Would you recognize genuis?

[Tor the Fallen]

I wouldn't.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html?referrer=digg

[Shadow of the Sun]

I would. I will stop and listen to any music I find on the street, as long as it is good. Hell, I have been known to cry if it is good enough.

[Vespe Ratavo]

Sure. If there was a guy on the street playing, and I didn't have some place I needed to be urgently, sure. Maybe give him a few bucks.

[Amotis]

Damn, and here is me, actually paying money to see Joshua Bell play....

[SDF]

Want to know the most satisfying thing with that article? I've made more money playing street music in an hour than possibly the best violinist in the world.

And it isn't so much recognizing genius as acknowledging it. I agree with the writer that it is a matter of relevance in today's society. Sure I could walk through different parks on my way to school and take in the natural beauty that is around, but usually I end up driving the three miles to school going the exact same route every day, and even when I bike I go the same route. It is fast, and it is convenient nothing more. It doesn't add anything to my day like a detour would, but I just don't think about it and more on. Very interesting article though, combines some of my favorite hobbies, music(and street music at that) and the psychology of the human mind. And there is NO way I would stand in the middle of a crowd like that with a Strat :P

[Tor the Fallen]

The Kant BS was a little OTT, but I guess the Post had to make up for the fact that over a thousand of their fellow citymen ignored the best violinist in the world playing the greatest music ever written. I dunno, it felt like the writers were trying to wrap themselves up in a bunch of elitist garbage so they could avoid the scrutinous "you're in a rush, Mr. Washington Post journalist, you honestly saying you'd stop and listen to a street musician? Like the 100s you've rushed by before?"

Is that part of a Radiohead quote in your sig, SDF?

[Om]

Now that was a long winded article. It also proves very little, if it was ever intended to be more than a cheap stunt. People on the street generally don't stop for chuggers, beggers or buskers... no matter how good the latter is. They're simply too busy going from A to B

[Tor the Fallen]

Now that was a long winded article. It also proves very little, if it was ever intended to be more than a cheap stunt. People on the street generally don't stop for chuggers, beggers or buskers... no matter how good the latter is. They're simply too busy going from A to B

Precisely.

[Wayril]

I love music, but a lot of the time I need to hear something more than once to actually like it, so I probably wouldn't.

Now I'd definately stop to listen, cause I'm a very relaxed person, but I probably wouldn't notice how good it was until I actually thought about it later. So I'd be willing to bet that I wouldn't notice.

[Joran]

It's a great article, because people have been taking it personally and it's open to interpretation.

There have people who have cried because of the article. People have gotten indigent over it, because they felt it was an attack. Other people have just shrugged and moved on.

The reaction to the article is probably just as important as the article itself.

P.S. I would have personally stopped because I like violin music. I probably would not have been able to tell the difference between him and some average violinist from the local symphony orchestra.

[Tor the Fallen]

It's a great article, because people have been taking it personally and it's open to interpretation.

Really?
I thought it was an delightfully defensive in its overblown proportions. Was it worth bringing up Hume, Kant and Plato?
Only if your readers (and author) realize that they'd be unable or incapable to
recognize Great Music for being Great Music. The consolation- mentioning "Koyaanisqatsi" and mocking people that can't pronounce L'Enfant like a Frenchman.

[Telonius]

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me, especially at L'enfant Square. The only people there are ones transferring from train to train, and government workers. He'd have gotten a better audience at Foggy Bottom, with the college kids and hospital right next to it. They regularly have musicians outside that stop, and some of them do pretty well (especially the guys from Peru that are out there every once in awhile).

By the way, the article is right about the Metro drivers. You wouldn't believe some of the weird pronunciations I've heard taking the train to work every day.

[Joran]

He'd have gotten a better audience at Foggy Bottom, with the college kids and hospital right next to it.

Apparently, they had to do it at L'Enfant Plaza, because Metro wouldn't let them do it. At L'Enfant, there was a private arcade that gave them permission.

Also, they couldn't do it outside, what with the 5 million dollar Stradivarius violin.

[zeratul]

Why would you give him money if you knew it was him. There are tons of people playing who actually need the cash.

[Ted_Stryker]

He pulled in over $50 in a bit less than an hour. Even discounting the $20 from the person who recognized Mr. Bell, that's still $40/hour for busking on a subway platform during rush hour.

If we want to start quoting philosophers, I think the Post is engaged in something that Charles Sanders Peirce termed "sham inquiry". The point they want to prove is already determined ahead of time, and they're doing their level best to bias the demonstration so that it shows what they want to show.

[Talyn]

*shrugs* I admit to not being the world's biggest fan of classical music, and I don't think I could tell the difference between a Stradivarius and a violin you pick up for 100 bucks.

I'd probably have given the guy a dollar if I'd had the time to stop for a few minutes - but if I was in a hurry, or real life demanded my attention elsewhere, I would have thought "oh, that's nice" and kept walking with no shame.

[Mattaeu]

So I only got through half of it I think. A question starting nagging at me and so here I am to postulate:

Art(ists) with a price tag. Value: "If you don't take visible note of the musician, you don't have to feel guilty about not forking over money; you're not complicit in a rip-off."

If he loves the music enough, should that be it's own reward? Sometimes, I would certainly like to think so. But to cover my rear, it just wouldn't work (with the point the article was making). Do you, hypothetical musician, feel ripped off if you don't get paid for your skill-set? If the piece is that beautiful, which it is, exactly how much did you pay to get a copy?

I hope no one pays for anything I ever make; I tried selling a script once and I felt like I was ripping him off.

[Nibleswick]

I love music, so I would stop, put some money in (if I had any), then I would be draged away by someone that I was traveling with, and I would feel bad that I missed something good.:smallfrown:

P.S. Here in Salt Lake we generaly have people playing the bag pipes, it is wonderful.

[Sereno]

*shrugs* I admit to not being the world's biggest fan of classical music, and I don't think I could tell the difference between a Stradivarius and a violin you pick up for 100 bucks.

Actually, you probably could ... it depends more on who is playing it, though.

If *I* were to pick up a Strad and start playing, the difference between my $500 one and the Strad would be quite minor. However, in Mr. Bell's hands (or any great violinist) you'd certainly hear the differences between the cheaper instrument and the masterwork.

As a fiddler, myself ... I would have stopped, awestruck and amazed, and listened. It was amazing playing just in that crappy little video.

After a little while, as the awe began to wear off, I probably would have recognized Mr. Bell ... I've seen him on TV and listened to his playing on CD and Napster. He's supposed to be a very personable and friendly fellow. I would certainly stay until he finished playing unless I had an important meeting that I absolutely HAD to attend....

[Amotis]

Actually, you probably could ... it depends more on who is playing it, though.

If *I* were to pick up a Strad and start playing, the difference between my $500 one and the Strad would be quite minor. However, in Mr. Bell's hands (or any great violinist) you'd certainly hear the differences between the cheaper instrument and the masterwork.

And there's certainly no excuse to sound like crap when you're a professional player. I remember meeting the first chair violin player at the local orchestra after getting this huge (HUGE!) donation of some very famous very expensive violin. He basically said "well, now I have no excuses to sound bad."

It like strips them naked. Nothing but the performer now.

[Joran]

The point they want to prove is already determined ahead of time, and they're doing their level best to bias the demonstration so that it shows what they want to show.

Except that the writer stated that he had no idea of what would happen. Many people in the newsroom thought they'd have a mob. The one instance that they were actively rooting against was that people would recognize him as Joshua Bell and mob him because of who he was instead of what he was doing.

I believe they didn't have an idea of which way it would go. The way they framed the experiment has its flaws but I don't think they went in with an expected result and endeavored to prove it.

P.S. I think they needed to do a control experiment as well. Put an average player and see what happens.

[Tom_Violence]

I quit my government job a long time ago. So, I guess not.

[Logos7]

Kant, Because he's obviously right ftw

Honestly these people ought to stop writting long winded and condesending articles about who stopped where, and start writting about kant, after all he's obviously right and we should tell other people about it after all, all the work on athestics since the enlightenment has been in vain, oh thank you stupid long winded reporter person for setting us all straight

however on the other hand considering something like less than 2 % of people stopped to note the Obvious and Context transcending beuty of it all, I would have thought that Kant might have gotten it a little wrong, Maybe Hume had it right after all.

Moral of the story, to think that anything out of context is gonna convey the same meaning and impression to people as those people in the context is silly. I probably wouldn't have stopped but given the guy a 5 note to buy some goddamn epilepsy medication and get a new frickin violin.

Logos

[Strengfellow]

Interesting article and an equaly intresting topic.
Before I lost the use of my legs I used to walk everywhere, I'd think nothing of a six hour walk to a friends house rain or shine and whilst I would invaribly take time to walk through the parks and public gardens enroute I cant think of a time when I actualy stopped to listen to a busker, i've given the few coins of loose change chafeing at my pocket but never stopped even during those halcyon days.

Funny isnt it how even when we have "free time" were not really free.

[Druid]

If i wasn't in a hurry I'd definitely stop and listen to that guy. I'd probably even give him a few bucks.

[Deckmaster]

I'd probably stop and listen for awhile, give him some money if I had any, and move on. I'd have probably have even paid him a compliment. I probably wouldn't have thought he was a professional musician.

[averagejoe]

Interesting. Living in an area where street musicians are relatively common, I can say with confidence that I've heard some fantastic stuff and not stopped to listen. It isn't that I don't care; I look the homeless around here in the face, and throw some change if they're someone I see often. (The ones whose gazes I try to avoid are the student election campaigners, and other campus groups trying to get me to buy stuff. :smalltongue: )

On the other hand, though, I've never heard good a street musician that I didn't appreciate. Indeed, they usually take the whole of my attention while I am in earshot, and my thoughts a little while after. Of course, sometimes I'm thinking of stuff and the music is an unkind interruption, but it is usually a welcome part of my day.

Perhaps I'm not a fair test, though; I've never liked music as much as other people seem to, and I usually can't just sit and listen even if it's music I like.

Actually it reminded me of the bit in The Phantom Tollbooth, where they were in that town where everyone just got to work as fast as they could, and the town turned invisible and no one noticed. It says little about the aesthetic sophistication of the average Washingtonian, I think, and more about the values. People tend to value getting places on time more than they do appreciating beauty, for example. Not that I'm making a value judgement, understand; I'm not completely sure that I'm not in the former group of people. I still enjoy sunsets, though.

That is one thing I noticed about the article, however; it's getting people to examine their own lives. Say what else you want about it, that's fairly valuable.

[Ted_Stryker]

Except that the writer stated that he had no idea of what would happen. Many people in the newsroom thought they'd have a mob. The one instance that they were actively rooting against was that people would recognize him as Joshua Bell and mob him because of who he was instead of what he was doing.
Well, if he said so, I guess we have to believe him.

There's more than a little bit of cultural condescension here. Why don't these soulless government drones recognize genius in their midst?


I believe they didn't have an idea of which way it would go. The way they framed the experiment has its flaws but I don't think they went in with an expected result and endeavored to prove it.

P.S. I think they needed to do a control experiment as well. Put an average player and see what happens.
I can think of an even better control -- do it during the evening rush hour. In the morning rush hour, on the subway, people have to get to work! Not everyone works at a salaried job where they have a bit of flexibility in when they show up to work. Someone on the clock could get seriously reprimanded, or even fired, if they show up to work 30-45 minutes late because of listening to someone play the violin on the subway. Those pressures aren't nearly so severe coming home.

I don't know, this seems like a fairly obvious point to me; so as far as I can tell the writer is either totally clueless, or being disingenuous. Spouting off Kant while not acknowledging that people have places to go in the morning seems pretty freakin' contrived in my book.

[Tor the Fallen]

I don't know, this seems like a fairly obvious point to me; so as far as I can tell the writer is either totally clueless, or being disingenuous. Spouting off Kant while not acknowledging that people have places to go in the morning seems pretty freakin' contrived in my book.

Then mock them for not knowing French, an impossibly tiresome language.

[Ted_Stryker]

Then mock them for not knowing French, an impossibly tiresome language.
But if French is impossibly tiresome, should we mock them or praise them if they mangle it?

[Joran]

I can think of an even better control -- do it during the evening rush hour. In the morning rush hour, on the subway, people have to get to work!

They couldn't; Joshua Bell had an extremely tight schedule.

I doubt the effect would have been substantially different, just because people will be rushing to get back home to pick up their kids from day care, start dinner, take night classes, whatever. There might have been a few more people to stop, but I doubt he would have attracted a crowd.


Well, if he said so, I guess we have to believe him.

I have no reason not to believe him.


There's more than a little bit of cultural condescension here. Why don't these soulless government drones recognize genius in their midst?

Oh definitely, there is an undercurrent of class bias. Appreciation of classical music (like the appreciation of fine arts and wine) is considered a mark of an intelligent/cultured individual, while appreciation of the "coarse" arts is not.

As I said before, the reaction to the article is as revealing as the article itself. Are you questioning the parameters of the little experiment because you believe that people would stop if they didn't have something pressing? If he performed on a Saturday, during the Cherry Blossom Festival, do you think the experience would have been different?

P.S. I don't particularly care if the author was trying to prove that us government workers are soulless minions of orthodoxy (although I don't believe so). I find the results predictable but the reactions and the questions that the article provoked, I found interesting.

P.S.S. Chat Transcript for those who wish to kill even more time:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/04/06/DI2007040601228.html

It's rather long.

[Da Beast]

I occasionally claim to be one, so probably not.[/self deprecation]

If I'm not in a hurry I'll stop and listen to a good street musician. I'd probably stop and listen to that guy even if I was in a hurry.

[Ted_Stryker]

As I said before, the reaction to the article is as revealing as the article itself. Are you questioning the parameters of the little experiment because you believe that people would stop if they didn't have something pressing? If he performed on a Saturday, during the Cherry Blossom Festival, do you think the experience would have been different?
I'm reacting the way I am because it's a sloppy, pretentious article. YMMV.

[Joran]

I'm reacting the way I am because it's a sloppy, pretentious article. YMMV.

Understood, I respect that opinion.

On a different note, do you think you would have stopped?

[Ted_Stryker]

On a different note, do you think you would have stopped?
At 8 am? Most likely not -- if I'm on public transportation it's to get somewhere, and I tend not to budget much in the way of extra traveling time that early in the morning. I probably would've noticed, but not stopped, would be my guess.

[Pepper]

Personally, i wouldn't feel any worse about not stopping to listen to him, then i would for knowing he was playing at a concert hall and not having time to go.

[musicnerd]

He sounds so good in those videos. I am a music major and a violinist and it was very depressing to see all those people just walking past him. Didn't the Bach give them chills? What is wrong with them? :frown:

This is why I need to be a music teacher. People should learn to understand this kind of music, because once you understand it, it can affect you like nothing else. Its like a legal and safe drug.

[Om]

What is wrong with them? They had jobs to get to.

[Ted_Stryker]

Why does there have to be anything wrong with passersby who, well, passed by? It's an isolated incident, so I'm having difficulty in seeing how anyone can conclude much of anything about those involved in this "study" based on a single incident.

See also the fundamental attribution error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error).

[Neon Knight]

I would have stopped. I enjoy classical music, and hear it so rarely live that I would have taken this opportunity to listen, at least for 2-6 minutes.

Is my boss really gonna put my head on a stick for being 2-6 minutes late? Of course, these people have jobs for the government, so perhaps that is a factor. Government is important.

I can't really say whether this "study" shows anything conclusive. Repetition and more variables would be required, and I don't think we'll get 'em.