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View Full Version : Player Help Paladin in a group of CE psychopaths (Pathfinder)



Geddy2112
2015-03-03, 12:28 PM
So for the last few sessions of my Thursday night game, the party has killed every new NPC we have met. Every. Single. One. Nobody in the party is outright evil aligned but by action alone most are either chaotic stupid, chaotic evil, or just plain evil. Most of the players, myself included, are veteran gamers but we have 2 newbies. For a long time, the party has been conflicted, and while plenty of actions fell into a moral grey area or leaned towards evil but we all managed to get along. However, as a Paladin of Seranrae I am not sure what I should do when all of my friends are literally axe murdering psychopaths with zero remorse.

The party and recent events:
I am a Paladin of Seranrae, although the DM has modified Seranrae into a homebrew god called Deor, which is basically Seranrae with Catholic wallpaper. Same general theme of redemption, protection, healing. Against evil enemies I smite and use my great sword, but mostly I just buff and heal as needed. I am normally the party face, but our less diplomatic party members are stepping up to the plate and this often ends in bloodshed. By less diplomatic I mean a combination of 10 or less Charisma, no ranks in diplomacy, bluff or sense motive, and an attitude of "agree with us or die".

One of the new players is a halfling druid of plants. He just really likes plants, and rarely talks or goes out of his way to do anything strange. Mostly he just likes using entangle and other plant spells, and finds seeds/plants plants/does druid stuff during RP.

A newish player is a chaotic good orc barbarian. He does a lot of dumb but mostly harmless things like hit people with a dutch oven or attempt to use minor magic items. Much like the druid, sometimes his actions might go evil or off the rocker insane, but it is more in good fun.

The other new player is a flat out remorseless killer. He started out as a Gillman Cavilier of Gozreh, and was fairly normal enough. We had a disagreement once about an enemy, but it was understandable as it was a force that wanted to destroy nature, but was not evil. He also made some new player mistakes but they were honest and we all rectified them easily. I tried diplomacy, he shot it with a bow.
Player had a falling out with the group and left for a while. His new character is a Tiefling alchemist who is some kind of black ops for Gozreh, who basically uses bombs on anything and everything that looks at us funny. A few sessions ago, he stole a sculpture from some dwarves(actually was a coffin for an ancient creature, enter next PC) and then started breaking it open. The dwarves were less than thrilled and shouted at him in Dwarven. Not understanding dwarven, he shouted back in abyssal and threatened to blow up the tavern we were in. Later that session, he held the bartender at bombpoint, tied him down and wired the bar to explode if the bartender moved. The druid and I found out there was a demon under the bar, and the party kills it. Bartender moves, bar blows up, and at this point the town has had enough of the marauding psychopaths and attacks. Being 0 level townfolk, some 9th level PC's and a few scrolls of fireball later, the entire town is dead. Although this escalated over the session, almost every act of antagonization was due to this player and his blow you up style of alchemy. Granted, almost every other PC tried some form of diplomacy and intimidate to calm the town down, but nobody rolled high enough.

A veteran player and good friend of mine has gone through 3 characters in this game by choice. His first left to start a goblin uprising against the orcs in another land, his second retired(he did not like the mechanics of being an orcale. He really likes playing strikers) and his newest is a homebrew race fighter. This homebrew race was preserved due to the magic of the sarcophagus, but his people are now extinct. He is like a werepig, 12' tall and does not speak a single language the party can understand. The only way we can translate is through our grippli NPC, who understands common but cannot speak it. So, language barrier is a bit difficult but we managed to gain his trust after the orc barbarian wrestled him and destroyed most of the bar(pre explosion). After the total massacre of the town, the werepigthing begins to eat the few unburned corpses in front of me(as if I was not upset enough). Two sessions later, we find out he can speak orc(the orc barbarian and almost every other PC can speak it) but that it is beneath him as he is a king. Which we did not know in character,along with any of his back story or anything. The tiefling alchemist prepared tongues, spoke with him, but did not tell any other PC a word of it. I feel that it is inappropriate to bring in a character who is going to act just to test my character, and can speak to the party but basically refuses to.

That players roommate is playing a chaotic neutral/stupid axe wielding gnoll fighter. Most of the time he just does typical fighter stuff, but the last two sessions he has taken over as face and been using the "join or die" approach. The first being a convoy of merchants, who after a pricing disagree end up killed from axes/bombs/plants etc. Wrong place in the wrong time, and they were all killed, stuff stolen, several eaten. Last week, he rolled a nat 20 on an intimidate roll to force an ogre(who had surrendered and was cowering in fear) to pick up an axe. The ogre instead ran, and was killed with an axe in the back. We found the group of ogres in a cave we are going through as part of the main plot, and although we befriended them some of them betrayed us. We killed the ones who betrayed us and the few who remained alive promptly surrendered. The axe murderer and bomber were not having any of that, along with an NPCish goblin gunslinger began headshotting/decapating downed, defenseless enemies. I threw down my sword and yelled for everybody to stop, going as far as to use 3 paladins sacrifice to take hits for ogres, 2 lay on hands to heal them and 2 heroes defiance to save myself when I would have died. Nobody seemed to listen or care as they killed innocent(some of these ogres never even attacked us) life without any remorse. I repeatedly said that I would take the wounds, that you would have to get through me, what your doing is sick, madness etc. This led to us getting heated out of character, as I ask the DM if I detect evil(no), the fighter eggs me on, the werepig gets involved, we stopped the session. Eventually calmer heads prevailed, we all came back to the table and I mediate in character so no violence happens.

The fallout of this was the alchemist asking me when it was okay to shoot innocent people, to which I said never, to which he replied "I have to protect you, but they must die, we can't have witnesses(I don't really understand that) and me saying that I would protect any innocent people so if he wants to keep shooting Im taking the bomb". The druid then informed the party that if we ever fight again he will kill us all in our sleep. We leave the session with a pile of dead ogres, a safe place to rest(maybe) and a questionable goblin with a gun hosting us.

So, what do I do? I have voiced these concerns in and out of game, and the DM has served as a fair arbiter ensuring me that things will be OK, I won't fall, nobody is evil, etc. Our group cohesion in and out of game is stressed: I am the only Lawful or Good party member, and the only player and character that has any problem with the axe murdering, NPC genocide, and actions that generally strain the group dynamic. The thing is, none of this would have happened if I was not being a stick in the mud about everybody having fun. Since everybody else is totally okay with this, I am the odd man out and it is wrong to go against the party. It is a group game, and I should be a team player, so my options are.

1. Stop caring. Just go back to healing and fighting and turn a blind eye. I won't really be playing my character at all, basically I will just be a healbot who smites evil things on occasion. Since the DM basically told me I can't fall under any of the normal rules I can just take a passive stance.

2. Fall. If you cant beat em, join em. The DM said no evil alignments, but he is fine with evil actions.

3. Die/leave/suicide/NPC. Basically something to get a new character that fits better with the party.

4. Leave the game. The group and I disagree, but it is my problem not theirs. I don't fit in, and that is OK. I have played at least one campaign with each of the vet players before so I don't want to lose those friends, and other than the last few weeks I have really enjoyed this campaign(its going on a year or so).

Karl Aegis
2015-03-03, 01:16 PM
You'll probably have to take down the Catholic wallpaper and put something else up. The way you described them, your party embodies the seven deadly sins. Most Catholics would probably be excommunicated for doing what they do.

Kid Jake
2015-03-03, 01:29 PM
Personally I'd retire the character, maybe for later use, and come back with the baby-murderingest, chaotic stupidest monster you can field. If they all think you're being a stick in the mud then commit wholeheartedly to their 'burn it all and never sort it out' style of play; not necessarily out of spite, because that never works out so well, but so that you don't have to feel stressed over their shenanigans undermining your character and can actually sit back and enjoy the insanity like the rest of them.

Dycize
2015-03-03, 01:40 PM
Well you appear to be the minority here, so, yeah.
Option 1 would just be sad. Turning into the party's healbot is just kinda... Ew.
Option 2... Well if you really don't want to lose your paladin. Could be interesting to drop the paladin approach for a more "inquisitor" one but I doubt your character is exactly tailored for that...
Option 3 sounds like your best bet. The people in your party are neither lawful nor good in any way. The moment they end up murdering a village with fireballs on purpose is the moment your paladin is really starting to look like a tool if he sticks around.
Option 4... It's kind of tied to the problem : is it just a character problem or also a player problem? Clearly it has become a problem in character because you play a paladin in a party of psychopaths. But would you be fine playing something that "fit" better in the... "Party dynamic"? Or is it just too "chaotic stupid" for you? If it's the later and you don't think you'll have fun playing such characters, leaving looks like the better option.

illyahr
2015-03-03, 02:05 PM
Personally I'd retire the character, maybe for later use, and come back with the baby-murderingest, chaotic stupidest monster you can field. If they all think you're being a stick in the mud then commit wholeheartedly to their 'burn it all and never sort it out' style of play; not necessarily out of spite, because that never works out so well, but so that you don't have to feel stressed over their shenanigans undermining your character and can actually sit back and enjoy the insanity like the rest of them.

I had to do this in a campaign I played in. Had a LN Halfling Necromancer but the group was playing Chaotic Stupid. I decided to put my Halfling on the back burner and pulled out my CN Wild Elf Scout expy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy) of Jay from Mallrats and Dogma. :smallsmile:

Mr.Moron
2015-03-03, 02:06 PM
Personally I'd retire the character, maybe for later use, and come back with the baby-murderingest, chaotic stupidest monster you can field. If they all think you're being a stick in the mud then commit wholeheartedly to their 'burn it all and never sort it out' style of play; not necessarily out of spite, because that never works out so well, but so that you don't have to feel stressed over their shenanigans undermining your character and can actually sit back and enjoy the insanity like the rest of them.

I second this.

It sounds like you need a character more in-line with the game they're running. I give you permission to use one of the concepts I always lean on for games like this.


Race: Orc - or whatever happens to give the highest strength bonus as available.
Class: Barbarian
Name:When asked his name he simply says "This" and hands the person a crudely drawn picture of him punching his fist through someone's chest.
Hair: Black, perhaps by naturally perhaps just because it's so nasty and dirty. Long, At least shoulder length.
Armpit Hair At least as long as the hair on his head, braided.
Alignment: "**** you"


Gear:
-The "Annihilatron": A Greatsword or the largest weapon available.
-Tattered Loincloth, insufficient for maintaining his modesty. Covered in mysterious greasy stains.
-A large burlap sack filled with onions. He is constantly taking whole bites out of these, raw. Must refill regularly. Will pay exorbitant for onions if his supply gets low.

Tactics:
-Hand-to-Hand Combat (no special abilities for this)
-Trying to strangle enemies with his armpit hair (no special abilities for this?)
-Uses the Annihilatron ONLY against opponents he thinks is worthy.

Fun Facts
-Contrary to appearances he loves to bathe. He will do so at every opportunity and cares little if he has permission to use the vessel he bathes in. He will proceed to take a bath whenever he feels like in whatever he feels like, without asking permission and with little tolerance for interference.

-When he takes a bath little is accomplished, save making him feel refreshed. He never gets clean, dirties any water he bathes in with a seeming never ending supply of grime, skin flakes and grease.

VincentTakeda
2015-03-03, 02:28 PM
You know. I started out thinking oh lord, I'd totally run screaming from this table of simpletons...

But I've changed my vote... I really like this character Mr. Moron's got going on.

I hereby second the nomination for onion orcbarian the fastidious but unclean.

Kid Jake
2015-03-03, 02:44 PM
The only thing I'd change about the orc is that instead of the Annihilatron he would carry a greatsword named "Careful Diplomacy" and a maul named "Sincere Compassion" that way he can still be the Face.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-03, 04:45 PM
A similar situation to yours is what led me to leave RPG's for a while. I realized that I really didn't like hanging around with people who enjoyed pretending to slaughter innocents.

illyahr
2015-03-03, 05:23 PM
The only thing I'd change about the orc is that instead of the Annihilatron he would carry a greatsword named "Careful Diplomacy" and a maul named "Sincere Compassion" that way he can still be the Face.

+1 to this. This is Brilliant. :smallcool:

VincentTakeda
2015-03-03, 05:58 PM
A similar situation to yours is what led me to leave RPG's for a while. I realized that I really didn't like hanging around with people who enjoyed pretending to slaughter innocents.

One of my players wanted to have his 9 year old son join us at the table... As a gaming dad I share the sentiment that getting my son into gaming would be one of the most wonderful possibilities I can think of... The only trepidation would be 'is he up to the task'...

He's been raised on a steady diet of Assassin's Creed up to this point so he's fitting in nicely with this band of murderhobos so far. In fact he's managed to show them up a few times recently in the stone cold killer department which even his dad is kind of thinking 'man. I'm not entirely sure i'm comfortable with that...'

Lord_Viper_69
2015-03-03, 05:58 PM
The group wishes to play as chaotic and evil murderers. It is often to release tension with life events and act in a way that is not "allowed" in normal society. They are venting or acting as immature teenagers (age does not matter).

Either way, if you are not enjoying the game, leave. Do not compromise what you enjoy playing and/or roleplaying.

No game is better than a bad game.

Lord_Viper_69
2015-03-03, 06:02 PM
One of my players wanted to have his 9 year old son join us at the table... As a gaming dad I share the sentiment that getting my son into gaming would be one of the most wonderful possibilities I can think of... The only trepidation would be 'is he up to the task'...

He's been raised on a steady diet of Assassin's Creed up to this point so he's fitting in nicely with this band of murderhobos so far. In fact he's managed to show them up a few times recently in the stone cold killer department which even his dad is kind of thinking 'man. I'm not entirely sure i'm comfortable with that...'

Children in gaming can be a very interesting and creative task; they tend to bring imaginative actions, ones most logical and adult minds do not. It can be a great boon. The environment they are in and the group tend to decide their playstyle and that style is often how they play for years.

Alternately, children raised on violence/violent games and shown that killing and death are normal and acceptable, at some level, is a worry for me and the future. A level of respect for humanity should be introduced and maintained.

The human brain is mostly formed by age 7 and nearly all hard "connections" or associations for children are formed by age 7 or 8; e.g. how they tend to think, respond and act given their examples to that point.

goto124
2015-03-03, 08:13 PM
Question to the OP: Why are you playing a character who clashes so badly with the other party members? OP should find another group, or use another character more in-line with the rest.

Kid Jake
2015-03-03, 08:47 PM
Question to the OP: Why are you playing a character who clashes so badly with the other party members? OP should find another group, or use another character more in-line with the rest.

It doesn't look so much like the OP's character is disruptive so much as just went into the game with different expectations. It's more than a little silly for a DM to say "No evil alignments." and then run a party of serial killers just because they all put CN on their character sheets.

Mando Knight
2015-03-03, 09:57 PM
Frankly, the GM doesn't know what Evil means, if idiots can rampage about a town and still be "neutral."

Leave the game.

Valameer
2015-03-03, 10:11 PM
I'm surprised that the GM said "No evil alignments" and yet is somehow okay with the actions of the party. It seems to me he should either not be very happy about it (and should maybe try to steer the game back towards a heroic adventure), or else he is a hypocrite (and should have just said evil is okay).

The only advice I can offer is "No gaming is better than bad gaming." Maybe drop out of this game and offer to play a different game on the side (in a new time slot) with the players you get along with.

veti
2015-03-03, 10:25 PM
The thing is, none of this would have happened if I was not being a stick in the mud about everybody having fun.

You're a paladin. "Being a stick in the mud" is kinda your job description, and they all knew that when they introduced these characters. You're not only entitled, you're actually obligated to do something about it. And:


Since everybody else is totally okay with this, I am the odd man out and it is wrong to go against the party. It is a group game, and I should be a team player, so my options are.

1. Stop caring. Just go back to healing and fighting and turn a blind eye. I won't really be playing my character at all, basically I will just be a healbot who smites evil things on occasion. Since the DM basically told me I can't fall under any of the normal rules I can just take a passive stance.

2. Fall. If you cant beat em, join em. The DM said no evil alignments, but he is fine with evil actions.

3. Die/leave/suicide/NPC. Basically something to get a new character that fits better with the party.

4. Leave the game. The group and I disagree, but it is my problem not theirs. I don't fit in, and that is OK. I have played at least one campaign with each of the vet players before so I don't want to lose those friends, and other than the last few weeks I have really enjoyed this campaign(its going on a year or so).

... by "something", I don't mean any of this passive-aggressive BS.

(1) and (2) are basically the same option, and it's worth considering, but only if you actively think it would be fun to play that character. Don't let these two bozos steamroll you into it.

(3) is probably the best option you've listed here, but "die" or "suicide" would be pointless and out of character. The correct version of this course is "leave/NPC", which means your paladin recognises he's outmatched, and sets off to recruit the backup he needs to bring these recreants to justice. Then he, and his new backup, should show up in a couple of sessions' time, and could well become the party's recurring arch-nemesis...

(4) - isn't actually a replacement for the other options - at least one of those will still have to happen anyway.

The assumption I really want to challenge here is this "it is wrong to go against the party" nonsense. Is that what a paladin who found himself in this group would say? I strongly think not. That's the player talking, but it's simply not reconcilable with what the character would say.

And that leads us to the option you haven't listed, which IMO is correct but you seem to think would be "wrong", which is to fight back. They've initiated PvP against you, by issuing a challenge to your character's basic concept. Fight back.

As you've described it, it's not the whole party you need to challenge - just two members of it: the tiefling, and the axe maniac. The others, including the werepig, are easily redeemable: they'll go along with whoever provides the best leadership. Unfortunately, at the moment, that leadership is coming from the tiefling. That's a challenge to you personally, because a paladin is supposed to be a leader - that's why you have the highest CHA in the group.

You need to provide a strong leadership alternative (which means "hey guys, if we do it this way it'll be not just morally better, but more fun", with detailed demonstrations to back you up). Talk to your friend the werepig-dude before the session, get him on side. Win over the halfling druid and the orc. Then get on with your quest, whatever the heck that is, and give the two delinquents the option of coming along, or not - heck, they can do the NPC thing if they want.

Most likely outcome is that they do come along with you for now, in which case obviously trouble will break out again next time you have dealings with civilians. When you do encounter civilians - before the tiefling has a chance to do something nasty, tell him in so many words that if he does anything to endanger, let alone harm, a civilian, you personally will smite him into next week, evil or no evil. And the same goes for the axe dude.

Then step up to the plate and do the party face thing yourself. If they act out anyway - calmly cast your buffing spells, which you'll have prepared in anticipation of this specific fight, and kill them. Don't pussyfoot about with subdual or sacrificial damage or any such nonsense: just kill them. They've had enough chances at that point. If the other party members side against you at that point - well, so be it, you'll lose - but that too will be a solution to your current dilemma.

Rhaegar14
2015-03-03, 11:08 PM
The assumption I really want to challenge here is this "it is wrong to go against the party" nonsense. Is that what a paladin who found himself in this group would say? I strongly think not. That's the player talking, but it's simply not reconcilable with what the character would say.

And that leads us to the option you haven't listed, which IMO is correct but you seem to think would be "wrong", which is to fight back. They've initiated PvP against you, by issuing a challenge to your character's basic concept. Fight back.

As you've described it, it's not the whole party you need to challenge - just two members of it: the tiefling, and the axe maniac. The others, including the werepig, are easily redeemable: they'll go along with whoever provides the best leadership. Unfortunately, at the moment, that leadership is coming from the tiefling. That's a challenge to you personally, because a paladin is supposed to be a leader - that's why you have the highest CHA in the group.

You need to provide a strong leadership alternative (which means "hey guys, if we do it this way it'll be not just morally better, but more fun", with detailed demonstrations to back you up). Talk to your friend the werepig-dude before the session, get him on side. Win over the halfling druid and the orc. Then get on with your quest, whatever the heck that is, and give the two delinquents the option of coming along, or not - heck, they can do the NPC thing if they want.

Most likely outcome is that they do come along with you for now, in which case obviously trouble will break out again next time you have dealings with civilians. When you do encounter civilians - before the tiefling has a chance to do something nasty, tell him in so many words that if he does anything to endanger, let alone harm, a civilian, you personally will smite him into next week, evil or no evil. And the same goes for the axe dude.

Then step up to the plate and do the party face thing yourself. If they act out anyway - calmly cast your buffing spells, which you'll have prepared in anticipation of this specific fight, and kill them. Don't pussyfoot about with subdual or sacrificial damage or any such nonsense: just kill them. They've had enough chances at that point. If the other party members side against you at that point - well, so be it, you'll lose - but that too will be a solution to your current dilemma.

While I will say that this would be the best approach in a party of experienced roleplayers who are good at separating IC and OOC, experienced roleplayers generally don't bring completely thoughtless murderhobos to a game table, and he's specified that one of the problem players is a newbie. Also, the DM has stated that these characters do not detect as evil. While I will be the first to say that that's absolutely ASININE, the in-character effect of that is that the Paladin does not believe these characters are evil or irredeemable; at worst, they've made poor choices. A Paladin's reaction to someone who is less than a beacon of goodness, but not straight-up evil, is NOT to smite them into next week, it's to try and guide them onto a better path.

Frankly, a lot of this sounds like it could be bad DMing. The tiefling COULD just be trying to be intimidating and edgy without being murderous, but if the DM roleplays even the most common NPCs as refusing to be cowed by high-level adventurers, at some point the character has to back up his threats to be taken seriously (I have this problem in one of my own campaigns to an extent; my 13th-level werewolf with a sky-high Intimidate check can't Intimidate his way past three run-of-the-mill prostitutes for some unfathomable reason, let alone common city guards). Again, I would like to emphasize that that COULD be part of the problem. It doesn't really sound like it is, though.

So yeah, I would either try to roleplay redeeming these two crazies, or just have your Paladin leave the party for a character that fits in a bit better. But then, I also disagree with veti on a philosophical point; I think that party harmony definitely needs to come before strictly faithful roleplaying, and if your character is fundamentally incompatible with the party he's found himself in he probably needs to go. It's kind of the same as bringing a Chaotic Evil serial killer to a party of entirely Good characters; they just don't mesh. This is why it's generally a bad idea to make characters in a vacuum.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-03, 11:24 PM
I'm pretty sure your party is evil by text book definition. I honestly taken back that your DM disagrees.

Pretty sure murdering a whole town because they didn't like you blowing their tavern up is evil. Killing unarmed, innocents who have surrendered? That's really evil.

So you're definitely fallen. You know, "palis can't party with evils" since your party is definitely doing more harm than good.


It doesn't look so much like the OP's character is disruptive so much as just went into the game with different expectations. It's more than a little silly for a DM to say "No evil alignments." and then run a party of serial killers just because they all put CN on their character sheets. This.

Beta Centauri
2015-03-03, 11:42 PM
If talking to them is not a workable option, then all four of the options you list sound reasonable. I'm glad you're not looking for ways to punish those players.

What you might also do is advocate for the party to get away from civilized areas. If the GM opens a pit to hell and demons start pouring out and trying to kill everyone, then killing everything in sight will suddenly become the proper approach.

Gavran
2015-03-04, 12:41 AM
I'm glad the options you've listed don't include "instigate pvp" or "spite players." All in all, I think each could be the right choice: the decision here is what would be the most fun for you?

Personally, I would probably go for 3, and if you want my read of what I think *you* want most, that would be 4, but 3 may suffice. But, there is no "right answer" between the two (or the four, really) so you will simply have to think on it and figure out what you like best.

Geddy2112
2015-03-04, 12:49 AM
Wow, great replies from everybody!

Overall, this was a "nobody is on the same page as to what they want into a game" but since the tone of most of the game has been not psychotic, I figured the other players would bring in similar characters, instead of rolling up PC's that have turned the game into a bloodbath. I am 100% fine with playing a bloodbath game, I have played evil campaigns and it is tons of fun. I have played lawful campaigns, good campaigns, silly campaigns, joke characters and serious characters. All of that is fine, and the fact that parties disagree is part of the fun I find in the game. Much like in real life, we have to work with people we don't agree with and sometimes don't like. However, these players are running completely rogue murderers who they built and control knowing full well I was an established PC in the game. I like playing with the group, despite the fact that the campaign has derailed. The tone is gonna be hack and slash, and I am happy to adjust.

Most of you suggested retiring the character, and I talked to my DM and that is exactly what I will do.
@ Mr. Moron, I love the concept, and I am going to work it into a drunken orc monk I have somewhere in the list of character concepts, but that is not for this game. Not that I am against chaotic stupid or using silly players(it is actually my norm, and I was trying a bit more of a disciplined character), but I like the DM and the campaign too much(it is one of the better stories I have played in) to simply derail it or turn it into a farce. Surprise surprise, my character is one of the few if any in the party that gives an eff about the plot, and I like it enough to want to see it through. If I hated it I would have been long gone.

To those who suggest my DM has no idea about alignment, well you are 100% correct. I have talked with him about how his view on alignment is basically garbage, and if you don't want to follow it I am fine throwing it out. I am not a fan of 2 letters on a character sheet being the know all end all of how your character acts. I am reminding him, and the party, that this is now an evil campaign out of action, and that is why I am switching characters. Again, totally ok with an evil game so I am not too upset about this aspect. The game is not bad, and other than the genocide, the play is great.

At Veti- I agree, and I have before. I killed a PC for something far less early on in the campaign, and the DM pulled us both aside, chewed us both out for PvP, and we eventually compromised. A former player(more CE/Chaotic Stupid than any mentioned above) was a catfolk ranger who hated humans, and I mean he hated them. I am human(nobody told me the ranger hates humans I could have been an aasimar or any multitude of things) and he would not let me hear the end of how terrible I was. But hey, stupid biggotry is not gonna ruffle my feathers, I am a paladin and I will show him not all humans are bad. We find a merchant convoy attacked by bandits. One survivor is a very pregnant human, badly injured. I go to heal her and console her; she is disoriented so as I am trying to figure out what happened, the catfolk reminds me "this is how evil and pathetic humans are" and "your next when your stupid weak human body fails us". He nonchalantly breaks her neck, and axes her unborn child repeatedly. Greatsword drawn, smite evil and I kill him on the spot. DM told me not to ever attack a PC again, and he has to roll a new character. This player is fortunately no longer with the group. Since standing up for my actions and ghosting these two idiots is not an option, my hands are tied. Again, I do like these players and DM enough to not just say eff it and add any more tension to the party than there already is. As far as the leadership thing, the Orc, Halfling and Werepig do respect my character, and I am still the leader, but the other two are rogue agents who answer to nobody. Some people don't want to be led, or have a party face, or use rationality. That's fine, I can play in that boat with the same amount of fun.

I am not going to punish them; they did not see the light, some people just don't want it. That is fine, but lowering myself to their level is not the paladin thing to do. It takes more strength to stay your hand than to use your blade. Even though the players are inexperienced, I can still show them how playing a party who can work together is more fun than infighting, regardless of good/evil/law/chaos. I gave the DM full control of my character's fate, so he can decide what that means. Having an former PC antagonist might be a lot of fun. I am bringing in an elven sorcerer who will better fit the group, thank you all so much for your replies!

McBars
2015-03-04, 01:02 AM
I'm sorry to say this, but I had a couple of good laughs while reading the OP. Unless I'm very wrong, it doesn't sound like you have too much of an issue with what they're doing as a player, while your character abhors them & their actions.

If that's incorrect and you reall hate this situation as a player at the table, then I would say withdraw from the campaign. Under no circumstance what I recommend we signing yourself to option number one. Personally I think the best thing to do is either fall and fall spectacularly, or let this character go and bring something appropriately absurd to the table. Sometimes it's fun to play as a murder hobo. Either way the most fun option to me seems that you should embrace the direction the rest of them are going in.


The human brain is mostly formed by age 7 and nearly all hard "connections" or associations for children are formed by age 7 or 8; e.g. how they tend to think, respond and act given their examples to that point.

While you are right in a certain respect (age 0 through six or classically considered the most important years developmentally), their brains are not even close to being "formed" at this age. Most males aren't done developing frontal cortex function (executive functions, impulse control, what laypeople would call emotional maturity, etc) until their mid to late twenties.

Gavran
2015-03-04, 01:02 AM
Nice to see a happy ending. :) It's such a classic problem, but I feel like despite that the best solution rarely actually happens. Hope your new Sorcerer is lots of fun to play.

McBars
2015-03-04, 01:09 AM
I gave the DM full control of my character's fate, so he can decide what that means. Having an former PC antagonist might be a lot of fun. I am bringing in an elven sorcerer who will better fit the group, thank you all so much for your replies!

I'm glad to see you embracing the whole thing. It should be a blast no pun intended. Please please please, let us know what becomes of the paladin. I'm predicting that the rest of the party pulls him apart like a cheap mall pretzel.

Beta Centauri
2015-03-04, 11:38 AM
Excellent. This is exactly what I recommend people do while at the table: go along with what others want and find a way to have fun doing that. Not everyone is willing to do that, but I'm glad you are.

endur
2015-03-04, 02:15 PM
At Veti- I agree, and I have before. I killed a PC for something far less early on in the campaign, and the DM pulled us both aside, chewed us both out for PvP, and we eventually compromised. A former player(more CE/Chaotic Stupid than any mentioned above) was a catfolk ranger who hated humans, and I mean he hated them. I am human(nobody told me the ranger hates humans I could have been an aasimar or any multitude of things) and he would not let me hear the end of how terrible I was. But hey, stupid biggotry is not gonna ruffle my feathers, I am a paladin and I will show him not all humans are bad. We find a merchant convoy attacked by bandits. One survivor is a very pregnant human, badly injured. I go to heal her and console her; she is disoriented so as I am trying to figure out what happened, the catfolk reminds me "this is how evil and pathetic humans are" and "your next when your stupid weak human body fails us". He nonchalantly breaks her neck, and axes her unborn child repeatedly. Greatsword drawn, smite evil and I kill him on the spot. DM told me not to ever attack a PC again, and he has to roll a new character. This player is fortunately no longer with the group.

Clearly a chaotic evil GM.

BootStrapTommy
2015-03-04, 02:38 PM
Clearly a chaotic evil GM. Yeah, I get the feeling that those two hellion players aren't only issue here.

I've seen a lot of alignment arguments in the Playground. But I'd be surprised if anyone tried to defend this. It's pretty out there to claim murdering a whole village isn't evil. Or murdering a merchant over a pricing dispute.

And to chastise a player for playing a paladin? Like a paladin? Your GMs got nerve.

Kid Jake
2015-03-04, 02:55 PM
Yeah, plus the whole 'Kill a wounded mother and her unborn child because she's human' thing is so ridiculously, cartoonishly evil that even otherwise neutral characters should step in; especially if they're human themselves. It's ridiculous to travel with someone who's stated goal is 'kill you and everyone that looks like you'.

Lord_Viper_69
2015-03-04, 05:49 PM
OP-
Playing the paladin true to form is splendid. I do not condone PVP but if it completely against one character, the extremes, as murdering an unborn child and the mother because you can, and you are a paladin upholdin good and order, it seems quite reasonable.

I am glad you acted fully in character and I would hope the player learned a lesson. Many do not as their is rarely any punishment for them acting like complete asses and murdering everything they see, especially if a party member or NPC has a differing view.

Let the game world be organic and actions have consequences. Good on you.

Geddy2112
2015-03-06, 12:22 AM
So, the epilogue.
In game:
Paladin got to leave the group silently, expressing her disdain for the senseless violence to an NPC, and handing them the quest relevant items before riding off. I brought in a CN Elf Sorcerer who is male but dresses as a female in a Victorian court(crinoline dress, corset, gaudy hair and jewelry) who plays up the elven superiority complex. Lots of fun, and for once we let some random monsters run instead of killing them for no reason. The werepig did cause a rockslide to stop an enemy that killed a lot of bystanding ogres, but my character did not care a bit(A monster killed another monster, typical monsters being inferior to elves). The tiefling has a backstory that makes him hate elves so he cussed and insulted me, but I threw em back and we had a lot of fun. Were setting up to fight a formian(ant people) swarm next session, so I get to show the party how powerful arcane magic is. It was a bit weird to leave when things were veering back towards normal, but so it goes.

Out of game:
The players were generally sad to see me go, and the Tiefling player said he really liked my paladin standing against the group. The werepig player told me he was going to start shifting his alignment to lawful netural to help even things out. Tonight was a return to how 98% of our games had gone, ending without any tension or fighting in/out of character. The DM sticks by alignment and allowing what will pass and now that is 100% okay.

illyahr
2015-03-06, 10:49 AM
a CN Elf Sorcerer who is male but dresses as a female in a Victorian court(crinoline dress, corset, gaudy hair and jewelry) who plays up the elven superiority complex...
...killed a lot of bystanding ogres, but my character did not care a bit(A monster killed another monster, typical monsters being inferior to elves).

Ok, this is funny. Can I use this idea in my campaign? :smalltongue:

Geddy2112
2015-03-06, 02:41 PM
Ok, this is funny. Can I use this idea in my campaign? :smalltongue:

Absolutely, I encourage it! I based the character off a real person. Hizaki, lead guitarist of the Japanese bands Versailles and Jupiter.

http://s002.radikal.ru/i199/1112/93/d0b9da93bdfa.jpg
http://jame-world.com/_pic/gal/1540a.jpg
http://www.metal-archives.com/images/1/6/8/2/16828_artist.jpg?422

And yes, that is a guy.

Sith_Happens
2015-03-07, 02:54 AM
(Disclaimer: Did not read thread past first ~1/2 of the OP.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0d/56/f5/0d56f5d47b1a3c166a225385e43f0f44.jpg
http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Avatar+kyoshi+lived+to+be+230+years+old+_98c01039a b6b1d72c5f9ed80e0d0ba78.jpg

Twice
2015-03-12, 03:25 AM
Option: Disagree with general parties life choices and make it a life goal to show them the "right way" and path of goodness through example. Reform these ruffians! Comically facepalm in the face of chaotic dispositions. Clean up the parties messes! Become the Maid(ien)adin! Also push them to do a catholic style confession.

Altertatively, back your party decisions in the name of inquistion.

Tengu_temp
2015-03-12, 06:45 AM
I'd like to point out two things:

1. The OP already solved his problem.
2. Playing a paladin who travels with a group of murderhobos and tries to redeem them is the worst thing to do here. That makes your character look ineffectual and painfully naive. You do not reform unrepentant mass murderers with words - you do it with swords.

Here are my solutions to such situations:
1. Retire the character, then create a more suitable one. Not my choice because I hate playing with evil parties, but the OP did it and it worked for him, so kudos.
2. Leave the group. Self-explanatory. Usually I'd recommend talking first, but from my experience talking to people who play murderhobos usually goes nowhere.
3. Put a plan in motion to kill all the other PCs, then leave the group. Knee-jerk and not recommended in the long run, but feels very satisfying in the short run.



And yes, that is a guy.

That makes it even better.