play a harp? Why?
I have just imagined the dueling banjos sequence from Deliverance - except with harps. Mind = Blown.

[Gritmonger]

Nothing says you can't pick your own voice as your instrument either, or your body.

I tend not to think of barbarians as savage so much as extremely rural, and rural folks have always had instruments, often based in or around what they hunted or raised.

Conch shell horns, goat or cattle horns, bone flutes, "pan" pipes, drums (skin and hollow log resonaters), mbira (finger or thumb pianos), bells, rasps, rattles or castanets among many others.

[RedMage125]

I mean, let's talk about a barbarian outlander. You are not supposed to be able to read, you much likely don't wear any clothes, and you can play a harp? Why?
Where do you get "not supposed to be able to read? That might just be your hold-over from 3.5e. Barbarians are no longer illiterate.


On top of that, does game rules support the use of an instrument for non bard characters? Is there anything you can do with a guitar playing barbarian that is not considered a houserule?

Yes, proficiency in a musical instrument can be used to make a check in town that will make you enough money to live at a higher Lifestyle rating than other characters.

[Mrmox42]

castanets

The thought of a mighty Barbarian with castanets made me smile. :smallbiggrin:

[noce]

Nothing says you can't pick your own voice as your instrument either, or your body.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1222846091734&permPage=1

[Gritmonger]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1222846091734&permPage=1

I was actually thinking more like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXaOMOQCyL4
Though, watching it, it isn't really that much more dignified...