Bard build for inexperienced caster (pathfinder)

[punchbeard]

Hey all.
I've just joined yet another Pathfinder campaign and have decided to play bard. So far, I'm good at playing melee characters in previous games, but not so great at casters. Because all of the other players in this new group are going for dex-hitter classes, I figured, why not do something new and go caster?
Here's what I have so far:

STR 10, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 15, WIS 13, CHA 16. These are rolls, not point builds.
Halfling. The default racial traits seem okay.
CMB is -1, so melee is basically out of the question.
Items include a shortbow, AC+1 light armor, various arrows, lights, potions, and miscellaneous junk.
8 skill points to spend. I've got bluff, diplomacy, perception, sleight of hand (because trained only), and perform comedy, leaving 3 to spend. Supposedly Use Magic Device is useful.
8 skills points per level seems like enough, so I'd use my favored class bonus to add +1 HP.
Cantrips include Prestidigitation and Detect magic. I haven't picked the other 2 cantrips or 2 level-1 spells.

Other than that, I have no clue what to do. I've looked at some optimization guides, but they seem focused on dealing damage, whereas I'd rather be a support character with buffs, debuffs, and strategic spells. I've never multiclassed before, and I'm unsure how useful that would be for a bard. So, I leave my fate in your hands. Feats? Skills? Spells?

[Flickerdart]

Part of a Bard's strength is his ability to switch roles on the fly. If you're interested in a specific role, it may not be the class for you. I know 3.5 has a lot of PrCs that help bards re-specialize into a specific role, but I'm not familiar enough with PF to replicate the results.

[punchbeard]

Isn't that the point though? The bard as the "jack of all trades", not specialized in any specific role, other than charisma and skills?
Outside of combat, I'd specialize in the charisma/intelligence skills. The other players can take care of the physical skills. Likewise, in combat, I'll likely let the other players worry about dealing damage efficiently, so I don't need to be a spell-centric arcane cannon. My overall goal is to assist the party in some general way, beyond the +1 to things from bardic performance, while maintaining survivability. This could mean buffing, debuffing, lockdowns(possibly?), or battlefield control.

Also, I hear that 3.5 bard and pathfinder bard are very different, so I'm primarily looking for advice from people who have played as or played with pathfinder bards.

[Spore]

Cantrips:
Light is always on you, other than torches who aren't always there. You lack even low-light vision which is bad.
Flare is a terrible spell but it might fill some "dead" turns for you. Skip if you want other cantrips.
Summon Instrument is very useful since it frees up weight, especially good for a small character such as you. If you do not use instruments, skip.

1st level:
Grease is a fun and powerful control spell for the whole duration of your game.
Silent Image is a nice spell to plan things around (and amusing in the downtime).
Timely Inspiration saves the day! Be it a Disable Device check, the finishing blow on your baddy or the Heal check made to stabilize Little Timmy.
Saving Finale ends your bardic performance. That's bad, but what's good is that Little Timmy gets another try at saving from that nasty spider poison.

I personally would not recommend debuffing because it's usually wasted ressources (failing saves, there being less targets than for buffs, debuffed targets killed off before the end of the battle) unless you only fight versus one big baddie (who usually makes all your saves anyway). I would go for buffing, supporting and the Finale and Inspiration series of support spells (along with Cat's Grace and spot healing with Cure Light Wounds).

[VexingFool]

Are those stats pre or post racial modifiers?

If allowed you might consider a Kitsune instead of Halfling. They have the same stat bonuses but the extra +1 DC for charms is nice for a bard. A one level dip into fey-bloodline sorcerer could boost the save DC by another 2.

Don't put a skill point into Bluff. At second level you get Versatile Performance and can use your Perform: Comedy for Bluff and Intimidate. I would put some skills into Knowledges that aren't covered by your party members starting with Arcana, Nature and Religion. UMD can be useful if your party is light on magic users, it will allow you to use wand or scrolls that are not on your spell list.

Lingering Performance feat can be useful at low levels because you have a small amount of Bardic performance rounds, it could also give you a few rounds to restart your performance if you used the saving finale spell. Take Spell focus:Enchantment if you are going for an enchanter based caster.

I like Sleep spell at low levels. You can swap it for something else at 6th level when it becomse less useful and you gain access to deep slumber.

[Kol Korran]

Hi there! The PF Bard can be quite fun, here are some suggestions:
- Versatile performance: At 2nd level, 6th level and so on you can use one of your perform skill instead of other skills. (Check for the specific ability). This hasa few effects: First, it's bsically 3 skills for the price of one (Perform+2 others), secondly- you use the perform total modifier, which means you use the charisma bonus for it. (Useful for skills that use other abilities, like sense motive using wisdom) You need to plan ahead though.

As a bard, you need LOTS of skills. (I also suggest putting the favored class bonus into that. You got decent constitution for a bard): The 4 social skills (Diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and intimidation. Though you can do without intimidation). The "roguish skills" (Acrobatics, stealth, perception, disguise, slight of hand. You can do without the later 2, but they increase you options), the knowledge skills (All, at lest 1 point for the Class skill bonus), and last but not least- Perform.
Use magic device is great for a bard, who relies on versatility.

Usually you can't get all, and as you level up, you shore up on some skills. But the Versatile performance can help you. I usually pln for 2nd level and 6th level, as you can't really rely on later levels. I like to choose for 2nd level a perform skill that will give me some skills I don't usually use, and for 6th level something that can be useful, but that I can go whole 5 levels without.

Before getting to actual recommendations, one more thing about performance: Most like to pick things that don't require instruments, to save on weight and for any "Got caught! No equipment!" kind of situations. However, you also miss on magic items that use those perform skills. At least soem magic items depend on your skill level in the performance, so it's good to keep it up. That said, magical musical instruments are far and rare.

For 2nd level I like to pick Sing or Oratory. These net you bluff/ diplomacy and the ever important Sense motive (with your Cha modifier!) Both are also quite easy to roleply.

For 6th I like Percussion (Quite a few magical drums, and the skills are neat) or Dance. (Flying becomes real possibility at those levels) The problem with dance is that you'll need to go without acrobatics for 5 levels, and that's a pain...

- Spells: From 1st level, I suggest 1 battle spell (Sleep or Grease will do nicely. I prefer grease as it can be used for other stuff as well, and effective even later. It is slightly more complicated though) and one Utility, with my preference is to Silent Image. While most spells do something very clear and direct, this spells enables room for creativity, ingenuity, and doing cool stuff. Be sure you and your DM know how illusions work though. I think this is a very versatile and useful spell, even later on.

For cantrips: Prestidigitation really depends on what the DM allows to do with it, in cn be for flavor, and possibly useful for highly creative minds and lenient DM. I prefer the spells Daze (Neutralize a 4 HD monster? Spammable? Yes please!), Read magic (for those scrolls you find) and ghost sound (It's similar to silent image in that regard- a useful spell for creative minds).

Hope this helps!

[punchbeard]

Okay, weird update. Evidently there are only two other players in the campaign. Do you still think bard will be useful or should I go full caster?

[Flickerdart]

That depends on who the others are - if they're still going for damage-dealing types then it will be useful to have a bard's skills to complement their efforts.

[Spore]

Okay, weird update. Evidently there are only two other players in the campaign. Do you still think bard will be useful or should I go full caster?

Play what your heart desires then. Less players means more time for the DM to adjust the CRs and DCs to each individual player. Personally I feel that 2 players is one too little for a bard to really be effective. You loose 50% effect on bardic performance so to speak.

This is the group size where a summoner shines (or a master summoner can make others shine). A master summoner decides for his eidolon to be a decent rogue, he himself does the talking and his summons are basically support and tanks.

[punchbeard]

That depends on who the others are - if they're still going for damage-dealing types then it will be useful to have a bard's skills to complement their efforts.

The other two players are a bow ranger and a dagger rogue. There's a good chance we won't get a fourth player. The problem here is that I can't go melee, and sticking with the bow is okay but now 2/3 of the party is ranged.


Play what your heart desires then. Less players means more time for the DM to adjust the CRs and DCs to each individual player. Personally I feel that 2 players is one too little for a bard to really be effective. You loose 50% effect on bardic performance so to speak.

Alright, then let's restructure the problem. How does one play as a bard in a 3-person group?

[Flickerdart]

The other two players are a bow ranger and a dagger rogue. There's a good chance we won't get a fourth player. The problem here is that I can't go melee, and sticking with the bow is okay but now 2/3 of the party is ranged.
Ah, so you're really set for skills.

Actually, this is pretty fantastic - your entire party is stealth-capable, meaning that "sneak in quiet-like and bump off the big boss without anyone noticing" is now a tactic you can actually use. Being able to decide when encounters happen and how you're positioned makes a dedicated front line a lot less important. The only thing is that the rogue will like a flanking buddy...do rangers still have animal companions in PF?

[Spore]

Be prepared for this party to be 90% preparation and 10% execution of said tactics. Always have an escape plan, you shoudl generally improve your alpha strike capability. While my idea is risky, you could get good resulty by using the Street Performer. You both learn Drow sign language and then you distract a target while running around telling jokes so the Rogue counts as invisible regarding your target.

Sadly you loose bardic knowledge which is very powerful but not the end.