Making Summoning Fun(3.5)

[sambouchah]

I've learned that playing any sort of Summoner(be it Conjurer, Cleric, or Druid) kind of kills the fun for the rest of my group. I may have fun summoning several creatures to do my bidding, conjuring up Demons, and doing everything under the sun without me having to do more than wave my hands and say a few words. But sadly it makes everyone else at the table feel useless. So I've tried summoning only one creature at a time, using celestials and devils for information(and maybe as a slave), but still they dont enjoy it near as much as I do.

Any suggestions on how to make my summoning affinity fun for everyone at the table?

Thanks so much!
Sam

[Boost]

I've learned that playing any sort of Summoner(be it Conjurer, Cleric, or Druid) kind of kills the fun for the rest of my group. I may have fun summoning several creatures to do my bidding, conjuring up Demons, and doing everything under the sun without me having to do more than wave my hands and say a few words. But sadly it makes everyone else at the table feel useless. So I've tried summoning only one creature at a time, using celestials and devils for information(and maybe as a slave), but still they dont enjoy it near as much as I do.

Any suggestions on how to make my summoning affinity fun for everyone at the table?

Thanks so much!
Sam

First, why would your summoning impact your other players' fun? It's not like you're making them have more fun when you're fireballing enemies instead of sending summoned monsters after them, so I don't really see how it matters if the other players "enjoy" it.

But aside from that, I've played summoners before and I was able to use my summoning ability to benefit the group in a variety of ways. First, we were using a rule that let you customize your monster list (some variant rules are proposed in the Unearthed Arcana book, if I'm remembering correctly, though we tweaked them a bit). I was able to do things like summon creatures that acted as mounts for my allies, allowing them greater mobility on the battlefield. Sometimes I summoned flying mounts, such as hippogriffs, which allowed my allies to rain death on the foes from above.

Other times I summoned creatures that would help with my allies' battle strategies. We had a rogue, so I'd commonly summon something for him to flank with. Or summon a creature with Improved Grab and have it grapple an enemy, removing its Dex to AC and letting the rogue sneak attack. I also had a couple of summoned monsters with certain spell-like abilities that could sometimes stun or in other ways incapacitate enemies, which my allies found very helpful.

Then there's buffs and support spells. Even by RAW summoned monsters, there's a lot of summons you can use that can cast buffs on the party: Lantern Archon (Aid), Bralani (Blur, Wind Wall for defense, CSW for healing), Avoral (Dim Door to move the party around), Bone Devil (Fly, Major Image, Wall of Ice), Vrock (Heroism), and that's just to name a few. You could summon any of these creatures right before combat begins (say, while you're standing outside a door in the dungeon, about to bust through), and have it cast the buffs first thing, then use its combat abilities once the main fight breaks out. Your allies should appreciate being buffed up or having summoned monsters that can ferry them across the battlefield with ease.

You could probably find plenty more to do by looking at summon-oriented feats, or making some homemade feats, depending on your game and house rules. But there's plenty of options.

[Vhaidara]

First, why would your summoning impact your other players' fun? It's not like you're making them have more fun when you're fireballing enemies instead of sending summoned monsters after them, so I don't really see how it matters if the other players "enjoy" it.

Because summoned monsters take up more time. Fireball requires you to roll a couple d6 while the GM rolls a few saves. Summoning 1d4+1 Celestial badgers results in 1d4+1 creatures with move actions, an optional smite attack, and a 3 hit full attack. Takes a lot more time.

Generally, restrict yourself to fewer, stronger creatures. Don't summon things that you don't know well, and have a few tactics preplanned. Preroll some d20s for attack rolls (make sure you do this in the open, where the GM can see it). Plan your turn during other people's turns.

Another option I've seen, if your group has high enough system mastery for this to be viable, is to toss control of some of your minions to the other players. Let them control them to set up flanks and the like with their own characters.

[JDL]

The worst part about summoner builds is that your turn slows to a crawl as you resolve all of your creature's actions. Your other friends at the table have nothing to do for several minutes while you figure out every creature's attack bonus, damage rolls, etc.

At our table we have a houserule that any summoned creature, minion or NPC ally's turn gets controlled by a player other than the one that's commanding it. This keeps the other players in the game and lets them roll their dice more often instead of sitting most of the round out. Technically the DM should control summons, but as they are usually also juggling several enemies at the same time it's usually easiest to hand over control to one of the players instead.

[Boost]

Because summoned monsters take up more time. Fireball requires you to roll a couple d6 while the GM rolls a few saves. Summoning 1d4+1 Celestial badgers results in 1d4+1 creatures with move actions, an optional smite attack, and a 3 hit full attack. Takes a lot more time.



This never came up in my game. I always had the stats for my most commonly used summoned monsters (plus adjustments from augment summoning, etc) on hand for quick access. And if I had 4 creatures with 3 attacks each, I just grabbed 12d20 and rolled all the attacks at once, then rolled damage dice for as many as hit. Never took me longer to calculate damage than it does for someone to add up fireball dice.

[Amphetryon]

I've learned that playing any sort of Summoner(be it Conjurer, Cleric, or Druid) kind of kills the fun for the rest of my group. I may have fun summoning several creatures to do my bidding, conjuring up Demons, and doing everything under the sun without me having to do more than wave my hands and say a few words. But sadly it makes everyone else at the table feel useless. So I've tried summoning only one creature at a time, using celestials and devils for information(and maybe as a slave), but still they dont enjoy it near as much as I do.

Any suggestions on how to make my summoning affinity fun for everyone at the table?

Thanks so much!
Sam

I tend to use a very focused summoning list. I have one creature (type and subtype) I'll summon for fights, one I'll summon for aerial scouting, one for burrowing or other odd movement methods, and one for skills. This generally minimizes the amount of extra time I have to use monopolizing play, which in turn minimizes bad feelings.

[georgie_leech]

If the problem is making the other players feel useless, try using your summons as support more than beatsicks or meatshields. Rather than have them go in for the kill, maybe they trip or grapple a dangerous foe so the Fighter can kill it, for instance, or to set up flanks. Similar to the God Wizard's main point, if you use your summons to make your party members awesome, they'll have more fun with them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Another option I've seen, if your group has high enough system mastery for this to be viable, is to toss control of some of your minions to the other players. Let them control them to set up flanks and the like with their own characters.
That's a pretty good idea.

[sambouchah]

I used to play with a group with six people and a DM, and I played a summoner for quite some time. The DM asked me to reroll because I was draining the fun for him by disabling(using trip/grapple) or flanking for the rest of the party. I rerolled and everyone had LESS fun when I played a Crusader except the DM. I don't play with them anymore however and am thinking of playing a summon specialist in the new group, using suggestions from you all.
Thank you all for the help, I appreciate it.
Hopefully all goes well! Any particular summons you would suggest to increase fun?

[daremetoidareyo]

imbued summoning + alienist is a lot of fun, especially if you figure out a way to get some summon nature's allies on your list.

Some of my favorites are: mountain stance + dire weasels, caster level bonus to grapple checks, which the weasels use for con drain. heck yeah.

jaws of the moray + 1d3 or more fiendish/pseudonatural hawks. I like to imagine these hawks screeching down at their opponents, talons first, and then their necks protrude, and...ARE THOSE TEETH? and BAM, these three hawks are all attached to them, flapping their wings maniacally.

babau slime + crocodiles Acid grappling.

fins to feet + fiendish shark (need to cast airbreathing next turn though...)

scorpion tail + 1d3 pseudonatural owls (TRUESTRIKE!)

unicorn horn or arms of plenty +celestial big cat (add a gore attack to that pounce, mofo)

If you can get venomfire, all those squishy snakes and centipedes become dangerous.

[Turk Mannion]

I am playing a shaper psion in my current game. The key is to be prepared with the stats and your actions each turn. Since I summon virtually the same construct each time, I have simply created a separate character sheet for it, with all bonuses and modifiers already designed. Any spell that affects it is noted in the same way in which I note it on my own sheet.

I second the advice to make your summoned creature more of a support character. Mine is used for tripping, flanking and to soak up damage when the tank has to back off or a new target comes along. Damage is secondary and makes very little impact. But my team mates love having that summoned construct on the table.

[Bullet06320]

This never came up in my game. I always had the stats for my most commonly used summoned monsters (plus adjustments from augment summoning, etc) on hand for quick access. And if I had 4 creatures with 3 attacks each, I just grabbed 12d20 and rolled all the attacks at once, then rolled damage dice for as many as hit. Never took me longer to calculate damage than it does for someone to add up fireball dice.

this right here helps a lot, I use index cards with all the stats of the common stuff I summon, and I make a new one if I summon something different for whatever circumstance I need, makes for much easier reference while planning my turn while other people are taking thiers, keeps the flipping through books during your turn to a bare minimun

[Darrin]

Another option I've seen, if your group has high enough system mastery for this to be viable, is to toss control of some of your minions to the other players. Let them control them to set up flanks and the like with their own characters.

I'd try combining this with the optional rule to customize the monster list so that the same creature always shows up. Build this creature as an NPC, and then assign them to the other players. So when you summon a Musteval, it's Geronimo-Stiltonesque nebbish academic named "Jerry" who doesn't like getting his paws dirty. The Fire Mephit answers to Iggy and is always making sarcastic comments and complaining about the cold weather. Get the other players to come up with unique personality quirks so they are more interesting to play.

[Flickerdart]

Also consider that the creatures can serve as mounts for your party's melee warriors. If nothing else, they get +1 to-hit from higher ground.

[sambouchah]

Alienist always seemed fun, I may try that out this time around.

What book is imbued summoning in?

[daremetoidareyo]

Imbued summoning is in the PHB2 p.92

[Pluto!]

Imbued Summoning is also essentially purchasable with an item that costs under 5k gp in Magic Item Compendium. Summoner's Totem, I believe.

[Spore]

I used to play with a group with six people and a DM, and I played a summoner for quite some time. The DM asked me to reroll because I was draining the fun for him by disabling(using trip/grapple) or flanking for the rest of the party. I rerolled and everyone had LESS fun when I played a Crusader except the DM.

To be fair you can't compete with six people working together. You need someone like Sun Tzu (or how his name is spelled) to really challenge 6 players. It's not the summoning that's problematic but the amount of players. Nothing wrong with setting up your players.

My DM showed me that he can create mooks (well, elite soldiers I guess but still mooks by our group's standards) that can take a beating, resist maneuver attempts by summons and save versus many effects. Not that a 12-pack of 8th level fighters can stop a group of 4 characters on lv 12, but they have - together with their cleric - almost killed my monk.

[gorfnab]

This handbook Mastering the Malconvoker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6mliqvbpfuaquh6kml836m6h42&topic=2791.0) has a great list of the spell options available with summoned monsters. Also it's a great handbook on summoning in general and includes links to other summoning based handbooks.