Can anyone offer some advice regarding a naval campaign?

[Ephemeral_Being]

I've agreed to run a campaign for some friends of mine. And, when presented with a half-dozen options of what to play, they picked "Pirates." Which is great. It lets me pull out Stormwrack, I can use some aquatic monsters, and ship-to-ship combat is something different. I'm really excited to give it a shot.

But I'm curious how well the rules in Stormwrack work. These are a few things that I've been thinking over, in no particular order.


I was going to give them a boat to start with. Is the Caravel a good choice? Do I deduct the cost (10,000 gp) from their starting WBL? Do I give it a full complement of thirty people to start out? Just enough for one "watch" (7)? Does it come with weapons?
How horribly screwed will they be if their crew lacks a (for want of a DnD term) Windfinder? Is that going to be something they NEED to reliably get around? Or would it just make the campaign "easier?"
I'm getting the feeling that I need a REALLY good map to make these rules work. As in, an actual, honest-to-god sea chart. Does anyone know where I could get those?
I've already recommended that they take Profession (Sailor). And Knowledge (Geography). Anything else they might want? Are any skills 100% pointless?
I assume people have tried this before. What did you think? What do I need to change, and what do I need to make SURE I understand before the campaign really gets underway?
How much does a pirate/crewmember make per day? That doesn't seem to be in Stormwrack. And what stats should the crew have? 2nd-4th level fighters and rogues? The party is 7th level, if that helps.
These ship-to-ship weapons. They SUCK. A Balistae does 3d8 damage every 4 rounds? REALLY? The Ranger can do nearly 3x that in the same interval, and has a positive modifier to hit rather than a negative one. Why on earth would you ever want to use these ship-to-ship weapons?
How big of a deal is having certain equipment? A sextant, a compass, starcharts, that kind of thing. Some can obviously be replicated with magic. But others I assume can't.
What other books would be good to use for this? Is there something with, say, minimum requirements for what you'd need to feed a slave? Or was there ever errata published for Stormwrack?


That's all I can think of for now. If someone has tried Stormwrack out and has some tips, let me know.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm playing in a campaign now that is core plus Stormwrack. The party (currently 6th level) has hired on as part of the crew of a caravel. We are traveling on a mission, rather than being pirates, though.

The NPCs include a crew of commoners, low level fighters, rogues, etc. plus one or two roles the party don't have (captain, ship owner, navigator, etc). This seems to have enabled the DM to "railroad" the story by the decisions of our mentor/employer and the ship captain. It seems to work fairly well for narrative purposes.

The only limitation is that often the party members end up making decisions that the ship captain should probably make (e.g. Engage the enemy or try to flee).

One party member (my PC, a gnome druid) has ranks in profession sailor and knowledge geography (his background was growing up as cabin boy on a pirate ship).

At higher levels a druid has spells that control winds, weather, currents, too, which will be handy. Until then the DM just rolls for the weather and wind direction, which affect our progress. As DM I'm sure you can fudge that a bit for narrative purposes.

We are using Greyhawk maps, and they seem enough. Because an NPC is navigator, the ship's manifest contains the charts and tools we need.

Ballista can be more effective if you have a NPC crew member or two to load it while PC fires it. An enlarge person spell helps too. But yes, there are often better options.

Stormwrack's ship to ship combat rules seem to work pretty well for our purposes. Though we have only really had two battles that required manoevering the ship towards or away from other vessels.

I hope that helps some.

[Kol Korran]

I ran a very short naval campaign, though I did quite a lot of research for it. Im attaching through out this posts pages from the wiki we had for the game, with various info I had.

I was going to give them a boat to start with. Is the Caravel a good choice? Do I deduct the cost (10,000 gp) from their starting WBL? Do I give it a full complement of thirty people to start out? Just enough for one "watch" (7)? Does it come with weapons? [/quote]
The Caraval does seem like the default ship that Stormwrack aims at. Good ship, capable of ocean voyage as well, and large enough. Plus, it's amongst the only one for whom you have actual maps.

About maps and ship sizes. I've found that the lengths and such give on Stormwrack are nearly impossible to deal with. (Try using actual combats with 15+ crew on each side. There is just no room) I've researched and asked around, and made these somewhat alternate stats. (http://witchlingisles.pbworks.com/w/page/53158322/Ships%20and%20their%20handling). I suggest having two watches. One needs to seep after all. Also, I really, really advise to have the first adventure of them GETTING the ship. Makes them all the more attached to it. I don't think you need to deduct them the ship's basic cost (As it's supposed to be part of their "basic" equipment) but anything else will have to come from their wages. I suggest to let them have it at nearly the bare minimum. Part of the fun is getting to upgrade it! :smallbiggrin:


I'm getting the feeling that I need a REALLY good map to make these rules work. As in, an actual, honest-to-god sea chart. Does anyone know where I could get those? I don't think you need actual naval maps, just maps with lots of islands, an approximation of what is regarding somewhere else, and distances. We used this excellent map. (http://www.thirteen10.com/the6elements/setting/atlas/Starfall.pdf) For smaller locals, (Say a medium coast line) feel free to make maps of your own.


I assume people have tried this before. What did you think? What do I need to change, and what do I need to make SURE I understand before the campaign really gets underway?
There are some big questions you need to understand:
- First, what do the player expect by "pirates/ sea faring". This can mean a lot of stuff. Do they just want a ship to travel to different locals (ALA Star trek style). If so, then the ship is a taxi, and you don't need to get into all the mechanics. Do they want to focus on the sea aspects? (If so invest some research in currents, sea faring, navigation and weather hazards). Do they want the pirate life style? How much do they know of it? Or do they just want to roam the seas? (Sea later about a book of pirating)
- You need to get together with the group about how much you guys want to get into the Stormwrack rules. They are complex, tedious, can be annoying and can bog the game down. They certainly did in my game! :smallsigh: Decide on the level of detail the party is comfortable with, and simplify all else. I HIGHLY suggest you check out Path finder's Skull's and Shackles Adventure Path for inspiration both on campaign, and on a different, far more simplified take on sea faring rules.
- How much of a Sandbox do you want it to be? Given a ship, the party has much more freedom to travel than a land based party. Do you plan tons of hooks? Do you detail alots of settlements and islands? How much do they follow plot, and how much do they want to do their own thing? Piratign usually hints that the party wants to roam wild and do crazy things, are you prepared?
- What is the setting about? Sea faring and pirating can mean vastly differentthings on different worlds, different seas and terrains, and different concepts. Is it a fight against colonial empires? IS there a specific trade route? Maybe there is a war? Maybe there is an age of exploration? What settign does the party play in?

How much does a pirate/crewmember make per day? That doesn't seem to be in Stormwrack. And what stats should the crew have? 2nd-4th level fighters and rogues? The party is 7th level, if that helps. These are very specific on the setting. Merchant ships and navy ships crew members got paid something like 1-2 silvers a day, but these were slags. On pirate ships people got "shares" according to their role. In many ways pirate ships were far more equal and democratic. A small piece detailing conduct on piratign ship, taken from the book "Pirates!" (http://witchlingisles.pbworks.com/w/page/53074411/Crew%20members%20roles%20and%20code%20of%20conduct ) Though it seems like the crew is getting a big share, this only means you get to put big loot, only the crew get a big share of it, so you can keep in the WBL.

These ship-to-ship weapons. They SUCK. A Balistae does 3d8 damage every 4 rounds? REALLY? The Ranger can do nearly 3x that in the same interval, and has a positive modifier to hit rather than a negative one. Why on earth would you ever want to use these ship-to-ship weapons? The ship to ship weapons if I remember have two things going for them- range (Fare more than bows) and that their damage is needed to go over the ship's hardness (hardness 5 or 10, so arrows can barely if at all damage the ship). plus, the ship, as an object, suffer less damage from small piercing weapons like arrows and such. Basically the ship is invulnerable (almost) to hand held weapons. The low modifier to hit is offset by the ships abysmal AC.

Your big problem is not the weapons, but rather spells, especially ones with a long range. Fireball wrecks utter havoc in naval combat for example- killing most regular crew before gettign to the ship, making it impossible (Or nearly so) to operate.

[quote] What other books would be good to use for this? Is there something with, say, minimum requirements for what you'd need to feed a slave? Or was there ever errata published for Stormwrack?
[/LIST]I'd suggest two books. First, again, Skulls and Shackles by pathfinder. The AP is supposed to have a free player's guide with the naval rules (Plus some cut outs) inside. Secondly, an excellent book about the actual pirate life- "Pirates". Really nice to set the feel.

Feel free to take whatever you want from the Wiki if it strikes your fancy. At least someone will have a use for it.
Good luck!

[Maglubiyet]

2. How horribly screwed will they be if their crew lacks a (for want of a DnD term) Windfinder? Is that going to be something they NEED to reliably get around? Or would it just make the campaign "easier?"
What is a windfinder, a weather forecast? Sailors get amazingly good at predicting the winds and weather -- their lives literally depend on it!



6. How much does a pirate/crewmember make per day? That doesn't seem to be in Stormwrack. And what stats should the crew have? 2nd-4th level fighters and rogues? The party is 7th level, if that helps.
The crew makes shares of the loot of any ship they capture. Here's the breakdown of the shares of prize money in the 19th-century British Navy, which was the basis for this system:
admiral - 1/8th of all ships taken by his captains
captain - 1/4
lieutenant and master - share 1/8th
surgeon and rest of the mates (sailmaker, carpenter, gunner, etc.) - share 1/8th
junior officers (midshipmen, marine, warrants) - share 1/8th
rest of the crew - share 1/4th

2nd - 4th level seems a bit overpowered if you want the heroes to truly be the heroes and not just exceptional crewmembers.



7. These ship-to-ship weapons. They SUCK. A Balistae does 3d8 damage every 4 rounds? REALLY? The Ranger can do nearly 3x that in the same interval, and has a positive modifier to hit rather than a negative one. Why on earth would you ever want to use these ship-to-ship weapons?
Ballista range = 120ft, which is better than even a composite bow. Have the NPC's man the siege/ship-to-ship weapons while the PC's do what they do best.



8. How big of a deal is having certain equipment? A sextant, a compass, starcharts, that kind of thing. Some can obviously be replicated with magic. But others I assume can't.

According to the rules, a sextant gives the navigator a +2 on Geography checks, so it depends on how good your navigator is. Personally I only allow a check if they actually have the tools, just like you need some kind of implement for the Open Lock skill. In real life it's difficult to determine your position at sea without instruments and charts (and, crucially, an accurate watch). It CAN be done, though it still involves improvising the necessary tools. I suppose you could just assign a penalty if they don't have everything.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maglubiyet
In real life it's difficult to determine your position at sea without instruments and charts (and, crucially, an accurate watch).

The Norse rather famously navigated without any of these. The Polynesians likewise.

[sideswipe]

These ship-to-ship weapons. They SUCK. A Balistae does 3d8 damage every 4 rounds? REALLY? The Ranger can do nearly 3x that in the same interval, and has a positive modifier to hit rather than a negative one. Why on earth would you ever want to use these ship-to-ship weapons?


they are designed for the lvl 1-3 deckhands to use. if you have the same guy competent with a longbow then he does 1d8 damage every round with his 1 shot. meaning 4d8 total.

since the balistae is also a single hit anything big and gribly with DR will actually take damage. plus they can fire turn 1 then draw bows.
that is just taking the account of damage only.

also the bows (against a hardness 5 ship) will do on average 0 damage whereas the balistae will do 10 ish.

[Maglubiyet]

The Norse rather famously navigated without any of these. The Polynesians likewise.

Point-to-point navigation, yes, but not true open-ocean navigation. I suppose it depends on the technology level and scope of the campaign.

If it's just island hopping around a small archipelago you don't need much more than a knowledgeable local guide. If you're involved in a globe-spanning war, trying to thread a needle across thousands of miles of featureless water to hit a particular port within a certain timeframe, you're going to need some sophisticated navigational equipment and skills.

[Ephemeral_Being]

also the bows (against a hardness 5 ship) will do on average 0 damage whereas the balistae will do 10 ish.

Yeah... Our ranger has a +2 Composite (5) Greatbow. He does d10+7 per arrow. Rapidshot is 3 arrows per round. So with hardness 5, that's still 3d10+6 damage to the opposing ship.

Which by my math lets him sink a Caravel in on average... What? A minute, real-time? Unless I'm missing something. Which. I don't think I am.

It seems like ship-to-ship combat doesn't work above levels 3-4. I was starting them at 7, because that lets the crew actually be functional instead of dying when they annoy the cat.

They wanted to hunt Leviathan. Ransack other ships and caves looking for treasure. Be seafaring warriors, not just deckhands. Captain Jack Sparrow, instead of Popeye. So the campaign is high-powered. And I was worried about scaling.

And to the guy asking about what a Windfinder was: in Wheel of Time, the Seafolk channellers bend the wind and water to speed their ship along. This party is basically just fighters. Very little magic. Ranger who dumped it all for his archery, a Paladin, and a Barbarian. So they can't do that.

[Flickerdart]

Remember that not all fighting will take place on a ship - if you have characters who can fly, you'll need to account not only for relative ship movement, but for relative ship movement in relation to these guys. Also, gaseous type area effects become pretty much useless, as the moving ship will just leave them behind...but on the other hand, you can plop a Cloudkill at the front of a ship and have it rake through the entire upper deck, so there's that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart
Also, gaseous type area effects become pretty much useless, as the moving ship will just leave them behind...but on the other hand, you can plop a Cloudkill at the front of a ship and have it rake through the entire upper deck, so there's that.

I took advantage of this in my seafaring campaign, although it was an Obscuring Mist. Very useful to cover an enemy agent's getaway, as he was headed aft and the mist swept along to hide him.


Originally Posted by Maglubiyet
Point-to-point navigation, yes, but not true open-ocean navigation.

Iceland to North America more than qualifies as open ocean. Not to mention the entire Pacific.

[Kol Korran]

Yeah... Our ranger has a +2 Composite (5) Greatbow. He does d10+7 per arrow. Rapidshot is 3 arrows per round. So with hardness 5, that's still 3d10+6 damage to the opposing ship.

Which by my math lets him sink a Caravel in on average... What? A minute, real-time? Unless I'm missing something. Which. I don't think I am.


If I'm not mistaken there is a rule somewhere that basically means that the ship takes only half or quarter damage from piercing and/ or slashing weapons of normal size BEFORE applying the DR. It has been a long time since I was researching those rules, so I don't remember where they were, but I definitely remember there were such.

Beside, as DM you can apply common sense- arrows get stuck in ships, they don't really damage them, and so.

The far mroe effective way to bttle a ship is to kill it's crew though. leave it straggling.

[Maglubiyet]

Iceland to North America more than qualifies as open ocean. Not to mention the entire Pacific.

The Vikings went by way of Greenland, hugging the coastlines, with crossings no further than north-south across the Mediterranean. The first discovery of North America was because they were blown off course. It's still basically point-to-point or shoreline navigation.

There's navigation and there's navigation. Anyone can head "kinda west-ish" and adjust course once they sight land and figure out where they are based on landmarks -- that's pretty much how I do it in my boat all the time. It'll get you where you're going just fine as long as you're not in a hurry.

But to get a crate of last fall vintage from Bordeaux offloaded from horse-drawn cart in Cadiz at the end of January across nearly 5000 miles of open ocean in time for the start of Carnival in Rio de Janeiro requires navigation. You need the proper tools for that kind of thing.

[General Sajaru]

If I'm not mistaken there is a rule somewhere that basically means that the ship takes only half or quarter damage from piercing and/ or slashing weapons of normal size BEFORE applying the DR. It has been a long time since I was researching those rules, so I don't remember where they were, but I definitely remember there were such.

I think that'd be under the PHB rules for attacking an object (since a ship is just an object):

"Ranged Weapon Damage:
Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness."

And from the same section:

"Ineffective Weapons:
The DM may determine that certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, you may have a hard time chopping down a door by shooting arrows at it or cutting a robe with a club."

Although, obviously, a high enough character with a good enough magic weapon would still be able to punch a hole in the side of a ship- just as they should be able to.


These ship-to-ship weapons. They SUCK. A Balistae does 3d8 damage every 4 rounds? REALLY? The Ranger can do nearly 3x that in the same interval, and has a positive modifier to hit rather than a negative one. Why on earth would you ever want to use these ship-to-ship weapons?

That's why you need to get some cannons ;) I'd also recommend looking Heroes of Battle for some more siege engines and rules and feats about using them more efficaciously (it also has some nifty magical siege engines like the fire ballista...)

[bjoern]

We had a short naval campaign once. The mountain of rules regarding movement , ranges , ship maneuverability, ship captains directing the crew, etc really bogged the whole thing down.

I recommend throwing all the naval rules out the window and just shooting from the hip and winging the whole thing.

Just keep things moving and interesting. Rules that bog down the fun are themselves a violation of the most important rule.

If its fun its the right way to do it.

If it isn't fun you are doing it wrong.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I think that'd be under the PHB rules for attacking an object (since a ship is just an object):

"Ranged Weapon Damage:
Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness."

And from the same section:

"Ineffective Weapons:
The DM may determine that certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, you may have a hard time chopping down a door by shooting arrows at it or cutting a robe with a club."

Although, obviously, a high enough character with a good enough magic weapon would still be able to punch a hole in the side of a ship- just as they should be able to.



That's why you need to get some cannons ;) I'd also recommend looking Heroes of Battle for some more siege engines and rules and feats about using them more efficaciously (it also has some nifty magical siege engines like the fire ballista...)

Oh, we don't have gunpowder. I had to ban that flat-out. We have a guy with 22+ strength who was going to throw BARRELS of the stuff at the enemy, and use it to blow holes in walls and floors. And while that may seem funny, engineers given access to real-world equipment start the process of "How much gunpowder do I need to take out the structural components of this tower, causing it to collapse and killing everyone inside?" We'd be spending 2/3 of every session doing math, optimizing the best way to kill a group of enemies for both time and cost.

I shall point them to Heroes of Battle, though. Maybe the siege weapons there will make ship-to-ship combat more feasible.

[General Sajaru]

Engineers with gunpowder: this is why we can't have nice things.