[PF] Ninja's vanishing trick+ invisible blade+ legendary item's undetectable ability

[Kol Korran]

In my game we are trying mythic rules. One of the characters is a 10th level ninja, which just took the "invisible blade" master trick, which enables her to have improved invisibility for a lot of the time.

The player found something interesting to possibly take upon gaining a mythic tier. He plantain creating a legendary solely for this item ability:
"Undetecable- This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while*invisible. While*invisible*and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method."
The player thinks (and so it seems to me) that if he is invisible, he cannot be located by any means.

My questions:
1) does this ability protects even from true seeing, blind sense, blind sight, scent, and the like?
2) how would you counter this? I'm thinking dispel magic, glitter dust, and area spells. Other ideas?

[Psyren]

I wouldn't allow straight up undetectability. A caster level check to overcome the invisibility maybe, or you need True Seeing rather than See Invis (or even both of these two combined), and maybe a Darkstalker-esque "even with blindsense/blindsight you need a Perception check" - stuff along those lines. but no hard-and-fast/insurmountable "no" buttons for the PCs.

If you're going to use the property as written, the answers to your questions are:

(1) Yes, it would defeat all those things.
(2) Area effects that don't care where they are are still useful (provided you position them right), as well as touching them.

[Ravens_cry]

Given how many things have true seeing or some way of defeating G, Invisibility, I'd let them have it. It's their big trick, and it comes with the downside that they can't be healed except by area effects or UMD'd wands they use on themselves.

[Psyren]

Given how many things have true seeing or some way of defeating G, Invisibility, I'd let them have it. It's their big trick, and it comes with the downside that they can't be healed except by area effects or UMD'd wands they use on themselves.

They can turn it off between combats to be seen/healed/buffed by the party; the undetectability only lasts as long as they're invisible (and wielding/wearing the item.)

[deuxhero]

You're using the Mythic rules and he's a non-caster spending resources in a system that lets caster cast their entire list spontaneously by default. Let him have it.

He can't be detected by any means, but invisibility purge stops his invisibility.

[Kol Korran]

Oh, I was intending to let him have it, as you say. He is currently the weakest character in the group. I just wondered if I got the description right, and what to do to challenge him here and then. I don't want him to feel I'm ignoring him, even if I can't detect him...

[georgie_leech]

Oh, I was intending to let him have it, as you say. He is currently the weakest character in the group. I just wondered if I got the description right, and what to do to challenge him here and then. I don't want him to feel I'm ignoring him, even if I can't detect him...

When you start lobbing AoE's or otherwise reacting to the fact that no one can find him, make sure to have the NPC's call it out. "That invisible somebody is wreaking havoc! Everyone get ready to stab the moment you feel their blade!" or the like.

[Kudaku]

Dev commentary on Undetectable: (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoi5?Ruling-on-Mythic-Adventures#6)



There's an FAQ request about this floating around somewhere.

There are three schools of thought:

1) The character is undetectable by any means (including Perception skill checks, blind sight, tremorsense and true seeing).

2) The character is undetectable by magic, but senses work normally.

3) The character is immune to "detect" spells and any effects based on the scry spell.

Pick your preference. I waver between 1 and 2.

Yes, it is 1. Because mythic.

Note that he can still be found using brute force approaches, mind. Invisibility Purge, Glitterdust etc all "find" an invisible target as normal. Many AoE spells don't care about invisibility (though evasion might help with that). One particular note is Fear and Stun - Undetectable is only active while the item is in physical contact with the user, and being stunned or panicked means the character drops anything held.

[galan]

@kudaku do remember about the stun/fear that said legendary item doesn't have to be held. while the ability is called invisible blade, i was assuming the item to be a ring :smallwink:

[Spore]

Mythic rules. Making nuking the whole damn place with mindwarped burst fire blasts (word of power: Fireball, targetting will save) worthwhile.

[Fouredged Sword]

When you start lobbing AoE's or otherwise reacting to the fact that no one can find him, make sure to have the NPC's call it out. "That invisible somebody is wreaking havoc! Everyone get ready to stab the moment you feel their blade!" or the like.

He is undetectable. You can touch him, but you can't FEEL him. He cannot be detected. You notice you are cut AFTER his blade leaves your flesh. Even if he grapples you, you can't TELL that someone is grappling you, the DM just starts making grapple checks every time you try to do something.

[georgie_leech]

He is undetectable. You can touch him, but you can't FEEL him. He cannot be detected. You notice you are cut AFTER his blade leaves your flesh. Even if he grapples you, you can't TELL that someone is grappling you, the DM just starts making grapple checks every time you try to do something.

I see nothing anywhere that suggests you don't know you're being hurt by him; even if you don't know where he is exactly, it's a bit of a stretch to say you wouldn't notice that you've just had your arm slashed or your kidney stabbed or whatever, if only because it's suddenly not working as well. Readied Action: Attack the creature that attacks me would get you an attack, albeit with the usual 50% miss chance. Likewise, it would take an impressively stupid creature to be unable to figure out that if they're being grappled, something is doing the grappling. Maybe they won't notice when it starts. As soon as they find it difficult to move though, they'll know something's up, if not the exact source. "Something's grabbing me!" would be a useful thing to shout anyway. Maybe they have a spellcaster. :smalltongue: