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View Full Version : Wild West RPG - Simulationism vs. Narrativism (lets discuss RPGamability of Westerns)



Cikomyr
2015-03-02, 07:07 PM
I kind of was bit by the Wild West bug recently (i blame my watching of Wild West exodus miniatures), and i got thinking about GMing a Wild West with steampunk and fantasy elements.

Core premisce: the players are Pinkerton Agents/Bounty Hunters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PinkertonDetective) hired by the Train Company ("The Company") to investiguate a Train Robbery, and recover the stolen goods. The Bounty is 40,000$

Thing is, it was wholesale train robbery: the train itself was robbed! As they dig deeper, the Agents will eventually discover dirty secrets the Company would rather keep secret, and they will have the choice of turning their back... And feel the wrath of the other Pinkerton Goons.

Replace native americans with Elves, replace black peoples as Orcs (to better have player play out genuine rascism, or at least rascist stereotypes that were commonplace at the time). Yes, there was a Civil War. And yes, it was to free the Orcs from slavery.

Thing is.. What sort of system do you think would be better? Is it better to go for lethal gunfights, or hit point sponges?

What are the rules of a Western Duel? Do somebody give a signal? Why are both fighters wait for thr other to make the first move?

How far the steam punk area do you think would befit such a campaign? Would Warforged-like Steambots be appropriate? They'd probably clunky and slow, but also immune to bullets. Youd have to use.melee weapons or explosives to pry their armor open...

What tropes do you think befit the Westerns but isnt applicable to an RPG?
What tropes do you think is a perfect blend of Western and RPG?

What sort of characters would you like to play in that sort of setting?

Etc... Lets discuss!!

goto124
2015-03-02, 07:26 PM
DnD is a Western dressed up as a medieval fantasy.

Cealocanth
2015-03-03, 12:53 AM
It's a great idea (which is why it has already been done). I have a fair warning that adapting fantasy systems to new genres tends to produce games that are lackluster in quality. With that in mind, let us proceed.

If it hasn't already been pointed out, Deadlands pretty much does everything you're trying to do in an RPG. It's an alternate history western with steampunk, horror, and fantasy elements all incorporated into a well developed universe which allows for a number of different campaign types and character archetypes.

If you're dead set on making your own game though, then I would try for a system with a grittier "hit or miss" kind of combat, the kind where you can get a lucky roll and a player dies, rather than the kind where you have to sink seven bullets in a guy before he falls. The West was supposed to be dangerous, but the people out there are supposed to be tough-as-nails as well. Still, with the current amount of bullets that d20 tends to allow, it doesn't contribute well to the gunslinger archetype.

Careful with steampunk. While the real Old West was as closely tied to the industrial revolution as the Golden Age of Piracy was tied to ships, steampunk elements can quickly overpower a campaign if you're not careful. The technology can be out there, but it needs to be treated like 'newfangled' technology that really is too expensive for most people to get out in the west. Sure you may see a rich or experienced cowpoke with a gattling-pistol or a steam-powered horse, but for the setting to stay with that down home Western feel, technology needs to be old, dirty, and everything needs to be done with the sweat of your back and a good dose of luck.

Racism is tied very closely to the Old West, it can't be avoided without people asking questions. However, this is a game. You may feel so inclined to make your Western world as historically accurate as possible, including a slave trade, a civil war, and unimaginably brutal treatment of natives, but you need to remember that this is a game. Fake racism usually ends up being just as, if not more, offensive as real racism. Unless everyone in your group is absolutely, positively okay with it, just leave racism out of the picture, or handwave it and say that your civil war went on for so long that both sides were required to call upon members of all races and genders to fight, and quickly civil rights movements gained grounds on both sides.

In a Western setting, there are numerous characters you can play. To name a scant few, there's the gunslinger, the outlaw, the preacher, the drifter, the dandy, the escort, the gambler, the cowboy, the prospector, the hunter, and the native shaman. The characters I've played in this type of game were a crackshot buffalo hunter with a sadistic side, a good soul who wanders the West with his sister in hopes of righting the wrongs in the worlds, a paleontologist ever on search for his next big dig and his gateway to fame, and a mad scientist from Back East whose experimentation involving reanimating the dead got him outcast into the West.

Cikomyr
2015-03-03, 08:41 AM
Wow. Thanks a lot. What a great reply!

I hear you about your warning of not overdoing the Steampunk. And about rascism; its something i should clear with my players beforehand.

I heard a lot about Deadland. But isnt it supposed to be extremely complicated? Like, a simple duel could lead to wound infection, dysentery and death? :-P

I guess it DOES make sense if you want a "gritty gunslinger" game...

I also got my answer regarding duelling. The point of drawing last is that it makes your use of self-defense more justified XD

I also love your description of archetypes. And i agree; there should be room for wide-eye idealists who seek a bright Future in the Frontier, but also for those who just want to get out of the Great Cities. Hmm... I guess Pinkerton could potentially hire just anyone they damn wanted. Or maybe i should review.my game premise?

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-03, 09:02 AM
DnD is a Western dressed up as a medieval fantasy.

For added hilarity, 1st Edition DMG has rules for crossing over rules and characters from then-current Western RPG called Boot Hill. So yeah, this is a thing that's been done.

That said, crossing fantasy with Westerns holds little appeal to me. I'd just rather play in WIld West proper without the added fantastic baggage. To adress the thread title, I think it'd be easier to implent Westerns, the genre, using some sort of rules-light drama game that allows for easy replication of story structures from well-known movies. Following a D&D-like rules paradigm for frontier-crawling would lead to realistically short lifespans in the hands of disease, snakes and bandits, as there'd be no easy healthcare. On the other hand, the more I think of it, such a frontier crawl sounds increasingly appealing. Start with a group of settlers and go downhill from there...

Cikomyr
2015-03-03, 09:14 AM
For added hilarity, 1st Edition DMG has rules for crossing over rules and characters from then-current Western RPG called Boot Hill. So yeah, this is a thing that's been done.

That said, crossing fantasy with Westerns holds little appeal to me. I'd just rather play in WIld West proper without the added fantastic baggage. To adress the thread title, I think it'd be easier to implent Westerns, the genre, using some sort of rules-light drama game that allows for easy replication of story structures from well-known movies. Following a D&D-like rules paradigm for frontier-crawling would lead to realistically short lifespans in the hands of disease, snakes and bandits, as there'd be no easy healthcare. On the other hand, the more I think of it, such a frontier crawl sounds increasingly appealing. Start with a group of settlers and go downhill from there...

GM: okay. The goal of this campaign is for you to reach Oregon
Players: okay! What will be our reward?
GM: bloody surviving!

Mr. Mask
2015-03-04, 02:32 AM
Western Duel: Most duels in the old west didn't have rules. It was more a social situation escalating to the point where someone pulls a gun and starts shooting--sometimes days later in a surprise retaliation. As for why you'd wait for the other guy to reach for his gun, that's normally because you're hoping it doesn't escalate to the point of firing, or because you're just so nervous and busy trying to regulate your pulse that you hesitate. There's also the complication of when you're law enforcement, or you may even want to be able to claim self defence that they reached for their gun. Although, in the older black powder pistol duels, they did tend to be very formalized, with someone dropping a handkerchief to signal to fire.

Geddy2112
2015-03-04, 02:57 AM
I like the idea of having mostly mundane PC's having to deal with Mundane problems. Oregon Trail would be a cakewalk with a 1st level druid and 1st level wizard. What makes these games fun is the hardship of reality. You can still add in sorcery and steampunk, but when creating pure water is a true world breaking power and not just a cantrip it has a different effect on your world.

My view on the wild west is one of harsh, unforgiving environments and civilizations. I would certainly lean for lethality of gunfights, but also disease, dehydration and a random animal attack being lethal.

I suggest using Call of Cthulhu in the early setting (Late 1800's) for your campaign. You have the mechanics for steampunk and magic, but it will be exceptions and not the norm. 2 shots from a gun kill as fast as a snakebite. Wild shamans and occultists can get magic but at a price. Steampunk elements are cool, but go light and make them novelties as Cealocanth said.

dream
2015-03-04, 01:34 PM
I kind of was bit by the Wild West bug recently (i blame my watching of Wild West exodus miniatures), and i got thinking about GMing a Wild West with steampunk and fantasy elements.

Core premisce: the players are Pinkerton Agents/Bounty Hunters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PinkertonDetective) hired by the Train Company ("The Company") to investiguate a Train Robbery, and recover the stolen goods. The Bounty is 40,000$

Thing is, it was wholesale train robbery: the train itself was robbed! As they dig deeper, the Agents will eventually discover dirty secrets the Company would rather keep secret, and they will have the choice of turning their back... And feel the wrath of the other Pinkerton Goons.

Replace native americans with Elves, replace black peoples as Orcs (to better have player play out genuine rascism, or at least rascist stereotypes that were commonplace at the time). Yes, there was a Civil War. And yes, it was to free the Orcs from slavery.

Thing is.. What sort of system do you think would be better? Is it better to go for lethal gunfights, or hit point sponges?

What are the rules of a Western Duel? Do somebody give a signal? Why are both fighters wait for thr other to make the first move?

How far the steam punk area do you think would befit such a campaign? Would Warforged-like Steambots be appropriate? They'd probably clunky and slow, but also immune to bullets. Youd have to use.melee weapons or explosives to pry their armor open...

What tropes do you think befit the Westerns but isnt applicable to an RPG?
What tropes do you think is a perfect blend of Western and RPG?

What sort of characters would you like to play in that sort of setting?

Etc... Lets discuss!!
These are all expectation-related questions for a GM & the group of players. Here, you get such a wide field of answers the end result is something unplayable, perhaps.

obryn
2015-03-04, 01:39 PM
For added hilarity, 1st Edition DMG has rules for crossing over rules and characters from then-current Western RPG called Boot Hill. So yeah, this is a thing that's been done.
Murlynd - he of the magic item, "Murlynd's Spoon" - was a literal cowboy paladin from Earth's Old West who campaigned in Greyhawk and became a quasi-deity. IIRC, he was Don Kaye's character in Gary's game, but don't hold me to that.

Vitruviansquid
2015-03-04, 02:18 PM
I'm in agreement with Cealocanth on the issue of HP. DnD style hit points have got to go, or you will never be able to get those tense stand-off situations where the sheriff and the outlaw are staring each other down on the dusty road.

To be perfectly frank, I think it'd be much more troublesome to try to build a Wild West RPG out of DnD than it would be to build one from the ground up. DnD's got way too many mechanics cleverly designed to make the game feel medieval.

DnD's assumption about how weapons work don't make as much sense in a Western, because you don't want to exchange gunfire in the same way DnD heroes will exchange sword blows.

DnD's assumptions about alignment come from a simpler time, when you could tell who was good or evil based on the deity they worshiped or the family they came from and you were given a free pass to smite evil. A game about the Wild West must have an alignment system with some more ambiguity (or drop alignment altogether, if you've never been a fan)

DnD's dungeons would also tend not to work in westerns. If you find yourself at the outlaws' hideout or Natives' camp, the chances are probably nil that it would be a booby-trapped multi-story dungeon, and even if it was, gunfire is so loud and violent that there's nothing to keep every enemy in the dungeon from rushing at you the moment you started fighting the first guards.

And so on, and so forth.

Mr. Mask
2015-03-04, 03:33 PM
If they like DnD's system, it wouldn't be hard to port it to the wild west. Find some gun stats for d20, potentially houserule buffs for melee in the name of balance, refluff the +1 bonuses to new technological marvels rather than swords of ancient kings, and cut back on traditional sorcerer/wizard classes (using some sourcebook alchemist or steam engineer or something to replace their role). If you want to play a more genuine wild west experience, go ahead, I recommend it. But if the GM and players like DnD, they shouldn't exclude it as an option.

Cikomyr
2015-03-04, 03:56 PM
I was more thinking of a core system similar to WFRP or Dark Heresy. More lethal..

Mr. Mask
2015-03-04, 04:00 PM
Think you can convert it to the wild west?

Cikomyr
2015-03-04, 05:01 PM
Hmmm.. Probably.. Cant be that hard.. I sure know WFRP firearms are extremely deadly (best of 2d10 +4 damage).

Add in more variety of available firearms to reflect period guns, more reliable firearms (but steampunk guns as reliable as WFRP guns). Go dig a few talents and mechanics from Dark Heresy.. You might have a game :)

But i think i will dig Deadlands at least once. Thr whole "card game as initiative order" really intrigues me. Also, poker chips. Chips are good!

Mr. Mask
2015-03-04, 05:20 PM
Sounds like a plan. Good luck with it! You can update this thread with questions or start a new one if you need advice, later.

Cikomyr
2015-03-06, 07:53 AM
After checking up the original Deadland, i have to say i am a bit disapointed by the card-combat system. Not what i expected. A bit too clumsy in my mind, and the Black Joker rule really make things weird.

I think id like to try to create my own kind of card-outcome rule set. Probably based around poker combinations for better outcomes, ill have to think of it.

nyjastul69
2015-03-06, 09:25 AM
I know I'm late to the party, but I enjoyed running a game of Aces &Eights (http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/). It's more of a straight foward western than Deadlands. It is set in a alternate earth timeline.

Beleriphon
2015-03-06, 09:39 AM
I was going to throw in the Aces & Eights as well. The combat wheel is pretty awesome. You drop an acetate overlay over an shillouette of a cowboy to determine where you hit, aiming at the head will kill, but good luck with a wicked lucky roll. It actually simulates aiming at centre mass being your best bet pretty dang well.

LibraryOgre
2015-03-06, 09:57 AM
While I'm a Kenzer fanboy, I haven't played Aces and Eights. I would probably suggest that Savage Worlds would be a good option... you can import stuff from SW Deadlands, it's got basic rules for elves, magic, and such, and should work fairly well overall, without being a terribly complicated system.

Toilet Cobra
2015-03-06, 11:46 AM
There are surely better systems, but I ran a weird west game using 3.5 rules and it worked fine. It wasn't completely perfect but it gave the players a lot of options and the ability to fight monsters as well as get in gun fights in a frontier town. We used homebrewed rules & feats for firearms and dynamite. The game and the town were called "Witchwood" and we still remember it fondly.

A good group and a willing spirit can overcome the system's flaws. Hell, we played 4th ed for like three years.

Jay R
2015-03-07, 10:41 AM
What are the rules of a Western Duel? Do somebody give a signal? Why are both fighters wait for thr other to make the first move?

The shootout as we think of it is a Hollywood invention. There were certainly shootouts, but standing there and waiting for the other to draw is to build tension in the movie.

But any old west game is based on the legends, not the facts. As the editor in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance said, "This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." So here are the basic principles.

Drawing on somebody and killing them is murder. The good guy won't do it - ever. The bad guy knows that if he doesn't draw quickly and cleanly, or if he draws and then misses, his target has time to draw and possibly shoot first. They are also each waiting for the other one to back down. Also, if the bad guy's eyes or movement reveal that he's about to draw, he gives his opponent more time to draw.

When the bad guy finally decides he is ready to draw, he draws his gun and tries to fire. If it's early in the movie, facing a decent but unimpressive opponent, he kills the victim. If it's at the end of the movie, facing the hero, the orchestra crescendos, and the hero successfully outdraws him and wins.

In the TV show, Alias Smith and Jones, they showed how fast Kid Curry was by never showing him move. Cut back and forth from him to the villain back to him back to the villain. The villain starts to draw and stops, wide-eyed, with his gun not yet out of his holster. Cut to Kid Curry unmoving but with his gun pointed at the villain. It was very effective cinema. I'm not sure how to make it an effective gaming mechanic.

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-07, 02:38 PM
I'm in agreement with Cealocanth on the issue of HP. DnD style hit points have got to go, or you will never be able to get those tense stand-off situations where the sheriff and the outlaw are staring each other down on the dusty road.

Not really. Just add Saving Throw Vs. Death to guns in addition damage, or use rules for Massive Damage and lower the hitpoint treshold for triggering it to something that comes up reasonably often with guns.

As a funny bit of historical trivia, often it wasn't the injury from being fired at that was lethal - but blood poisoning caused by either grease and dirt on the bullets, or other infection of the wound. There were (and to extent, still are) case of people who were shot quite a number of times and only went down to afterbattle complications.

Knaight
2015-03-07, 02:56 PM
What are the rules of a Western Duel? Do somebody give a signal? Why are both fighters wait for thr other to make the first move?

On this, I have seen an effective mechanic for things. It's a gambling skill mechanic, in which you have a skill which lets you roll and add however many dice (d6 by default, but it doesn't have to be). That is your basic roll. You can try to do better, and as long as you roll a number you haven't yet you add it to your total. If you roll a number you have, your total sets to 0. So, generally you try to manage risk, in a high stakes betting game. This works for most things surprisingly well. Opposed rolls work the same way, with the person behind generally being the one to try and shoot for a higher number. If you lose the roll, the amount you lose by matters (it transferred directly into damage)

That game also has a mechanic originally for jousting. In that particular case, trying to do better when losing was mandatory. Everything escalated until somebody flubbed a roll and gets a zero total. That exact same rule would work beautifully for the classic western duel. The case where people can actually cut their losses works better for just about every other type of gunfight.

LibraryOgre
2015-03-07, 03:29 PM
Not really. Just add Saving Throw Vs. Death to guns in addition damage, or use rules for Massive Damage and lower the hitpoint treshold for triggering it to something that comes up reasonably often with guns.


Hackmaster has a "Threshold of Pain"; if you take more than that amount of damage in a single blow, you have to make a Trauma Save by rolling under 1/2 your Con on a d20p. If you fail (more than 1/2 your con), you are incapacitated for 5 seconds for every point you fail by.

It takes 10 seconds to Coup de Grace. It takes a multiclass thief 5 seconds; thieves can do it in 3, and assassins in 2.

Beleriphon
2015-03-07, 06:01 PM
I like D20 Moderns rule for massive damage. If you took your Con in damage in a single attack then you had to make a Fort save or drop to -1 HP and start bleeding out. There's a reason guns that fired .50BMG rounds (2d12 base) were the bane of everything. The save was pretty easy to make though, but I figure its the thought that counts.

Cikomyr
2015-03-09, 07:03 PM
Oh well. I did it and damned myself.

I went and watched For a Few Dollar More. Last of the Dollar Trilogy I watched... man it was Glorious and Grim.. :smallcool:

I went and did some research for some other of the best Westerns (spaghetti or otherwise). I found the series of movies about... Sartana. Apparently it's quite clever and quasi-steampunk, as the titular character use plenty of James Bond grade gadgets as well as guns to defeat the baddies.

I also heard about Clint Eastwood's own movie, High Plain Drifters. It's on the list.

nyjastul69
2015-03-10, 12:15 AM
Oh well. I did it and damned myself.

I went and watched For a Few Dollar More. Last of the Dollar Trilogy I watched... man it was Glorious and Grim.. :smallcool:

I went and did some research for some other of the best Westerns (spaghetti or otherwise). I found the series of movies about... Sartana. Apparently it's quite clever and quasi-steampunk, as the titular character use plenty of James Bond grade gadgets as well as guns to defeat the baddies.

I also heard about Clint Eastwood's own movie, High Plain Drifters. It's on the list.

I highly recommend High Plains Drifter. My favorite Clint Eastwood western is Unforgiven. It's probably my favorite western of all time actually.

Edit: When running a wester RPG I found TV serials such as Bonanza, Gunsmoke, Rawhide(did I mention I'm an Eastwood fan), etc. to be great sources for adventure ideas. They are a bit campy, but a great source of inspiration, lots to draw from.

My favorite western TV show, by far, is HBO's Deadwood. If you can get by the cussin', it's full of character, flavor, story, flavor and then some more flavor. Great acting as well. Top notch stuff IMO.

Cikomyr
2015-03-23, 08:04 AM
I would like to ask a question regarding Lawmen in the old west. From this wikipedia article (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfighter)


Despite idealistic portrayals in television, movies, and even in history books, very few lawmen/gunfighters could claim their law enforcement role as their only source of employment. Unlike contemporary peace officers, these lawmen generally pursued other occupations, often earning money as gamblers, business owners, or outlaws—as was the case with "Curly" Bill Brocius, who, while always referred to as an outlaw, served as a deputy sheriff under sheriff Johnny Behan. Many shootouts involving lawmen were caused by disputes arising from these alternative occupations, rather than the lawman's attempts to enforce the law.

I am having trouble understanding exaclty what is a "lawman". Is it a local official - a.k.a. a " Sheriff"? Or does it refer to State-sponsored law enforcement officials, like State or U.S. Marshalls? Were there lawmen travelling/operating incognito and still earning a (minimal) salary?

themaque
2015-03-23, 08:28 AM
Well, I'm a huge supporter of DEADLANDS myself. If you don't like the original system (philistine!) they have a simplified version for the SAVAGE WORLDS system that can be a lot of fun. This would also open you up the the plethora of pre-written material depending on how gritty or weird you are willing/wanting to go.

Joe the Rat
2015-03-23, 11:30 AM
I'll raise ya on Savage Worlds as well. "Wild West" as we know it is very much a cinematic setting, and SW makes for a better fit. And you can get dead real quick if you run out of plot armor.

Plus using poker chips for bennies. Very thematic.

LibraryOgre
2015-03-23, 05:40 PM
I am having trouble understanding exaclty what is a "lawman". Is it a local official - a.k.a. a " Sheriff"? Or does it refer to State-sponsored law enforcement officials, like State or U.S. Marshalls? Were there lawmen travelling/operating incognito and still earning a (minimal) salary?

As I understand it, yes. You'd have local sheriffs (who also ran a store, or owned a ranch), or traveling folks like Marshalls who would have their own income, but would also function as officers of the law when necessary.

Mr. Mask
2015-03-23, 07:15 PM
And essentially, one town's outlaw might be another town's hero. Some bank robbers kept their money in a bank (a different one). I haven't totally confirmed those fact, so take them with a grain of salt.

LibraryOgre
2015-03-23, 07:17 PM
And essentially, one town's outlaw might be another town's hero. Some bank robbers kept their money in a bank (a different one). I haven't totally confirmed those fact, so take them with a grain of salt.

The poor Missouri farmers knew that Frank and Jesse did the best they could... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hk41aq2Klk)

Aidan305
2015-04-03, 04:48 PM
And essentially, one town's outlaw might be another town's hero.

Pretty much this exactly. Outlaws were generally known as having a reputation for being good with a gun, and a widespread reputation of being good with a gun could do a lot for crime prevention. Take, for example, the case of Milt Yarberry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_J._Yarberry)

I'm currently running Western themed campaign using the Deadlands: Reloaded rules and it's been working really well for me. A little over a year so far and I've had no problems with it.

Unseenmal
2015-04-04, 07:50 AM
No one has mentioned Sidewinder : Recoiled (http://www.doghouserules.net/recoiled/recoiled.html) yet...is this on purpose? It's a D20 based Western campaign setting that you need to use with the D20 Modern books. Might be worth checking out.

EDIT: Wait...it helps to read the thread thoroughly...I just saw that you are trying to avoid the HP sponge style and have a more lethal style game. Still, the book might give you some ideas on where you want to go

FYI, I love Westerns....my favorite is still The Outlaw Josey Wales. But don't overlook the older ones with John Wayne (of course) or Audie Murphy. Lee Van Cleef even made some that he was the star of instead of being the bad guy (Barquero). Some of those are good too.

Beleriphon
2015-04-04, 08:11 AM
I am having trouble understanding exaclty what is a "lawman". Is it a local official - a.k.a. a " Sheriff"? Or does it refer to State-sponsored law enforcement officials, like State or U.S. Marshalls? Were there lawmen travelling/operating incognito and still earning a (minimal) salary?

Any and all of the above. Most of the time you'd be looking at a local Sheriff, which is an elected position in many places in the USA, who also worked owned a farm or ranch, or was maybe the barber. State and US Marshals are also options, but US Marshals had the distinct advantage of generally being better paid than state officers. Lawmen could also include Pinkerton agents, since at one the entire company was functionally employed by the US Government.

Cikomyr
2015-04-08, 08:18 PM
Not sure if this counts as Thread Necromancy... probably not..

I finally have my game! First session will be next Tuesday, so I have to prepare a few basics.

First of all, I was struggling a bit regarding what sort of overall thematic to give to the game/story I'd have. For example, B5's thematic was

killing your parents. Basically outgrowing those who want to take care of you.

I asked a friend, and she wrote something pretty nice:


well when i think of my favorite wild west themes, they're usually about civilization and how tenuous the social contract is. anywhere there's expansionism, you have a period of relative lawlessness, hence the west being "wild". You see this in Firefly often, how there isn't really rule of law many places, especially in deep space, though it's a ittle less marked in Firefly because of how present the central government is. But I would look to, what makes civilization? What makes rule of law stable and not corrupt? Most "white hat" westerns like to ask the question "how do you stay moral in a place where you can't count on the law to support you, where might makes right?" and that's also why you get a whole bunch of white hats who are badasses. Because they _have_ the might. And they're trying to make right but they're also using the might. If you are using might makes right but using it to reinforce morals that you believe are, well, moral, what stops you from going to far with it? From deciding that because you don't like fried cheese, you will thus ban fried cheese in town? There's lots of great angles to go with that. Expansionism is also a very important element to humanity, some of our freest, best societies ended up so because they were expansionist, and expanded past the reach of corruption, but either hadn't expanded so fast that they became lawless, or it didn't take too long for law to catch up with the borders.

Basically, I like the idea of a land being shaped by the actions of the PCs. It's not a static medieval world with an established social order; it's a frontier that you can shape and change with your actions and decisions. If the players start imposing their ways, then they will become nothing more than a mob rule (perhaps beloved and respected, or maybe feared, but nevertheless a mob rule).

Anyway. Here is what I have for a basic idea:

- the year is 1866, two year after the signature of the armistice between the Union and the Confederated States of America which ended the war in a Stalemate. A state of cold war exist between the two, and the frontier has becomed a contested territory between the two weakened american states and Mexico.
- the PCs are hired by the National Railroad Company to investigate a train theft - the entire train disappeared! A bounty of 50,000$ will be paid for the location and recovery of its entirety, with some discretion.

What the PCs don't know, it's that the Company, based in the Union (which has outlawed slavery) was carrying slaves in that missing trains. But not any sort of slaves; slaves with some magic potential. They were being carried on the Frontier so the Company would be able to perform certain... despicable actions on them in order to extract the magic potential, to use it for their own steampunkish ends.

(yes, I still plan on the slave-race to be Orcs, and the Native Americans to be Elves, just to help put some racial prejudice in the story).

The reason the CSA managed to reach a stalemate with the Union is that they recently discovered a process to extract magical potential from slaves, and use it themselves to power advanced Steampunk technology, which gave them sufficiently of an edge to win a few key batles during the Civil War. They are doing more and more blood sacrifice to power these technologies, and are advancing in power every year. they might even overshadow the Union soon. The Company's current plot is merely a desperate attempt to try to catch up, and they used captured freedorcs in the process.



The spoiled part will be slowly, progressively unveiled. Obviously, that's only the initial Grand Pictures. Savage xenophobic elves, dangerous desesperados, bounty hunters, the Union Cavalry.. all of those will have a chance to stake a claim in the Frontier and decide what sort of land it shall turn into.


Now... the thing is, I have no idea who should be the initial Trainthieves. The Mexicans? Some independant bandits? The Confederates? The Elves?

LibraryOgre
2015-04-09, 12:41 PM
Not sure if this counts as Thread Necromancy... probably not..

The Mod Wonder: Necromancy is more than 45 days dead.

Ravian
2015-04-10, 09:49 AM
What if it was the slaves themselves? I'm not entirely sure how you plan to handle magic but what if one accidentally teleported the train off the tracks somewhere with their magic and they overpowered the guards? Have the players find a small frontier town being raided by what appears to be an orkish gang of bandits, some of whom seem to have magic powers. They try to track them down but find that their trail just disappears without a trace. They investigate the whole magic slave angle and eventually find a way to track teleportation (some steampunk gizmo should work fine) It eventually leads them back to the badlands where they find the Orcs have established a rudimentary settlement around the train (which is probably somewhere precarious for extra drama, like across a canyon). The orcs had a power struggle after they overpowered the guards and the ones in charge have decided that they want nothing more to do with humans. So they've turned to banditry to sustain themselves, gradually learning to use their magic to gain an edge in the meantime.

Of course all this ends up with the PC's having to make a decision between leaving them in peace or turning them over to their likely horrific fates.

Huh... I might just use this idea for my own Deadlands campaign. I'll probably change a few things to match the setting, but individuals with hidden magic potential are already a part of the deadlands universe (they're called tempests)

Cikomyr
2015-04-12, 10:37 PM
That could work. But I was wondering; if about a dozen or so of freed "magical" orcs can teleport a train, why hasn't it happened in the CSA already? Why wouldn't there have been some sort of magical accident in a place where there's even more orcs, magical and none...

Hmmm... perhaps it has something to do with local Elven magic..?

Ohhhh!

How about the train track passed through some sort of sacred land of the elves. The Company kind of did not cared about the Elves' opinion about not to build a railway on there, and managed some sort of... forced compromise where the railroad was the ONLY thing that would be allowed (and the trains), but no building.

Suddenly explain why there's a no-man's-land where the train could have disappeared.

It's not the Elves themselves who made the train disappear, but the slaves, as per your idea. However, they managed to.. somehow, awaken the local spirits and free the train itself.

That will force the players to go and deal with the Elves. Also could have the Orcs not respect the spirits of the Elves, and maybe bind one onto the locomotive, angering the local spirits and REALLY pissing the Elves off, who think all Mechanic-users will end up as evil.

Yhea.. I like your idea..