Various 3.5 questions

[thecrimsondawn]

Hi everyone,
I made an account here since the community has had an answer for nearly every question I have had for d&d for a very long time now, and as fate would have it, I ran into one that I either cant find an answer on, or a clarification for. I hope that you guys may be able to help :)

So to start off - Chameleon Prc (Races of Destiny variant, p. 111)

One of the class features has me a tad confused - Aptitude Focus

" Once per day, you can select one of five areas upon which to focus your ever-shifting talents. After meditating for 1 hour, you gain the chosen abilities for 24 hours or until you change your aptitude focus. An aptitude focus ability is usable once per day at 1st level, twice per day at 5th level, and three times per day at 10th level. At 5th level, you can change your aptitude focus one time per day, and at 10th level you can change your aptitude focus two times per day. If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required)."

So from this it says I gain its ability for 24 hours, yet right after it it says its usable X times per day.
Normally one would assume its talking about changing the focus, but right after that it says another ruling for that, so that knocks that out.
So from this I would assume that I gain the ability stated from my focus for 24 hours, BUT if I use it X times a day, it no longer applies?

Assuming that my above assumption is correct, then how does the arcane/divine casting work then? It comes with its own limit of spells per day and bonus spells for a high caster mod, caps off at 6th level spells, and you are required to obtain your own spells/divine focus to cast anything.
So how does this work?

[Curmudgeon]

An aptitude focus ability is usable once per day at 1st level, twice per day at 5th level, and three times per day at 10th level.

At 5th level, you can change your aptitude focus one time per day, and at 10th level you can change your aptitude focus two times per day.
These two sentence say the same thing; the first one is just more confusing. Selecting an aptitude focus ability like Arcane Focus is using that ability once; after it's been used, you follow the Spells per Day and other sub-ability rules.

[OldTrees1]

Aptitude Focus is like a mask. You can don a mask X/day and that mask will last 24 hours OR until you don a new mask whichever is less.

[thecrimsondawn]

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

Now that I know how that works, I have a follow up question relating to it.

So Ive read a few threads about it, but I seem to be missing something. I see quite a few builds that claim you can get 9th level spells with this class.
With the use of the floating feat, I can totally see lowering a spell level by 1 or even 2, but the spells per day caps off at 6th level spells.

How is it this class can reach the pinnacle of spell casting?

[Crake]

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

Now that I know how that works, I have a follow up question relating to it.

So Ive read a few threads about it, but I seem to be missing something. I see quite a few builds that claim you can get 9th level spells with this class.
With the use of the floating feat, I can totally see lowering a spell level by 1 or even 2, but the spells per day caps off at 6th level spells.

How is it this class can reach the pinnacle of spell casting?

Through an absurd amount of cheese, that is how.

If you use the following feats:
Snowcasting (+1 spell level for cold spells when using snow)
Versatile Spellcaster (spend 2 slots to cast another of 1 level higher)
Heighten spell (to use with versatile spellcaster)
Sanctum spell (+1 spell level when in sanctum)
And for extra credit, if you can squeeze it in with flaws Earth Sense and Earth Spell (+1 spell level when you use heighten)

That's 6 feats, attainable by level 6 with 2 flaws and human, (taking into account that you need able learner to qualify for chameleon)

Those 6 feats, when all used at once, allow someone to cast a spell that is effectively 4 levels higher than the level they are normally capable of casting. So a 2nd level chameleon (character level 7) is normally capable of casting 1 2nd level spell per day. Assuming you have at least +2 modifier to your casting stat, you can use versatile spellcaster to cast a snowcasted, sanctum heightened 2nd level spell as a 6th level spell. With this, you can use your chameleon floating bonus feat to get a bonus 5th level spell slot, via extra spell slot (since it gives you a spell slot of 1 level lower than the highest you can cast, which is 6th). This enables you to (assuming you have a casting modifier of +5 at least) cast a 5th level spell as a "9th" level spell, meaning you can use your level 9 feat to pick up extra slot (8th). With your 8th level spell, you can, in divine focus, cast embrace/shun the dark chaos for all of those 6 feats to get 9th level spell slots, ensuring that you keep sanctum spell or snowcasting to make sure you maintain the prerequisites of the feats.

And that is how you gain 9th level spells by level 9 with a chameleon. At level 12, when you gain double focus, you get double 9s.

Edit: Bonus points if you get 1 level of eidetic wizard for an eidetic spellbook and then use your floating bonus feat from chameleon to constantly get extra spell every day and slowly add every single spell into your eidetic spellbook, making you capable of casting literally every spell in existance (if you keep versatile spellcaster, qualifying through, say, a level of cloistered cleric, or spontaneous divination wizard ACF, you could theoretically cast any arcane spell spontaneously simply by spending 2 spell slots)

[DrKerosene]

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

Now that I know how that works, I have a follow up question relating to it.

So Ive read a few threads about it, but I seem to be missing something. I see quite a few builds that claim you can get 9th level spells with this class.
With the use of the floating feat, I can totally see lowering a spell level by 1 or even 2, but the spells per day caps off at 6th level spells.

How is it this class can reach the pinnacle of spell casting?

I was going to link the Chameleon handbook and explain you'd probably need DM approval for any of the methods to actually "work", but Crake explained you simply need several feats and a snowy fortress somewhere.

However, if your DM allows it, you might be able to use a Theurge PrC to progress the Cleric and/or Wizard casting (or just normally progress one form of casting with another PrC for 9's on one side). You could possible use Uncanny Trickster to extend the classes abilities an additional 2 levels over 3 levels, but that's not getting 9's without other stuff.

[thecrimsondawn]

Woah! Thanks for the detailed info!

Our current DM is brand new to DMing, and every player (save myself) is green as well.
His current setting is a lv10 undead and vile heavy setting with loads of stat drain, ability negative levels, and death spells. On top of that he is using the savage species for some of his monster progressions, making for some incredibly potent encounters. I saw a disaster in the making and decided to join in under some conditions.

The first is that every book for 3.0-3.5 is in play following the basic errata rules should something be rewritten. The second is that templates could be added on and LAs could be used. The third is that anything I make I would cross by him with what it is I am doing, how I am doing it, and ways to deal with said builds. The last is I would help the new players learn what they can and cant do, what they are capable of, and with any luck, how to play there characters without limiting themselves to what is on there sheet (using game world physics and surroundings, biology, ect.)

I am doing this in effect to "train" him how to deal with the inevitable power gamers without simply having to say no to things as well as show the newer players that they can focus on anything they want to do to a near broken level of effect.

This class is going to be given to a player that wanted a non combat rogue that was more like a spy, but also was skilled in unarmed combat.
Right now this is what he looks like

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1136612
(I am allowed to use this link right?)

I figure even tho he cant cast 9th level spells, he can still swap out his floating feat for crafting ones, and effectively make his gear at half the gold cost. Next couple of levels are going into knowledge so that all of them have 5 points (for synergy and for Knowledge Devotion) and of course those levels are going into Chameleon at least until they get both divine and arcane casting.

So what do you guys think? :)

[Pluto!]

I am doing this in effect to "train" him how to deal with the inevitable power gamers without simply having to say no to things as well as show the newer players that they can focus on anything they want to do to a near broken level of effect.

Not sure how this doesn't seem like a really stupid idea.

[Troacctid]

Through an absurd amount of cheese, that is how.

If you use the following feats:
Snowcasting (+1 spell level for cold spells when using snow)
Versatile Spellcaster (spend 2 slots to cast another of 1 level higher)
Heighten spell (to use with versatile spellcaster)
Sanctum spell (+1 spell level when in sanctum)
And for extra credit, if you can squeeze it in with flaws Earth Sense and Earth Spell (+1 spell level when you use heighten)

That's 6 feats, attainable by level 6 with 2 flaws and human, (taking into account that you need able learner to qualify for chameleon)

Those 6 feats, when all used at once, allow someone to cast a spell that is effectively 4 levels higher than the level they are normally capable of casting. So a 2nd level chameleon (character level 7) is normally capable of casting 1 2nd level spell per day. Assuming you have at least +2 modifier to your casting stat, you can use versatile spellcaster to cast a snowcasted, sanctum heightened 2nd level spell as a 6th level spell. With this, you can use your chameleon floating bonus feat to get a bonus 5th level spell slot, via extra spell slot (since it gives you a spell slot of 1 level lower than the highest you can cast, which is 6th). This enables you to (assuming you have a casting modifier of +5 at least) cast a 5th level spell as a "9th" level spell, meaning you can use your level 9 feat to pick up extra slot (8th). With your 8th level spell, you can, in divine focus, cast embrace/shun the dark chaos for all of those 6 feats to get 9th level spell slots, ensuring that you keep sanctum spell or snowcasting to make sure you maintain the prerequisites of the feats.

And that is how you gain 9th level spells by level 9 with a chameleon. At level 12, when you gain double focus, you get double 9s.

Edit: Bonus points if you get 1 level of eidetic wizard for an eidetic spellbook and then use your floating bonus feat from chameleon to constantly get extra spell every day and slowly add every single spell into your eidetic spellbook, making you capable of casting literally every spell in existance (if you keep versatile spellcaster, qualifying through, say, a level of cloistered cleric, or spontaneous divination wizard ACF, you could theoretically cast any arcane spell spontaneously simply by spending 2 spell slots)

Of course, Chameleons can't actually qualify for most of those feats, since they don't naturally have spellcasting and Aptitude Focus can't be used to meet prerequisites for anything.

[thecrimsondawn]

Not sure how this doesn't seem like a really stupid idea.

If you think of everything you can do in 3.5 as a pie chat, every class focuses on a nice sized slice of that pie.
As you level up, you can become "ok" at everything your class does, or you can look to optimize your play style by selecting feats, Prc's, templates, ect to focus heavily on a small part of that slice.
By its nature, you can take any one thing you want to be good at, and become so good at it, you can almost call it broken.
- A good example of this as brought up by my last DM, is the jump skill
If you look around for all the classes, feats, and items that aid with the making of say - a Dragoon concept, you will find that something as simple as the skill jump, can cause massive damage at a rather early level.
Nearly everything in 3.5 is like this, so not being able to deal with a situation can cause negative ripples to spread across your games players, and saying no to things (some exceptions apply) is not a valid method of dealing with a situation.

The players in a game are quite often the hero's or villains of the story, so they should be dam good at whatever the player wants to be good at.
So lets say that Dragoon concept is able to do oh - 500 damage an attack by lv 12. You dont have to nerf or scone that player, but rather be impressed by the build and counter it with any number of spells, items, environment, or encounters.
jump wont help you much under water
being knocked prone, grappled, or otherwise having there movement impaired prevents any crazy type of jump
Or throwing other Dragoons (or something that hunts down dragoon types) into the mix are all just a few options.


I am simply helping the DM look at the many different methods they have for solving a problem, as well as where to draw the line, and he is learning quickly.

The latest example is Iron Heart Surge.
After reading it, he agreed it was very poorly written and ruled that since its a maneuver that allows you to overcome effects, the effects no longer apply to you only. As such, something like say, an anti magic field, would still be in effect for the other players, but would not effect the Martial Adapt that used that boost.

I am also helping the players to think outside the box. The sheet I linked is rather advanced for a new player, and I right up told him that too once I made it. I gave him quite a few options to choose from, but he likes the whole spy deal better, so that is exactly what I am giving him. He is an effective 3.5 Macgyver in the works

[thecrimsondawn]

Of course, Chameleons can't actually qualify for most of those feats, since they don't naturally have spellcasting and Aptitude Focus can't be used to meet prerequisites for anything.

So that would be why I see most Chameleon builds claiming 9th level spells with other caster classes then

Makes sense!

I enjoy making strong builds, but I am not a fan of using cheese (such as the whole dragonwrought kobold true dragon debate) so I wont be giving any player that ever, but knowing that it can be done, and how its done is very helpful to me for my builds.

I think everyone for your time replying to my thread btw :)

[Crake]

Of course, Chameleons can't actually qualify for most of those feats, since they don't naturally have spellcasting and Aptitude Focus can't be used to meet prerequisites for anything.

The only pre-requisite amongst those 6 feats that literally any level 5 character could not manage is the versatile spellcaster requirement of spontaneous spellcasting. All the other feats either have ability prerequisites (you need con and wis 13) or require eachother. Normally I would like to enter the class by wizard 5 and get spontaneous divination, but since chameleon requires cross class wizard skills, that's not an appropriate entry point. Thus my actual favourite entry for this method is factotum 3 (int to everything!) cloistered cleric 1 (fills the spontaneous casting pre-req) eidetic wizard 1 (who doesn't like an eidetic spellbook for your chameleon).

That will cover all the pre-requisites without any ability from aptitude focus, and nothing says that, while aptitude focus cant qualify, that feats cannot be applied to it, so you're all fine and dandy. The only thing that might cause a problem is extra slot requiring a caster level of 4, now that i have a look at it, so you may need to drop that level of eidetic wizard for another level of factotum to get that CL4. Either that, or enter chameleon 1 level later, that wont make much difference, you can still get 9th level spells by 9 if you enter chameleon 1 level later, though you don't get double 9s until 13 that way.

[OldTrees1]

That will cover all the pre-requisites without any ability from aptitude focus, and nothing says that, while aptitude focus cant qualify, that feats cannot be applied to it, so you're all fine and dandy.

You are overlooking what Extra Slot provides its benefit to by RAW. Depending on how you tilt your head, it either might be able to or definitely cannot be applied to Aptitude Focus.

Since both positions are self consistent, neither side will be convinced by the other.

[Chronos]

By the way, a tip: You'll get much more responses to a thread if you let people know what it's about. The title of this thread doesn't tell us anything: We know you're asking 3.5 questions (or possibly Pathfinder questions; close enough) just by virtue of the fact that this thread is in the 3.5/pathfinder forum. And if someone looks at the mouseover, all they'll see is "you guys are great at answering questions", which we also already know.

A much better thread title would be something like "Questions about the Chameleon PrC". That way, people who are interested or knowledgeable in that class would notice it, and might read the thread when they would have skipped it otherwise.

[Crake]

You are overlooking what Extra Slot provides its benefit to by RAW. Depending on how you tilt your head, it either might be able to or definitely cannot be applied to Aptitude Focus.

Since both positions are self consistent, neither side will be convinced by the other.

Eh, I'll take that I guess. I've allowed players to use that trick in my games before, though the one time it happened, the character retired :smalltongue: for both in character and out of character reasons. In character, they had a child, out of character being able to cast double 9s at 12 was boring :smallbiggrin:

[thecrimsondawn]

By the way, a tip: You'll get much more responses to a thread if you let people know what it's about. The title of this thread doesn't tell us anything: We know you're asking 3.5 questions (or possibly Pathfinder questions; close enough) just by virtue of the fact that this thread is in the 3.5/pathfinder forum. And if someone looks at the mouseover, all they'll see is "you guys are great at answering questions", which we also already know.

A much better thread title would be something like "Questions about the Chameleon PrC". That way, people who are interested or knowledgeable in that class would notice it, and might read the thread when they would have skipped it otherwise.

Ahh ya, Originally I was planning to ask a few questions, but due to the nature of the first question I decided to just focus on the single subject. I did not think about renaming the topic at that point.

Thanks for that tho :)