Challenge: Optimize this Oathbreaker

[McBars]

Hey Playgrounders,

I just rolled 18 16 15 14 14 8 using 4d6k3, best stat line of my life!

I'm intent on playing an Oathbreaker Paladin, DM let me off the leash and I'm excited about the character concept.


Campaign starts at level 9. I'm taking all 9 levels in paladin, and will likely NOT multiclass @ subsequent levels.
Other party members include: Cleric, Bard, Sorcerer
I'm going to play either a variant human or a half-elf.
We start with 1 magic item, mine is a weapon (I choose what type) of Warning: gives advantage on initiative rolls, and prevents being surprised.


I need some help making the most this excellent stat line, hopefully that's where you come to my rescue!

I want the following at some point:

20 Cha
20 Str
polearm master, its too much fun getting to use your reaction and bonus action with such frequency
1 of the 2 feats: Resilient (CON) or Inspiring leader. Also, do you think taking either of these over Sentinel is a poor choice?


I'd like some input as to which race, and which ASIs/Feats taken at which level will result in the most fearsome fallen paladin possible.

Thanks in advance!

[Oscredwin]

What domain of cleric?

[McBars]

What domain of cleric?

War or death I believe

[Oscredwin]

Ok, so he's likely melee too. You want to double check that he's not going to be taking Sentinel, it causes problems if both of you have it.

I wouldn't go too twinky, something like Half-Elf (just better than Variant human if you would put a +2 in Cha and start at level 4 or above) with: 18 Str 14 Dex 15 Con 8 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha, with half elf mods that's:

19
14
16
8
14
18

Take Heavy Armor Master at 4 to boost you to a 20 STR (not the best feat at level 9, but better than your other options) and Polearm Master (you are using a Glaive or something) at level 8. At level 12 you'll get +2 Cha. After that take what you want.

[RulesJD]

1. Is your stat line pre or post racial modifiers? Presumably pre-mods because you haven't chosen your race yet. Obviously for pure power Variant Human is preferred. I would boost your 15 to 16, and your 16 to 17. For your first feat, take Resiliency (Con) to boost the 17 to 18 and get +4 health from the beginning.

1. What magic item are you allowed to take? Weapons of Warning are uncommon, so presumably at least that. I would highly recommend taking Gauntlets of Ogre Power instead. That lets you get 19 STR off your 8, letting you distribute your 18 to CHA, which ups your damage from the Oathbreaker aura.

Starting Stats:
Str - 19
Dex - 16 (better init/tanking saves)
Con - 18 (have to make tons of concentration checks)
Int - 14 (largely dump stat)
Wis - 14 (proficency + pally aura will make up for saves against mind affecting spells)
Cha - 18

ASI - Level progression
4 - Polearm Master
8 - Sentinel
12 - GWM
16 - Cha + 2
18 - Con + 2
These two combo far too well together, permitting you AoO almost every round that will be dishing out base weapon damage + 8 on EACH hit. That's insane. By level 12, you'll be able to have Bless up almost permanently (Con save of 4+4+4 = 12, so auto-pass any hit for 24 or less), which means you can strike with GWM for base weapon damage + 1d8 +18 on each hit pretty reliably. 3 attacks per turn = 2d10 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 54 = average damage of 82.5 per turn (re-rolling 1s and 2s ups it a bit). With AoO from Sent/Polearm you'll likely be upwards of 100 dmg per round, before any Divine Smites.

If you can get your Cleric to cast Bless instead and your Sorc to Twin cast Haste, you can use something better like Elemental Weapon/Magical Weapon/Divine Favor to boost your damage even further (extra attack = avg ~100 dmg per round or higher with AoO) and let you strike for full against monsters that resist normal weapons while upping your tankiness (+2 AC, adv on dex saves) quite a bit.

Edit:
I highly recommend you think about multiclassing after the level 12 ASI. 2 levels of Warlock will increase your survivability substantially because of the Fiend +6ish HP you'll be healing for almost every turn in combat. The rechargable spell slots are huge for Paladins, especially if you're stuck casting Bless on yourself to strike with GWM. Just two levels of Warlock gives you the best ranged weapon damage in the game (Agonizing Eldritch Blast) + whatever other Invocation you'd like. I'd suggest grabbing Devil's Sight and 3 levels of Warlock to generate Darkness in almost every fight. That means almost guaranteed Advantage on your attacks so an even better chance of GWM hitting.

Not to mention that Warlock levels make even more sense for an Oathbreaker Paladin.

[McBars]

snip

Those are the raw rolls. Pre-racial mods.

Also the weapon of warning was rolled by the dm. I can't switch it out for anything

[RulesJD]

Those are the raw rolls. Pre-racial mods.

Also the weapon of warning was rolled by the dm. I can't switch it out for anything

Same setup but swap the 18 to STR and the 8 to Int. Put 15 into Con so that Resiliency (Con) makes it 16 to start with. Same ASI progression, you'll end up with just 2-3 less average damage from the slightly lower Cha. The extra +1 mod from STR will do significantly less than the combo of Polearm Master/Sent/GWM/Bless.

[Yorrin]

Half Elf

18+1 Str
16+2 Cha
15+1 Con
14 Wis
14 Dex
8 Int

lvl 4- Polearm Master
lvl 8- Heavy Armor Master (that being the best +1Str Feat) OR +1 Str & +1Con
lvl 12- Inspiring Leader
lvl 16- +2Cha
lvl 19- Resilient

Both options get you all the goodies you want. The first has the damage reduction of Heavy Armor Master, the second bumps your Con mod up to 18. Grab you a Glaive/Halberd and kick some serious butt.

[Myzz]

I'd also look at what the other players races are... I wouldn't want to be the only human (only one without darkvision).
<edit add: as long as other people are gonna need light sources, go ahead and go Vhuman since your kind of MAD and are going to want at least 2 feats>

and I agree that the first ASI should be resilient CON, there are a LOT of Concentration Spells for Pally's, AND if your DM is going to enforce some alt rules about sleeping in armor, CON proficiency could come in handy.

DEPENDING on your character concept

Heavy Damage Dealer with a 2 hander = Great Weapon Fighter or PoleArm Master (depending on style)

High AC longevity Tank = Heavy Armor Master or Sentinel

I disagree that Sentinel on you and the Cleric will cause overlap issues... The last bullet ensure that if you or the Cleric get a reaction attack vs the creature. You only get one AoO, because you only get one reaction (AND if you used it to make the reaction attack provided by Sentinel then you dont get to make an AoO...) The more front line fighters with Sentinel the better.


so to be a more effective tank go sentinel, to take hits better go heavy armor prof. To do more damage take GWM or PM, dependent on character concept. If your going try staff PM cheese check with your DM first (I dont allow it in my games).

[Giant2005]

I'd also look at what the other players races are... I wouldn't want to be the only human (only one without darkvision).
<edit add: as long as other people are gonna need light sources, go ahead and go Vhuman since your kind of MAD and are going to want at least 2 feats>
There isn't any reason to go human when starting so far above level 1 and having a need for charisma - Half-Elf offers a lot more.
The human basically gets the equivalent of two ASIs/Feats (1 Feat plus 2 ability mods), one skill, and one language of choice. The Half Elf gets the equivalent of two ASIs/Feats (4 ability mods), two skills, one language of choice + Elvish, Darkvision, immunity to sleep, advantage vs charm, and a longer lifespan.

[RulesJD]

There isn't any reason to go human when starting so far above level 1 and having a need for charisma - Half-Elf offers a lot more.
The human basically gets the equivalent of two ASIs/Feats (1 Feat plus 2 ability mods), one skill, and one language of choice. The Half Elf gets the equivalent of two ASIs/Feats (4 ability mods), two skills, one language of choice + Elvish, Darkvision, immunity to sleep, advantage vs charm, and a longer lifespan.

Because having Polearm Master + Sent + GWM to start with is incredibly (brokenly) powerful. Being able to stop the big bad guy outside of a 5ft reach trivializes many, many fights. It also hugely increases your DPR. Having Res (con) as level 1 increases your health slightly, but more importantly it only delays the above damage progression until level 12, as opposed to level 16 for the half-elf. That's a lot more play time where your full build is online.

[Giant2005]

Because having Polearm Master + Sent + GWM to start with is incredibly (brokenly) powerful.
No, it isn't. The minute you replace an ASI with GWM, it becomes quite rubbish.
Level 9, 20 Str, 20 Cha, Sentinel and Polearm Mastery (Staff and shield with Duelist) inflicts the following damage per round against the following ACs:
AC 12: 41.425
AC 16: 32.325
AC 20: 23.225
Level 9, 20 Str, 18 Cha, Senteinel, Polearm Mastery and GWM (Halberd) inflicts the following damage per round against the following ACs:
AC 12: 47.62
AC 16: 33.2 (30.225 with GWM turned off)
AC 20: 18.78 (21.805 with GWM turned off)

As you can see, GWM is only useful against the weakest of enemies (The enemies which would not pose a challenge to either build) - against the more challenging enemies you won't be using it anyway. Yet by choosing it you lose DPR against the targets where you really need it, 2 AC from using a shield, 1 to all saves, 1 DC from Paladin spells and 1 from your social skills.

GWM isn't a feat designed for combat, it is a feat designed for showboating. It gives the combatant the ability to get in an occasional big hit at the expense of consistency and average damage per round. The Paladin doesn't even need the feat if showboating is the goal - he can achieve higher numbers at will via Smiting anyway.

[RulesJD]

No, it isn't. The minute you replace an ASI with GWM, it becomes quite rubbish.
Level 9, 20 Str, 20 Cha, Sentinel and Polearm Mastery (Staff and shield with Duelist) inflicts the following damage per round against the following ACs:
AC 12: 41.425
AC 16: 32.325
AC 20: 23.225
Level 9, 20 Str, 18 Cha, Senteinel, Polearm Mastery and GWM (Halberd) inflicts the following damage per round against the following ACs:
AC 12: 47.62
AC 16: 33.2 (30.225 with GWM turned off)
AC 20: 18.78 (21.805 with GWM turned off)

As you can see, GWM is only useful against the weakest of enemies (The enemies which would not pose a challenge to either build) - against the more challenging enemies you won't be using it anyway. Yet by choosing it you lose DPR against the targets where you really need it, 2 AC from using a shield, 1 to all saves, 1 DC from Paladin spells and 1 from your social skills.

GWM isn't a feat designed for combat, it is a feat designed for showboating. It gives the combatant the ability to get in an occasional big hit at the expense of consistency and average damage per round. The Paladin doesn't even need the feat if showboating is the goal - he can achieve higher numbers at will via Smiting anyway.

Your numbers are wrong. You are assuming the Paladin does not have Bless or Advantage. Bless should be up for almost every combat (hence the combo with a 2 level dip into Warlock, but still not necessary). As you will notice if you read my post, that is included in the build.

Additionally, you get the extra +3 damage average just from getting an extra main hand Halberd attack rather than the blunt end when you kill or crit.