Is Asmodeus even Lawful?

[Anlashok]

Supposedly he's the purest embodiment of LE alignment.

But he's also called "The Lord of Lies" and a large amount of what's written about him seems to be about him stabbing people in the back, lying or cheating more than anything else. In Pathfinder one of the defining moments of Golarion's creation is him murdering his brother in an act of treachery.

Which all sounds like the opposite of lawful.

[Telonius]

At least in Fiendish Codex 2, it's Baalzebul who's called the Lord of Lies. Asmodeus is very much concerned with hierarchies (who's who in Baator), retribution, and punishment of damned souls. The entire Pact Primeval (where he got all the gods of Law to sign a contract allowing him to operate in Baator) was his idea. He always follows the letter of the contract, but finds every possible loophole to benefit himself. And while he'll never tell an outright lie, he'll make the truth stand on its head.

[sage20500]

While it may not be technically cannon, it's groups like this that actually make me love this game so much. Yes Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, but when you see things like this happen you can't help but wonder if he really is an extremely lawful good person that is just acting out a lie to the rest of the world because he knows that without someone to fill the part he's playing, the world wouldn't exist as it should. It reminds me of the Incarnations of Immortality series, and the guy who was Satan that used to be a priest, because at the time if he hadn't taken up the mantle then someone infinitely worse would have done so.


http://nat1blogging.tumblr.com/post/70382833799/tariqk-nat1blogging-christmas-type-furret

[Psyren]

The key with any devil's nickname is where that name is coming from. What are people more likely to say when they get screwed over on a contract - "Man, I wish I had read that fine print better" - or - "They tricked/cheated me!" The idea being that, no, you cheated yourself by not reading the fine print before signing. But the devil would get labeled a liar anyway by angry (and impotent) mortals.

[Zweisteine]

Yes Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, but when you see things like this happen you can't help but wonder if he really is an extremely lawful good person that is just acting out a lie to the rest of the world because he knows that without someone to fill the part he's playing, the world wouldn't exist as it should.
Actually, that's not too dissimilar to the story of the Pact Primeval, except the "Asmodeus is good" part.

(Note: this is transcribed to the best of my memory; some details are probably wrong.)

Basically, it says Asmodeus and a bunch of other angels were sent to defend reality (good planes/material plane) from demons. Over the millenia, they took on fiendish traits to better fight their foes. When they wanted a break and went back to the Heavens, the good gods said "you look like demons, we don't want you here!" Asmodeus and his subordinates didn't like that, and said they couldn't fight on like that forever. He proposed that they be allowed to take evil souls for use in the war against Demons. The good gods reluctantly agreed, Asmodeus wrote up a contract (the Pact itself) stating the details of what was allowed, and everyone signed it. Some time later, the good gods noticed that the number of evil mortals had grown greatly. Upon investigation, they noticed that the now-devils were tempting mortals to do evil. Enraged, they payed a visit to Baator and found it to be the hell we know today. When they questioned Asmodeus, he told them to check the fine print.

So basically, he's been forced to take on the role of fighting demons for eternity for the greater good.


Keep in mind, though, that the story of the pact, while it does contain some elements of truth, is not entirely correct. Go ask Afro if you want details. I don't know the details too well.

[LoyalPaladin]

I always feel like Asmodeus (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Asmodeus) is a lawyer. I mean, there is always this:

"When called to account for his actions, Asmodeus uttered the famous words, 'Read the fine print.' "


While it may not be technically cannon, it's groups like this that actually make me love this game so much.

http://nat1blogging.tumblr.com/post/70382833799/tariqk-nat1blogging-christmas-type-furret
It is too early for those feels!

[Segev]

The key, as others have mentioned, is that Asmodeus doesn't engage in treachery that is flat-out breaking his given word. He may make the rules, but he follows them once made, as well. He can outright lie, but these lies will tend to be about his intentions and about "forseeable consequences," not about the precise terms of the agreement.

Note that the "fine print" of a contract is often referenced as being where nefarious twistings of intention are burried, but that this is a combination of two things:

The fine print is generally the niggling, nitpicky little details spelling out EXACTLY what various terms and clauses mean. The non-fine print spells out, in varying levels of specificity, what the agreement is and gives, in theory, a good indication of the intent of the contract. The fine print spells out very precise details so there isn't room to argue about it afterwards (which would negate the point of a contract in the first place).
Those who like to engage in word play and twisting of definitions to create false impressions of intent will therefore use the fine print to "define" (really, redefine) words and "clarify" (really, choose a meaning that might technically be accurate but is definitely not what is connotatively being said) passages so that the contract actually reads very differently than it seems to.

Rarely is the fine print going to out-and-out negate the denotative meaning of any part of the contract.

For example, the main clause of the Pact Primeval probably was something to the effect of granting Asmodeus jurisdiction over evil souls, and allowing him to conscript them as soldiers in his army for this war.

The "fine print" likely elaborated on what constituted a suitably "evil" soul, spelled out how conscription could be performed (e.g. the punishments and torments of hell to shape them into the warriors he needed, as well as to punish any who didn't serve with sufficient verve), and probably either had no mention of how recruitment could be performed or specifically permitted "recruitment" which could constitute or include "scouting" for prospective mortals who "might be suitable."

i.e., it either never said they had to be souls that were evil without having been tempted, or it actively allows for the cultivation of evil souls via temptation. But in either case, it's in the "fine print" not (just) because it's to be hidden, but because ostensibly it is just a detail on how the intention (evil souls help fight the blood war) is carried out.



On a tangential note, I would love to see a "deal with the devil" story where the devil signs a contract with somebody, and the devil keeps his side. And then, because the guy's soul is already forfeit, he gives up on morality and indulges his vices. He's going to hell either way, right?

The lie that Satan told was that his contract had any enforceable power. Satan has no power to claim an innocent soul, even if that soul sold itself to him. But, because the soul believed itself damned, it engaged in damning behavior, thus rendering it so.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, he's Lawful. The part about lying is ascribed to him by mortals who weren't paying attention enough to know what he actually said. He plots, he backstabs and expects the same to be done to him (and thus has ridiculous amounts of contingencies in place in case of such. However, his word is always kept. I'm pretty sure he's the one who wrote the Pact Primeval, which 'the book' when devils say they're doing things by the book. And is also an artifact of such incredible law that coming into contact with it turns most people Lawful instantly (10 points of obeisance).

[Ruethgar]

You cannot lie in D&D because almost everything is true on another plane, namely in dreamscapes. Asmodeus seems the kind of guy who would use that to his advantage to manipulate information.

[illyahr]

While it may not be technically cannon, it's groups like this that actually make me love this game so much. Yes Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, but when you see things like this happen you can't help but wonder if he really is an extremely lawful good person that is just acting out a lie to the rest of the world because he knows that without someone to fill the part he's playing, the world wouldn't exist as it should. It reminds me of the Incarnations of Immortality series, and the guy who was Satan that used to be a priest, because at the time if he hadn't taken up the mantle then someone infinitely worse would have done so.


http://nat1blogging.tumblr.com/post/70382833799/tariqk-nat1blogging-christmas-type-furret

Ouch, right in the feels. :smallfrown:

[Red Fel]

On a tangential note, I would love to see a "deal with the devil" story where the devil signs a contract with somebody, and the devil keeps his side. And then, because the guy's soul is already forfeit, he gives up on morality and indulges his vices. He's going to hell either way, right?

That would be Marlowe's The Tragic History of the Life and Death of Doctor Faustus, based on the German legend of the titular Faust, whose name is synonymous with such pacts. The whole point of the story is that Faustus, upon commencing his pact with Mephistopheles, becomes convinced of his own damnation, and willfully blind to the opportunity for salvation.

Back on the point, Asmodeus doesn't have to lie. He can't, but he doesn't have to. Technically, he doesn't even need to use loopholes, at least not when dealing with mortals. Part of his modus operandi comes from the eminent corruptibility of the mortal races. It's part of why he entered into the Pact Primeval in the first place - to ensure that those souls wicked enough to earn punishment would receive it.

And that's the beauty of it. From Asmodeus' perspective, you rarely even need trickery to get the soul to damn itself. If a man wants unearned power, give it to him; he never had to earn it, and will likely squander or abuse it. If a woman wants otherworldly beauty, give it to her; she values that beauty above any other mortal virtue, and will preserve it to the exclusion of others. If a put-upon servant wants revenge, give it to him; as they say, when you walk down the road of revenge, you dig two graves. Trickery isn't needed when desirous mortals readily doom themselves.

[LoyalPaladin]

Trickery isn't needed when desirous mortals readily doom themselves.
Once again, Red Fel sums it up nicely. Asmodeus is tier one evil in D&D, but to me he is actually one of the hardest characters to dislike. He fits so perfectly into his role. Maybe it's because I rock the letters LG at the top of my sheet that he seems to feel less horrific. He strives to bring people to where he thinks they belong, as do most LG people. He just sees souls as things that are seeking damnation, whereas I would see them as souls that need guidance back into the light. Also, I would rather have Asmodeus ruling hell than Mephisto. That guy is bats.

[illyahr]

Red Fel speaks and a Paladin begins to think that Asmodeus isn't that bad. Red Fel, you fiend! :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Ouch, right in the feels. :smallfrown:

I cannot emotion right now.

[LoyalPaladin]

Red Fel speaks and a Paladin begins to think that Asmodeus isn't that bad. Red Fel, you fiend! :smalltongue:
You'd be surprised how often LG and LE end up being similar. Unfortunately, the fact that our goals don't align at the end of the road is the reason my code of conduct prevents me from being in a party with anyone with the E tacked onto their alignment.
That doesn't prevent us from sharing an ale at the local tavern though! After all, what kind of Paladin would I be if I didn't have faith that all could come to the light with proper guidance?

Paladin Edit:
Even EasyDamus (http://easydamus.com/lawfulgood.html) says LG sees LE as "Honorable but Ruthless". I myself get along with LE NPCs easier than LN. Those neutrals are just too wishy washy.

[Red Fel]

You'd be surprised how often LG and LE end up being similar. Unfortunately, the fact that our goals don't align at the end of the road is the reason my code of conduct prevents me from being in a party with anyone with the E tacked onto their alignment.
That doesn't prevent us from sharing an ale at the local tavern though! After all, what kind of Paladin would I be if I didn't have faith that all could come to the light with proper guidance?

Paladin Edit:
Even EasyDamus (http://easydamus.com/lawfulgood.html) says LG sees LE as "Honorable but Ruthless". I myself get along with LE NPCs easier than LN. Those neutrals are just too wishy washy.

Whereas a truly LE character finds almost everyone easy to get along with. (CEs are... Complicated.) That's where you can see Asmodeus shine. He can get along with LGs and LNs due to their shared concept of honor and respect for order. He can get along with NEs due to their shared appreciation for the darker things in life. He can get along with TNs because they tend to stay out of his way. He can even get along with NGs and CGs, if for no other reason than that being Good means you have limits, and having limits means you can be manipulated. (No, he never claps his hands shouting, "Dance, puppets, dance," while in the privacy of his bedchamber. That's a terrible rumor started by Meph, who will suffer for it terribly.)

CEs... They're just too ludicrous to control for long. More importantly, they're part of the reason Asmodeus became what he is in the first place. Even if a part of him is still angelic, especially if a part of him is still angelic, Demons were, are, and always will be his enemy. The forces of Good are only his enemy inasmuch as they are arrayed against him; if they stopped waging war on him, he'd have more important things on which to focus. Asmodeus plays the long game, and in the long run, Evil recruits far faster and more successfully than Good; he'll win by attrition alone. Demons, on the other hand, are his enemy inasmuch as they continue to exist, ruining his perfect order, threatening his supreme dominion over Evil.

Asmodeus has a bigger problem with Demons than with Angels, and there is nothing non-Evil about it.

[LoyalPaladin]

Whereas a truly LE character finds almost everyone easy to get along with. (CEs are... Complicated.) That's where you can see Asmodeus shine. He can get along with LGs and LNs due to their shared concept of honor and respect for order.
This. The base creature for the "Asmodeus template" was a LG creature that was pure good. So he still held very tightly onto the Lawful alignment. Which is what makes him perfectly evil.


Even if a part of him is still angelic, especially if a part of him is still angelic, Demons were, are, and always will be his enemy.
I always wished WotC would touch on this. But alas, they most likely never will.

[Elricaltovilla]

I wish we had more strongly aligned forum members. It'd be nice to get one of each of the nine alignments and have them debate the merits of their favorite alignment. I could sell popcorn.

To be on topic: Asmodeus is definitely lawful, he just also happens to be lawful. In Golarion, he's a deity and one of the ones who played the biggest part in imprisoning Rovagug, whom every other god agrees is just like... the worst. Gods in Golarion tend to get along a bit better than they do in other settings, Asmodeus even has a relatively positive relationship with his near opposite Sarenrae (they teamed up to imprison Rovagug).

Anyway, Asmodeus is more Le than he is lE I think. He follows the letter of the law exactly, but the letter of that law is the only thing that he follows. Nothing else will stop him.

[LoyalPaladin]

I wish we had more strongly aligned forum members. It'd be nice to get one of each of the nine alignments and have them debate the merits of their favorite alignment. I could sell popcorn.
Hahaha. Only if true neutral has to post entirely in white when they are speaking from their alignment's perspective.


To be on topic: Asmodeus is definitely lawful, he just also happens to be lawful.
It's so sad he had to be evil. As you can tell I'm really torm up about it. :smallwink:

[Vhaidara]

It's so sad he had to be evil. As you can tell I'm really torm about about it. :smallwink:

I think that counts as unprovoked assault upon innocents. Some poor commoner could die from the d8 of pun damage that dealt.

So, have you considered the perks of trading in those Fallen Paladin levels for Blackguard bonuses? I can help with Psychic Reformation to get you some Hide ranks.

[dascarletm]

I wish we had more strongly aligned forum members. It'd be nice to get one of each of the nine alignments and have them debate the merits of their favorite alignment. I could sell popcorn.


Dibs on Chaotic Evil!

[atemu1234]

Dibs on Chaotic Evil!

I'll be True Neutral!

[illyahr]

I got CG! :smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

I think that counts as unprovoked assault upon innocents. Some poor commoner could die from the d8 of pun damage that dealt.

So, have you considered the perks of trading in those Fallen Paladin levels for Blackguard bonuses? I can help with Psychic Reformation to get you some Hide ranks.
That would normally be the case. But I only use dangerous blasts of pun energy when I detect evil in my presence.

As a side note, I am totally picking up Oathbreaker Paladin in a one shot 5th edition campaign we are running.


I got CG! :smallbiggrin:
You're all welcomed to be LG if you like. :smallwink:

[illyahr]

You're all welcomed to be LG if you like. :smallwink:

Nah, not a fan of wooden suppositories. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

Nah, not a fan of wooden suppositories. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:
Nevermind illyahr, you'll fit in with that alignment. Ah chaotics and their need to make jokes about sticking various objects where they don't belong.

[Red Fel]

I wish we had more strongly aligned forum members. It'd be nice to get one of each of the nine alignments and have them debate the merits of their favorite alignment. I could sell popcorn.

I, for one, refuse to be pidgeonholed into only one flavor of Evil. There's such variety and nuance between them, I couldn't possibly...


Dibs on Chaotic Evil!

... yeah, you know what? You can keep it. I know where it's been.

And it appears that we may be derailing this thread, just a touch. Just a touch.

Just as planned.

[LoyalPaladin]

Just as planned.
I'll put 10gp on Red Fel secretly being Asmodeus.

[Shining Wrath]

Supposedly he's the purest embodiment of LE alignment.

But he's also called "The Lord of Lies" and a large amount of what's written about him seems to be about him stabbing people in the back, lying or cheating more than anything else. In Pathfinder one of the defining moments of Golarion's creation is him murdering his brother in an act of treachery.

Which all sounds like the opposite of lawful.

Asmodeus scrupulously obeys the letter of every contract he agrees to.

It's just that his IQ modifier is "yours, whatever it is, plus Yes" and his experience in writing contracts is "yours, plus all your ancestors combined and your entire party plus all their ancestors, plus Yes".

When making a deal with Asmodeus the following laws apply:

You lose.
You don't get to maybe break even.
You can't escape.


Any PC who makes a deal with big A and actually win has done something akin to beating Io at arm wrestling. You have bragging rights for ever.

[Vhaidara]

I, for one, refuse to be pidgeonholed into only one flavor of Evil. There's such variety and nuance between them, I couldn't possibly...

Red, you know that you're LE. if for no other reason than because you are far far too methodical to be anything else.

I almost want to GM a campaign for the 9 people we get for the 9 alignments. Or at least get characters made. Then, when a disagreement pops up, we deal with it the old fashioned way: death battle.

It would ensure that LG never wins, since it would have a Paladin (class) representing it :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

Red, you know that you're LE. if for no other reason than because you are far far too methodical to be anything else.
Seconded.


It would ensure that LG never wins, since it would have a Paladin (class) representing it :smalltongue:
I felt that pointed comment even when I wasn't on the forum anymore.

[Dgrin]

I almost want to GM a campaign for the 9 people we get for the 9 alignments. Or at least get characters made. Then, when a disagreement pops up, we deal with it the old fashioned way: death battle.

It would ensure that LG never wins, since it would have a Paladin (class) representing it :smalltongue:

If you seriously want to do that, it is actually bad idea to encourage PvP cause it will force people to make more optimised characters for the game which is supposed to be social absurd. I'd rather make flavorful character just for the sake of it and be able to not care about my power level. Or at least try that once :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

I'll put 10gp on Red Fel secretly being Asmodeus.

... Secretly?


When making a deal with Asmodeus the following laws apply:

You lose.
You don't get to maybe break even.
You can't escape.


I liked it better when performed by the Scarecrow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r1ssg1LIt4).


It would ensure that LG never wins, since it would have a Paladin (class) representing it :smalltongue:

Now, this bothers me, frankly. Yes, Paladins are quintessentially LG, but is LG quintessentially a Paladin? Can you all honestly say that the ultimate LG must be a Paladin? Because I'm not convinced.

[Grim Portent]

I, for one, refuse to be pidgeonholed into only one flavor of Evil.

Hmm, I would have to say you've never really struck me as the CE or NE sort. You appear to lack the whimsy of chaos and the spiteful indifference of neutrality.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you ever had someone you dislike ask you for advice? Have you ever decided that you were going to give them advice that technically fell perfectly within the bounds of the advice they asked while being as unhelpful as possible.

Think about how much fun it is to be purposefully unhelpful as you watch them get more frustrated as they they either feel like they can't properly articulate what they want to you or you continue give give them advice that can't possibly help.

I've always felt that that's what LE is like. If you're LE you don't want to try to cheat any contract; you just want to find a way to be as unhelpful as possible within the confines of the contract. Staying within the contract is what makes it fun.

I've always felt that Asmodeus extends that felling of animosity to everyone in the universe.

[Dgrin]

Now, this bothers me, frankly. Yes, Paladins are quintessentially LG, but is LG quintessentially a Paladin? Can you all honestly say that the ultimate LG must be a Paladin? Because I'm not convinced.

Considering it is going to be played by LoyalPaladin... I'd say that's quite likely :smallwink:

[Vhaidara]

Now, this bothers me, frankly. Yes, Paladins are quintessentially LG, but is LG quintessentially a Paladin? Can you all honestly say that the ultimate LG must be a Paladin? Because I'm not convinced.

Because the person building it would be LoyalPaladin, who has stated his opinion on the fact that Paladins make the worst Paladins.

[LoyalPaladin]

Because the person building it would be LoyalPaladin, who has stated his opinion on the fact that Paladins make the worst Paladins.
Sigh... and I repeat:

I knew this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18793268&postcount=19) would come back to haunt me.

[Jormengand]

Hahaha. Only if true neutral has to post entirely in white when they are speaking from their alignment's perspective.

I can deal with that.

[LoyalPaladin]

I can deal with that.
I appreciate your cooperation.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

While it may not be technically cannon, it's groups like this that actually make me love this game so much. Yes Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, but when you see things like this happen you can't help but wonder if he really is an extremely lawful good person that is just acting out a lie to the rest of the world because he knows that without someone to fill the part he's playing, the world wouldn't exist as it should. It reminds me of the Incarnations of Immortality series, and the guy who was Satan that used to be a priest, because at the time if he hadn't taken up the mantle then someone infinitely worse would have done so.


http://nat1blogging.tumblr.com/post/70382833799/tariqk-nat1blogging-christmas-type-furret

Whoa dude good find such a sad story ordering your followers to unintentionally murder your family for the greater good....

[dascarletm]

I, for one, refuse to be pidgeonholed into only one flavor of Evil. There's such variety and nuance between them, I couldn't possibly...



... yeah, you know what? You can keep it. I know where it's been.

And it appears that we may be derailing this thread, just a touch. Just a touch.

Just as planned.

I agree you could definitely rock a killer CE but search your heart, your cold black vile heart. You know you are lawful deep down!


I appreciate your cooperation.

Don't Listen to him! Fight the power!.... Then bring it to it's knees.


Edit: To the making a game thing... I think what we really should do is we get everyone to make characters that still work well together/don't seek to betray each other. We shall set a shining example, and when people complain that they cannot have X alignment in their game we link this one.

[illyahr]

Edit: To the making a game thing... I think what we really should do is we get everyone to make characters that still work well together/don't seek to betray each other. We shall set a shining example, and when people complain that they cannot have X alignment in their game we link this one.

Dibs on CG Bard Diplomancer. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Edit: To the making a game thing... I think what we really should do is we get everyone to make characters that still work well together/don't seek to betray each other. We shall set a shining example, and when people complain that they cannot have X alignment in their game we link this one.

I see it as more of a slice of life sitcom. (Today, on a very special episode of Misaligned...) You know, CG, the plucky kid with a heart of gold, and his two best friends, NG (the boisterous but caring girl on whom he develops a secret crush which he doesn't understand because, duh, she's almost like a sister or something and that'd be weird) and LG (the nervous one who hates how his friends are always breaking the rules and getting into trouble, but he hangs out with them anyway because they're his friends and hey you guys don't we have homework?); his older brother, CN, who alternately picks on and ignores him; his disaffected artiste sister TN, who is just bored with everything; LN, the self-important teacher's pet and hall monitor who would like to take a moment to remind you that you shouldn't be doing that; CE, the school bully, 'nuff said; NE, basically the entire teaching staff; and LE, the most popular kid in school and student body president.

... What do you mean, wish fulfillment?

[hamishspence]

I see it as more of a slice of life sitcom. (Today, on a very special episode of Misaligned...) You know, CG, the plucky kid with a heart of gold, and his two best friends, NG (the boisterous but caring girl on whom he develops a secret crush which he doesn't understand because, duh, she's almost like a sister or something and that'd be weird) and LG (the nervous one who hates how his friends are always breaking the rules and getting into trouble, but he hangs out with them anyway because they're his friends and hey you guys don't we have homework?); his older brother, CN, who alternately picks on and ignores him; his disaffected artiste sister TN, who is just bored with everything; LN, the self-important teacher's pet and hall monitor who would like to take a moment to remind you that you shouldn't be doing that; CE, the school bully, 'nuff said; NE, basically the entire teaching staff; and LE, the most popular kid in school and student body president.

Sounds a bit like Harry Potter, with a few gender swaps and additions.

[illyahr]

I see it as more of a slice of life sitcom. (Today, on a very special episode of Misaligned...) You know, CG, the plucky kid with a heart of gold, and his two best friends, NG (the boisterous but caring girl on whom he develops a secret crush which he doesn't understand because, duh, she's almost like a sister or something and that'd be weird) and LG (the nervous one who hates how his friends are always breaking the rules and getting into trouble, but he hangs out with them anyway because they're his friends and hey you guys don't we have homework?); his older brother, CN, who alternately picks on and ignores him; his disaffected artiste sister TN, who is just bored with everything; LN, the self-important teacher's pet and hall monitor who would like to take a moment to remind you that you shouldn't be doing that; CE, the school bully, 'nuff said; NE, basically the entire teaching staff; and LE, the most popular kid in school and student body president.

... What do you mean, wish fulfillment?

Maybe not the entire staff as NE, just the Principal. The teachers are just afraid of him/her. :smallsmile:

Ooh, maybe have the teaching staff divided up as the previous generation but this time maybe that NE bastard will get his comeuppance and the students get small under-the-table favors to take him/her down! Like the Gym teacher is CE, the music teacher is NG, etc.

[Segev]

The trouble with volunteering to speak for NE is that there are so many takes on it. Mine is particular and party-friendly. Not friendly to the party's enemies, of course, but what rational individual is kind to those who both oppose them and are weaker?

Unless they're useful, of course.

[Telonius]

Dibs on Chaotic Evil!

So that's settled - I'll be CE. (As though we'd respect something like "dibs." :sabine:)

The thing with CE, is that you've got to really have style to pull it off. LE? Any boring old tyrant will do. It won't be memorable, but it's a fill-in-the-blanks BBEG, and it works. A chaotic BBEG without style - that's just boring. Pointless. Somebody mentioned Incarnations of Immortality a little earlier - in "For Love of Evil," Satan's replacement was pretty clearly a CE villain with no style, and the rest of the Incarnations reinstated Satan because the new Evil had just gotten pointless.

If we're going by Kellus's Third Alignment Axis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!), you've got to be CEF in order to make it work. The Joker's the best example of it I can think of, but there are others.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I wish we had more strongly aligned forum members. It'd be nice to get one of each of the nine alignments and have them debate the merits of their favorite alignment. I could sell popcorn.

I call Chaotic Neutral. I always call Chaotic Neutral.

Good and Evil are two sides of the same coin. So, what's the coin worth?

[LoyalPaladin]

What do you mean, wish fulfillment?
I didn't need a spot check to see what you were doing there.


To the making a game thing... I think what we really should do is we get everyone to make characters that still work well together/don't seek to betray each other. We shall set a shining example, and when people complain that they cannot have X alignment in their game we link this one.
Sure, we can just ignore the Paladin's "you cannot adventure with x" class feature. We'll just say LG is working on the other alignments. Haha.


If we're going by Kellus's Third Alignment Axis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!).
What the... I don't... what even...

[dascarletm]

So that's settled - I'll be CE. (As though we'd respect something like "dibs." :sabine:)

The thing with CE, is that you've got to really have style to pull it off. LE? Any boring old tyrant will do. It won't be memorable, but it's a fill-in-the-blanks BBEG, and it works. A chaotic BBEG without style - that's just boring. Pointless. Somebody mentioned Incarnations of Immortality a little earlier - in "For Love of Evil," Satan's replacement was pretty clearly a CE villain with no style, and the rest of the Incarnations reinstated Satan because the new Evil had just gotten pointless.

If we're going by Kellus's Third Alignment Axis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!), you've got to be CEF in order to make it work. The Joker's the best example of it I can think of, but there are others.

Luckilly I'm confident in my ability to hold back all you would be pretenders to my position, or at least I'm confident that the pleas of mercy from everyone you hold dear will keep you from attempting anything

Oh, but you're willing to to sacrifice them in order to achieve this? That's just what I thought you would do...:smallamused:

[Elricaltovilla]

All of you doing this should have your characters' initials be the same as their alignment. Like Craig Giantsbane the CG Barbarian, or Luke Gianstickuphisbutt, the LG Paladin.:smalltongue:

I'd join in, but the only side I regularly vouch for is martials over casters. The petty squabbles of good vs. evil and law vs. chaos are nothing compared to the epic battles of sword vs. spell. :smallamused:

[Bad Wolf]

All of you doing this should have your characters' initials be the same as their alignment. Like Craig Giantsbane the CG Barbarian, or Luke Gianstickuphisbutt, the LG Paladin.:smalltongue:

I'd join in, but the only side I regularly vouch for is martials over casters. The petty squabbles of good vs. evil and law vs. chaos are nothing compared to the epic battles of sword vs. spell. :smallamused:

Caleb Nishwol, the CN sorcerer.

Hmm...I like the sound of that.

[Jormengand]

What the... I don't... what even...

I call Neutral-Neutral-Neutral.

Anyway, if we're having an all-alignments game, I wanna TN. :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

Luke Gianstickuphisbutt, the LG Paladin.:smalltongue:
More like Luke Gettingrealtiredofthepaladinhate.


I call Neutral-Neutral-Neutral.

Anyway, if we're having an all-alignments game, I wanna TN. :smalltongue:
I think it is actually impossible for me to not appreciate this.

[atemu1234]

I can deal with that.

Hey, I called dibs. :smalltongue:

Maybe I should be Chaotic Neutral.

[Elricaltovilla]

More like Luke Gettingrealtiredofthepaladinhate.


I'll put it to you this way: I like the idea of the Paladin, I've just never seen it executed properly. Except, for some reason, in 5e. The 5e Paladin makes me want to try playing a Paladin, which is bad because I don't have $50-$150 to spend on anything much less gaming books, especially since I'd have no one to play with. I'd have to run the damn game, which means I wouldn't even get to play the paladin.:smallannoyed:

So that's why I hate paladins. I also happen to think they'd be much better served as a Prestige Class instead of a Base Class, but that's just me.

[illyahr]

Christopher Goldsun: actor, singer, all-around troubadour.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'll put it to you this way: I like the idea of the Paladin, I've just never seen it executed properly.
You need to play with my Paladin. Gallant Holyshield, Paladin of Torm and son of the Firestar.


The 5e Paladin makes me want to try playing a Paladin
I just bought the books... they are super cool... 5e makes me want to run an oathbreaker. Which is against my code.

[Vhaidara]

You need to play with my Paladin. Gallant Holyshield, Paladin of Torm and son of the Firestar.

I think he meant mechanically. To which I offer Silver Crane Warders (and Black Seraph Warlords are the evil counterpart)


I just bought the books... they are super cool... 5e makes me want to run an oathbreaker. Which is against my code.

Well, the system could be what was corrupt, not you. The church you swore the oath to became corrupt, and so you had to violate your oath in order to maintain your honor.

[Elricaltovilla]

You need to play with my Paladin. Gallant Holyshield, Paladin of Torm and son of the Firestar.

Tell me more of this mythical Paladin that isn't terrible and completely shafted by the game mechanics and conceits of the designers...


I just bought the books... they are super cool... 5e makes me want to run an oathbreaker. Which is against my code.

Yeah, I have a Half-Orc Paladin of Vengeance cooking around in my head that I want to run so badly. But like I said, even if I had the books, I'm the only one I know of who'd run the game. Which means no PC for me.

[dascarletm]

Cecil Evans... Just another stand-up guy.

[LoyalPaladin]

I think he meant mechanically. To which I offer Silver Crane Warders (and Black Seraph Warlords are the evil counterpart)

I've never heard of those? Please educate me!


Well, the system could be what was corrupt, not you. The church you swore the oath to became corrupt, and so you had to violate your oath in order to maintain your honor.
I like that idea. I'd have to really pitch it hard to my DM... considering 5e Paladins do necromancy and evil things... haha.


Tell me more of this mythical Paladin that isn't terrible and completely shafted by the game mechanics and conceits of the designers...
I play at a pretty RP intense table. So we may be on two different pages, like Keledrath suggested.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think he meant mechanically. To which I offer Silver Crane Warders (and Black Seraph Warlords are the evil counterpart)


Well yeah, I'm already running one of those in a game. But Paladin isn't quite how I'd describe him as he's very... Chaotic good.


I've never heard of those? Please educate me!


The Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder). The Warder Guide I Wrote (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit?usp=sharing).

The Silver Crane Discipline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/silver-crane-maneuvers).

You kind of need to be a member of the Empyreal Guardians (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/empyreal-guardians) so you can swap out a discipline for Silver Crane, but it plays very much like I feel a paladin should.

[Vhaidara]

I've never heard of those? Please educate me!

Warder is the Path of War tank class. Silver Crane is the Good Guy discipline (Detect Evil as a stance, healing, sacred damage strikes). So you combine Silver Crane on a Warder with another discipline for your combat style (Iron Tortoise for Sword and Board, Primal Fury for 2 handed, Scarlet Throne for einhander, Solar Wind for ranged, Broken Blade for unarmed, Thrashing Dragon for TWF) and boom, you have a functional paladin.

[LoyalPaladin]

The Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder). The Warder Guide I Wrote (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit?usp=sharing).

The Silver Crane Discipline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/silver-crane-maneuvers).

You kind of need to be a member of the Empyreal Guardians (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/empyreal-guardians) so you can swap out a discipline for Silver Crane, but it plays very much like I feel a paladin should.
Oooooo readstuffs.

Oh, its Pathfinder. That's why I didn't know it! I've never played Pathfinder. Always meant to... never did. I'm a 3.5 guy and I like to smite evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385211-How-is-my-Paladin-build&p=18446852#post18446852).

[Elricaltovilla]

Paladins still have smite evil in Pathfinder. It even lasts until the target is dead, so you get a lot more out of it. And Silver Crane has great smite-like maneuvers. Like the ones that target ethereal possessing creatures without harming the host.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Maybe I should be Chaotic Neutral.

I'm afraid you're a little late on that. Cecil Natorm will see to it.

[LoyalPaladin]

Paladins still have smite evil in Pathfinder. It even lasts until the target is dead, so you get a lot more out of it. And Silver Crane has great smite-like maneuvers. Like the ones that target ethereal possessing creatures without harming the host.
Oh, I just meant in general. Not that you couldn't in pathfinder. May I should have made that a stand alone sentence.

[Telonius]

Name for the Chaotic Evil guy?

Lance Goodwin.

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh, I just meant in general. Not that you couldn't in pathfinder. May I should have made that a stand alone sentence.

S'all good. If you do get a chance to play Pathfinder, I do highly recommend Dreamscarred Press's Material, They make some excellent stuff. I consider myself very fortunate to work with them.

[Red Fel]

S'all good. If you do get a chance to play Pathfinder, I do highly recommend Dreamscarred Press's Material, They make some excellent stuff. I consider myself very fortunate to work with them.

Seconded. DSP may be third party, but it's high quality, readily available, and sort of considered almost-but-not-quite-first-party as a result.

As an aside, you really ought to take a crack at the PF Paladin. One of my favorite Pally builds of all time was a Monkadin in a Monkadin PrC (Champion of Irori) that did an outstanding job of weaponizing Wis and Cha. It's still not the most optimized class, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of what it was in 3.5.

As another aside... Is the OP even a thing at this point? Can we go back there? Or is it kind of gone now? LE's a bit lost, here.

[Elricaltovilla]

Seconded. DSP may be third party, but it's high quality, readily available, and sort of considered almost-but-not-quite-first-party as a result.

As an aside, you really ought to take a crack at the PF Paladin. One of my favorite Pally builds of all time was a Monkadin in a Monkadin PrC (Champion of Irori) that did an outstanding job of weaponizing Wis and Cha. It's still not the most optimized class, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of what it was in 3.5.

As another aside... Is the OP even a thing at this point? Can we go back there? Or is it kind of gone now? LE's a bit lost, here.

I actually think we kind of settled the issue, didn't we? Everyone seems to be in agreement that Asmodeus is indeed Lawful Evil, he just happens to be so Ancient, Clever, and Powerful that it feels like he's a backstabbing, cheating bastard. Which he is, he just doesn't have to break the rules to do it.

[Red Fel]

I actually think we kind of settled the issue, didn't we? Everyone seems to be in agreement that Asmodeus is indeed Lawful Evil, he just happens to be so Ancient, Clever, and Powerful that it feels like he's a backstabbing, cheating bastard. Which he is, he just doesn't have to break the rules to do it.

I know, but talking about the paragon of LE always gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling in my...

... soul...

... heart...

... wait, I know this one...

[LoyalPaladin]

S'all good. If you do get a chance to play Pathfinder, I do highly recommend Dreamscarred Press's Material
I'll see if maybe I can hop in on my friend's campaign he hosts in PF. I'm already running two and playing on... but hey... 4 days a week of D&D isn't obsessive. Right?


LE's a bit lost, here.
Step into the light and be found, my long lost brother.


I actually think we kind of settled the issue, didn't we?
I think we solved the issue pretty quickly. Then it all went to pieces when we formed the Order of the Nine Alignments.

[Elricaltovilla]

I know, but talking about the paragon of LE always gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling in my...

... soul...

... heart...

... wait, I know this one...

Ribcage? Apparently "Ribcage?" is less than 10 characters long, so instead I'll expand the number of characters via this rambling sentence explaining why I need extra characters to post my response to Red Fel's post.

[atemu1234]

I know, but talking about the paragon of LE always gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling in my...

... soul...

... heart...

... wait, I know this one...

Spleen? Sphincter?

[Bad Wolf]

Spleen? Sphincter?

Probably the latter.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think we solved the issue pretty quickly. Then it all went to pieces when we formed the Order of the Nine Alignments.

I seem to be developing a talent for taking threads off topic.

[LoyalPaladin]

Spleen? Sphincter?
I betcha the warmth is from the fresh blood on his twisted +3 Goodsbane Unholy Dagger of Backstabbing. Sounds like a LE item.


I seem to be developing a talent for taking threads off topic.
Eh. Its not against the law, so I see no issue.

[Elricaltovilla]

Eh. Its not against the law, so I see no issue.

Cool, I'm curious what you'd do to handle a situation like THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18717502&postcount=37) though, since I'm pretty sure that is against the law.

[LoyalPaladin]

Cool, I'm curious what you'd do to handle a situation like THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18717502&postcount=37) though, since I'm pretty sure that is against the law.
If flying: Detect Evil>Knight's Move>Grapple> Fall to both our deaths.
If on ground: Detect Evil>Knight's Move>Awesome Smite (Trip)>Smite Attack

Rinse repeat???

[Elricaltovilla]

If flying: Detect Evil>Knight's Move>Grapple> Fall to both our deaths.
If on ground: Detect Evil>Knight's Move>Awesome Smite (Trip)>Smite Attack

Rinse repeat???

Suitably direct for a paladin. I probably should have linked the entire thread, but whatevskies. It relies on the assumption that the mysterious fireballing figure gets away the first time, as that was what was posted in the OP.

[LoyalPaladin]

Suitably direct for a paladin. I probably should have linked the entire thread, but whatevskies. It relies on the assumption that the mysterious fireballing figure gets away the first time, as that was what was posted in the OP.
Oh. Well if you got away I'd have to handle it like the rest of the world. Keep calm and detect evil. Wait... everyone can detect evil right? No? Well then as a Paladin I am also a great team player! Ask the Wizard to use divination. Then begin as per my last post.

Unless no one knows about the person. In which case I'd still constantly detect evil as I always do when I am in a bad situation... or in any situation... or sometimes just when I am getting ready in the morning.

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh. Well if you got away I'd have to handle it like the rest of the world. Keep calm and detect evil. Wait... everyone can detect evil right? No? Well then as a Paladin I am also a great team player! Ask the Wizard to use divination. Then begin as per my last post.

Unless no one knows about the person. In which case I'd still constantly detect evil as I always do when I am in a bad situation... or in any situation... or sometimes just when I am getting ready in the morning.

But how do you overcome the almighty lead sheet?

[LoyalPaladin]

But how do you overcome the almighty lead sheet?
You know, the funny thing about that is we always joke that my Paladin is Superman and our Swordsage is Batman.

To overcome that, I just have to hunt down his cohorts and get them to out him. If he has none? Well then I am out of options. Just gotta do what I always do...

[sage20500]

I'll put it to you this way: I like the idea of the Paladin, I've just never seen it executed properly. Except, for some reason, in 5e. The 5e Paladin makes me want to try playing a Paladin, which is bad because I don't have $50-$150 to spend on anything much less gaming books, especially since I'd have no one to play with. I'd have to run the damn game, which means I wouldn't even get to play the paladin.:smallannoyed:

So that's why I hate paladins. I also happen to think they'd be much better served as a Prestige Class instead of a Base Class, but that's just me.

You should see my paladin Sophiea in action at some point. She's a lawful good paladin of heironeous, but she's basically played like Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files. She adventures to try and just help people. She doesn't try and impose her religion on others, but she's always there to help anyone who is in need or has fallen. She doesn't try to actively kill anyone who is evil, but if your a person who is trying to harm an innocent then Heironeous help you, cause she will put a stop to it. Best of all, she has an awakened rhino as a cohort named George who is also a paladin, and my god anyone who sees him swears they have never seen a dog that was so damn ugly.

[skypse]

Supposedly he's the purest embodiment of LE alignment.

But he's also called "The Lord of Lies" and a large amount of what's written about him seems to be about him stabbing people in the back, lying or cheating more than anything else. In Pathfinder one of the defining moments of Golarion's creation is him murdering his brother in an act of treachery.

Which all sounds like the opposite of lawful.

A Lawful Evil character will lie if able and if he believes that this is beneficial to his path towards his ultimate goals. Asmodeus is like a lawmaker and a lawyer at the same time. He will create a law which will seem absolute but will have 1 loophole, and then he will use that law in every chance he has, always exploiting the loophole. Asmodeus will always be loyal and respectful of his contracts so if someone manages to corner him in a way that prevents him from lying or undoing something later on, then he will not do so. After all Abadar has given him the key to his vault under a contract which should be telling us something. :)

[AnonymousPepper]

Since we're discussing alignments: what truly differentiates LG from NG? Bearing in mind that the stick-up-the-rear I AM THE LAW "LG" is just a caricature, and true LG is balanced out with compassion... what, then, is Neutral Good? For the longest time, until I got it into my head that Lawful Stupid needs to be thrown out a window, that was how I pictured NG, but... yeah.

[skypse]

I think that LG sticks to his ideals no matter what and he follows his moral or Deity. NG is more free (just like every N alignment) meaning that a NG character cares about the greater good of the whole world instead of the greater good that serves his deity. Mother Teresa would be NG while (well none really) let's say the Pope is LG.

[goto124]

LOLful.

I have nothing else to say.

[Psyren]

Since we're discussing alignments: what truly differentiates LG from NG? Bearing in mind that the stick-up-the-rear I AM THE LAW "LG" is just a caricature, and true LG is balanced out with compassion... what, then, is Neutral Good? For the longest time, until I got it into my head that Lawful Stupid needs to be thrown out a window, that was how I pictured NG, but... yeah.

A NG person would have no problems with lying or ignoring a law (or even their own personal code, if they had one) so long as it means doing the most good. It means they have no qualms about alternating between LG and CG tactics as the situation warrants. For example, if you are in a crowded bazaar and happen to spot a grifter running a rigged game of chance to steal a poor person's money, the LG approach would be to alert the authorities, or at least threaten the grifter that you will alert them unless he returns the stolen money. The CG approach meanwhile would be to pick the grifter's pocket and return the money that way, or perhaps beat the grifter at his own game by cheating, or even intimidate him into giving up the cash with humiliation or (nonlethal) physical harm.

The NG meanwhile would pick whichever approach is most likely to work. They would involve the authorities if that was easiest, or they would cheat/steal/browbeat the money back if that was easiest, and have no strong ideological preference for any one of these over the other. To the NG, the end goal is what matters most, not the means of achieving it.

[Amphetryon]

While it may not be technically cannon, it's groups like this that actually make me love this game so much. Yes Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, but when you see things like this happen you can't help but wonder if he really is an extremely lawful good person that is just acting out a lie to the rest of the world because he knows that without someone to fill the part he's playing, the world wouldn't exist as it should. It reminds me of the Incarnations of Immortality series, and the guy who was Satan that used to be a priest, because at the time if he hadn't taken up the mantle then someone infinitely worse would have done so.


http://nat1blogging.tumblr.com/post/70382833799/tariqk-nat1blogging-christmas-type-furret

Aaaand, my Dwarf Rogue/Silver Key has a new mission. :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Because needless strife and conflict is usually detrimental to Good causes, I would go so far as to say that the NG type would have a slight preference for reporting to the authorities, as long as he was reasonably sure the authorities would be able and willing to resolve the problem appropriately.

The CG type would not trust the authorities, inherently. Maybe not to the point that he thinks they're corrupt, but at least to the point that he isn't going to think they have more business resolving it than he does.

The NG type, if he felt the authorities would be unable (too slow, lacking power, etc.) or unwilling (too corrupt, the law actually doesn't forbid this behavior) is more likely to take direct action.

The LG type, if he thought authorities would be unable, is likely to seek them for permission, or to still take matters into his own hands and then turn the grifter over to the authorities. If he thought they would be unwilling due to corruption, he again would likely take matters into his own hands, but do so as strictly close to the LETTER of the law as he could in order to embarass or force the authorities to enforce the law upon the grifter.

In any event, all three would have the option of publicly pointing out the scam, which would be something they'd eventually resort to (some faster than others) just to warn off the victims.

[LoyalPaladin]

Since we're discussing alignments: what truly differentiates LG from NG? Bearing in mind that the stick-up-the-rear I AM THE LAW "LG" is just a caricature, and true LG is balanced out with compassion... what, then, is Neutral Good? For the longest time, until I got it into my head that Lawful Stupid needs to be thrown out a window, that was how I pictured NG, but... yeah.
Use this (http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html) site, it will paint a clear picture of Lawful Good (http://www.easydamus.com/lawfulgood.html) and Neutral Good (http://www.easydamus.com/neutralgood.html) for you.

[Segev]

One thing that helps me when I think of Alignment and the difference between NG, LG, LN, etc. is to think of it not as a square grid (the way it's often depicted), but as a circle.

If you like math and geometry, specifically a unit circle, with the outer edge being absolutely as extreme as you can get in alignment. The axes remain Law/Chaos and Good/Evil (ethical and moral).

If you are Lawful Good, the most extreme you can be as a Lawful Good person is still less Good than a Neutral Good person, and still less Lawful than a Lawful Neutral person. You will compromise some aspect of Good for the sake of Law, and you will compromise some aspect of Law for the sake of Good. You will do your best to uphold both, but occasionally the Law must be bent for the greater Good, and occasionally some lack of mercy must be shown to even the deserving to preserve Order. (Of course, in both cases, the LG individual attempts to mitigate the "wrong" according to his ethical or moral beliefs as much as he personally can.)

A Neutral Good person can be truly 100% Good, because he does not care about ethical considerations. He does still have hard choices at times - mercy cannot be absolute when it would allow evildoers to harm others - but it is never a question of whether to obey the law or to respect somebody's freedom. He cares about what is best for people. He will respect your freedom for yourself, though he will also seek to encourage you along paths he believes most beneficial. However, he will be far faster to infringe on your freedom to swing your fist in the presence of others' faces than would the CG type.

NG is going to appreciate laws insofar as they help support morality. Not "legislating morality," but providing a framework where all can agree on standards. But he will never let them get in the way of what's right; they are suggestions and standards, not iron-clad rules the way that the LN and even LG type tends to view them.


CG is not as good as NG, nor as choatic as CN. CG types will hesitate to infringe others' freedoms even when they could hurt others. They will, eventually, do so (less C than CN), but they'll want to wait longer to be sure it's necessary. They may appreciate suggestions and standards as much as the NG type, but they truly treat them as suggestions, not even as "standards." Traditions are important and fine, but should only be followed if they're truly useful, and should constantly be tested for flaws. Where the NG type will flout tradition the moment it becomes apparent it is getting in the way of The Right Thing, CG types will be eager to try abandoning them if there is so much as a possibility they could cause trouble. They might go back to them if the lack proves worse, but they'll be quick to risk the harm.

But still, they will adhere to traditions even to the detriment of personal freedom if it can be shown that it really, truly is the best way to keep people safe and happy. Like the LG sort wants to mitigate any confusion or disorder caused in the name of Good, the CG sort will want to personally mitigate any loss of freedom such adherence creates...but they still are balancing Good and Free-spiritedness.

LN sorts are absolutely lawful, if they're at the extreme of their alignment. To them, order is primary. Rules and traditions are iron-clad, and should only change according to established practices for changing them. Failing that, they only should change if they're self-contradictory or are inviting corrupt, uneven application of themselves. Even then through as lawful and orderly a process as possible. More than any other alignment, LN hates war. War means that the rules have been broken, or worse, have broken down.

LN will not compromise the law for their own selfish aims, nor for the greater good. THey view LG types as generally okay and nice people, but too willing to break the rules just because it's convenient.


CN is all about personal freedom. They largely respect that all people have it and deserve it, though they will almost certainly err on the side of their personal freedom over anybody else's, if they have to make a choice. Note, this is "err on the side of," not "always choose." They don't harm people just because they can or because it's convenient, and they do recognize that there is such a thing as going too far.

Even they accept laws as suggestions, if only because it could be that they represent the best way to do something (like instructions for putting together your IKEA furniture). But they aer also absolutely willing to throw out the rules and try something different at the first hint that there might be a better - or just more fun - way. They also will not follow suggestions they feel are detrimental, unless it's just to test it once when it won't cost them much.

CN types also respect that they need to defend others' freedoms, too. They tend to share the "you should take care of yourself" mentality of the southerly alignment axis, because they're neutral wrt morality. Thus, if your right to swing your fist might carry it into my face, the CN sort will expound about how my right to raise my arm to block your fist is likewise extended, and that you should keep in mind that I, too, have a right to swing my fist in varying proximity to your face.

They will also, however, acknowledge that just because you cannot adequately block somebody's fist does not mean they should be allowed to swing it at your face. A CN sort likely will stand up for my face's protection, exercising HIS right to swing his fist and block yours, if he recognizes that you're using your right to swing your fist to impinge my rights to do things.

Unlike the CG sort, however, they won't feel a duty to stop it in any sort of pre-emptive way, and would be loath to get involved at all if they didn't know very clearly what was going on. CG types will get involved and err on the side of protecting the apparent victim. NG types would get involved to protect the victim, period, even before the blow looked inevitable. CN types would likely let the beating continue just long enough to be sure that it was a beating and not a misunderstanding, as it's not their business until it becomes clear that you're being a tyrant. Even then...they may choose not to care.

The southerly parts of the alignment axis will again comrpomise their self-interest in the name of their ethical proclivities, unless they're NE. LE accepts that sometimes, they lose "the game" and can't twist the law to their personal advantage. CE is all about might makes right, and will give up on their goals to preserve their freedoms or to gain more liberties. NE is absolutely, utterly selfish, and will exploit the law where convenient while flouting it where not. A CE sort would likely never consider abusing the law; it's nonsense that anybody would let themselves be held to it. An LE sort would allow themselves to be ensnared by it, as it remains their weapon as long as they comply with it.


So think of the alignment chart as a circle, and the extreme of LG as being not quite as lawful as LN, and not quite as good as NG, and you'll probably have an easier time picking the alignments apart.

[IZ42]

Reading these replies, it makes me think I range between "Help blind old ladies across streets" pure neutral good, to "Power, whatever the cost" Neutral Evil.


Edit: sadly, those two options don't have to be far apart. But they can be.

[Segev]

Reading these replies, it makes me think I range between "Help blind old ladies across streets" pure neutral good, to "Power, whatever the cost" Neutral Evil.


Edit: sadly, those two options don't have to be far apart. But they can be.

NE can help little old ladies across the street. It can even do it selflessly. They might just feel good helping people. What marks NE is that, if they had to abandon that little old lady in the street in front of an oncoming car in order to achieve their goals, they'd do so.

Even if they hadn't planned on it.

Their selfless help didn't cost them anything but a few moments they had to kill anyway. When it suddenly costs them a chance at their goals, however, their withered consciences will not stop them from sacrificing that same little old lady to achieve them.

[IZ42]

That's the reason the edit is there. :smalltongue: