Creative ways to penalize a Druid who won't play as a druid

[redzimmer]

I DM a campaign where I foolishly allowed a player to run as a druid who seems more intent on getting the 'pluses' and bonuses of a druid without adhering to the any tenets of being a druid, i.e. defending nature, seeking balance.

What are some creative ways to depower a druid who acts more like a heal-fighter who summons buffaloes?

[Ephemeral_Being]

Make them fall?


Ex-Druids

A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201).

Seems pretty straight-forward to me...

[redzimmer]

I know, but "Bam! No spells!" just is not creative enough, nor am I sadly.

[Karl Aegis]

You could point out the vast majority of classes can't model the character concept as well as a druid can in a core-only game. Then you can point out throwing apple cores into the woods when you're finished with them is usually enough to qualify as "revering nature".

[Baroknik]

Like most issues that have to deal with mismatched expectations -- sit down with him or her and have a simple, mature conversation about what you see as a problem.

At least, that's my suggestion.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you actually look through a list of good fantasy stories I am sure you will be able to come up with a couple of rebellious, reluctant hero types who were given some charge or responsibility that they did not want. You can use some of the ideas from these to 'strong-arm' the character without needing to strong-arm the player as well. For instance, Spider Man suffered the loss of Uncle Ben when he did not take his power seriously. Choices and actions have consequences. Find ways to make the character's decisions come back to haunt him later, in ways that he can clearly see lead back to his choices.

Another method is to introduce a powerful spirit of nature that directly puts pressure on him to conform. I was going to use the Angel Manny in the Constantine tv show as an example, but the season finale may have put a twist in that relationship that makes it invalid here.

[icefractal]

I think we need to know what he's doing that's un-Druidic. Results are going to vary by what the action actually is.

[Deophaun]

I DM a campaign where I foolishly awesomely allowed a player to run as a druid who seems more intent on getting the 'pluses' and bonuses of a druid without adhering to the any tenets of being a druid, i.e. defending nature, seeking balance.
Fixed that for you. 3.5 Druid fluff is terrible even and counter historical. Players who ignore it deserve cookies.

[Maglubiyet]

His animal companion goes on strike?

Or he's plagued by nightmares of the woodland decaying around him and the faerie queen tells him he must stop it before it's too late. When he awakens his powers are gone. He must go on a quest to save the forest in order to regain his abilities.

[eggynack]

Class is a metagame construct, and unlike something like the paladin, the druid class places only limited constraints on how a character acts. As long as he's not setting animals aflame for fun, I don't see much reason for penalties. On the other hand, there are two issues that could plausibly demand action on your part. If he's just not playing a character at all, druid or otherwise, then you should talk to him about making the druid more of an actual being. If he's just overpowering things, which is incredibly possible with a druid, then you may want to, again, talk to him, and if you feel like an outside constraint is necessary, maybe work with him to pick a power lowering ACF, like shapeshift or druidic avenger, that suits him.

[Urpriest]

If he does something out of character, ask why, and keep pursuing the conversation until you get a satisfactory in-character answer. That tends to penalize anybody who's ignoring their character concept.

On the other hand, if he has a good answer, then maybe you're just envisioning the character in a different way than he is.

[goto124]

Sounds like making a paladin Fall because the player didn't RP her paladin the DM's way.

Handle it OOC. Don't use game mechanics to punish RP. The very idea of punishment is a bad one already.

Talk to the player. What sort of character is the player going for? What is his character concept anyway? What exactly did he do? Does this character concept clash badly with your setting, perhaps? Could he refluff his character such that he has Druid abilities, but his character isn't a druid RP-wise?

What are Druids in your setting? Do they have to follow a strict code, cleric- or paladin-style?

I'll repeat. Do NOT think of 'penalizing' players. That breeds a very toxic DM vs Players mentality, not a fun challenging game.

You shouldn't be dictating other people's RP anyway. If a player is bad at RP, or doesn't RP, but is cooperative and doesn't cause trouble for the group either, why 'penalize' him? The lack of RP is her loss. Let her enjoy the game, since she doesn't disrupt anyone else's fun either.

Now, if the player you're talking about is reducing the party's fun, that is a problem. But it's a seperate problem, and you do need to be more specific about what he'd done.

[jaydubs]

Listen to goto. Seriously. Treating players as subjects to be disciplined, rather than other mature people you're playing a game with, is one of the fastest ways to alienate them.

If you need support for that statement, just go read through one of the "worst DM ever" threads that's always floating around the forums. I guarantee you'll see numerous examples out there that basically boil down to:

"I wasn't playing the class the way the DM thought it was supposed to be played. So instead of talking to me about it, he stamped all over my character concept in an effort to 'teach me a lesson.'"

[endur]

I DM a campaign where I foolishly allowed a player to run as a druid who seems more intent on getting the 'pluses' and bonuses of a druid without adhering to the any tenets of being a druid, i.e. defending nature, seeking balance.

What are some creative ways to depower a druid who acts more like a heal-fighter who summons buffaloes?

Druids belong to a druidic order. Here is an example of discipline within the Druidic Order.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397325-3-5-Liberation-of-Geoff-IC&p=18909102#post18909102

[Sacrieur]

What do you mean not playing as a druid?

Do you mean not playing a druid like you think they should? Or do you mean they're burning down trees and stuff?



Listen to goto. Seriously. Treating players as subjects to be disciplined, rather than other mature people you're playing a game with, is one of the fastest ways to alienate them.

If you need support for that statement, just go read through one of the "worst DM ever" threads that's always floating around the forums. I guarantee you'll see numerous examples out there that basically boil down to:

"I wasn't playing the class the way the DM thought it was supposed to be played. So instead of talking to me about it, he stamped all over my character concept in an effort to 'teach me a lesson.'"

Yeah exactly, don't railroad players into what you think they should be. If they want to be a half-orc wizard who uses a rapier and thinks he's a bard, so what?

[Shining Wrath]

Are the other players role-playing to the hilt while this player has a sheet with numbers on it?

Talk to the player.

Is this player doing things that are overtly anti-nature? Have a Fey show up and explain the error of their ways. Repeatedly.

Is this player NOT doing things that you think they ought to do? Sorry, welcome to DM city, population: you. The players don't take all the bait you set before them.

[LoyalPaladin]

You could have it be a slow thing? The more the character disrespects his class's nature (haha), the more powers they lose? At first the buffaloes come to his aide but just watch him as soon as they get to the field of battle. Then they stop coming, period. Things like that. Losing daily uses of wildshape would hurt the worst probably.

But, I agree you should talk it out before taking any action.

[Tvtyrant]

If push comes to shove have his/a circle on his butt. 1d4 druids jumping out of a potted plant.

[Feint's End]

I think we need to know what he's doing that's un-Druidic. Results are going to vary by what the action actually is.

Second that ... actually having some examples of what he is doing would enable us to get a better picture of what he is doing.

Otherwise supporting what goto said.

[HyperDunkBarkly]

if he doesn't want the responsibility of being a druid, he shouldn't play it.

it's a class with a certain degree of specified fluff, you either innovate within the mold or don't play it. a druid in my game RP'd himself more like a special agent druid, got a mission from an NPC and gathered together a field team(the party) to do it.

D&D is a freaking ROLEPLAYING GAME. RP or don't bother showing up. I don't see how people could not have the expectation to RP when signing up for such a thing. it's the lion's share of the game's image.

[Deophaun]

D&D is a freaking ROLEPLAYING GAME. RP or don't bother showing up. I don't see how people could not have the expectation to RP when signing up for such a thing. it's the lion's share of the game's image.
If the game's designers want to RP a character in my game, they are welcome at my table. They shouldn't try to RP the characters of my other players. If I have a player that wishes to turn the forces of nature against itself in the service of civilization, they're welcome to it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If I have a player that wishes to turn the forces of nature against itself in the service of civilization, they're welcome to it.

1) There is an ex-druid section (which is annoyingly vague), so this is not like being the world's wackiest rogue/wizard/bard/shadowcaster, the worst of which states you cannot be lawful (easily fulfilled).
2) I could justify that while keeping within the ex-druid section. Druid is one of the few core classes the really demands RP and if he is refusing to RP at all that is a problem; I would like some examples from the OP about what this guy is doing that is not "druidy."

[Deophaun]

1) There is an ex-druid section...
Which the designers were wrong to include. Which was my point.

If they want to state how the druid class is to be roleplayed, then they may sit at my table. The fact that they used the term "druid" when they really meant "magic hippie" is even worse.

[Raven777]

D&D is a freaking ROLEPLAYING GAME. RP or don't bother showing up. I don't see how people could not have the expectation to RP when signing up for such a thing. it's the lion's share of the game's image.

I feel you disregard a large part of both player styles and game content. You seem to presume system mastery, character building and combat encounters, which make up a sizable portion of the books, are not fun to master for their own sake, nor do they attract players on their own. I wish you would review your outlook and adopt a more open stance.

[Ravens_cry]

Like most issues that have to deal with mismatched expectations -- sit down with him or her and have a simple, mature conversation about what you see as a problem.

At least, that's my suggestion.
Are you insane?! What person would suggest such a rational, thoughtful and mature thing?! You are bad, and you should feel bad. </sarcasm>
***
Actually, it not a half bad idea.

[HyperDunkBarkly]

I feel you disregard a large part of both player styles and game content. You seem to presume system mastery, character building and combat encounters, which make up a sizable portion of the books, are not fun to master for their own sake, nor do they attract players on their own. I wish you would review your outlook and adopt a more open stance.
I'm very aware of my outlook and I never had any plans to have an open one to begin with. I openly condemn halfheartedness.

a person should know what they're getting into before they take their first step. D&D and similar tabletop games carry a heavy roleplaying culture. if people aren't prepared to go all the way, I really have no sympathy for them. it's like going to a LARP and not getting into character, the hell did you expect?

the druid is a flavorful, RP-centric class. it's not just some empty pile of stats you take because it's powerful. system mastery IS fun. but why play half a game? the only reason mechanics make up such a significant portion of the books is that everything else is either fluff or player-generated content.

[TheIronGolem]

I'm very aware of my outlook and I never had any plans to have an open one to begin with. I openly condemn halfheartedness.

a person should know what they're getting into before they take their first step. D&D and similar tabletop games carry a heavy roleplaying culture. if people aren't prepared to go all the way, I really have no sympathy for them. it's like going to a LARP and not getting into character, the hell did you expect?

the druid is a flavorful, RP-centric class. it's not just some empty pile of stats you take because it's powerful. system mastery IS fun. but why play half a game? the only reason mechanics make up such a significant portion of the books is that everything else is either fluff or player-generated content.
First, there's no call to assume that anybody isn't roleplaying here. The OP is complaining that his player isn't playing a druid the way he thinks a druid "should" be played. That doesn't translate to not roleplaying at all.

Second, even if the player in question isn't RP'ing much and is only interested in a beer-and-pretzels combat game (an assumption we've seen no evidence to support), that doesn't mean he's being "halfhearted". Lots of players do in fact wholeheartedly enjoy such games, and it doesn't mean they're Doing It WrongTM.

[squiggit]

The hell is an "RP-centric" class and what's the difference between it and every other class?

[atemu1234]

Like most issues that have to deal with mismatched expectations -- sit down with him or her and have a simple, mature conversation about what you see as a problem.

At least, that's my suggestion.

Being reasonable in a tabletop game! What nonsense!

Yes, you should talk to them. No, you shouldn't penalize them out of the blue.

[Zweisteine]

I agree that penalizing the player is a bad idea.

Unless he is actively harming nature or avoiding confronting threats to nature, don't penalize him.

If you want the druid character to defend nature, make the adventure involve a cult out to burn the world's forests to the ground and usher in an era of fire (though that't sort of the most generic anti-forest cult ever). If his enemies attack nature, he will defend nature.

Don't penalize a druid for adventuring, unless the adventures break the druid's vows. Remember, the vow is to revere nature, not to protect it, though that is the standard role. When an adventuring druid retires, then they settle down into nature and serve to guard the forests and train the next generation to follow them.

But if the druid accepts and sets out on a mission to hunt and kill a Dryad who has been attacking lumberers, have him fall. Do not cut corners. Sure, he might make it halfway through the forest, but if the lumberers he is escorting are attacked by a dryad, he has one "good" option: try to calm the dryad and negotiate. But if he fights it with any intent besides to incapacitate and later negotiate, he should fall.

For maximum dramatic effect, don't tell him he's Fallen if he Falls during a battle. His companion will keep fighting because it is already fighting, and its instinct is to continue (unless it's severely injured). But the next time he goes to change shape or cast a spell... As he reaches for his reservoirs of magic, he feels a horrible emptiness inside, as if the warmth of the sun had disappeared from his mind. Try as he might, he can not feel his connection to the world around him.

I'd recommend letting him keep his prepared spells, though. Just don't let him prepare more. The logic is that he already has the energy for those spells stored, so he can cast them. But then you lose the dramatic effect because his familiar up and leaves right away. I still recommend this, for balance purposes. Maybe make him feel the emptiness as the spell leaves him, as if the space he had stored the spell in is not just empty, but gone. Still don't tell him he's Fallen, though. And once he figures out and asks, just silently nod once.

EDIT:

The hell is an "RP-centric" class and what's the difference between it and every other class?
Well, Paladins have all those silly requirements, like never committing even one evil act...

[Raven777]

I'm very aware of my outlook and I never had any plans to have an open one to begin with. I openly condemn halfheartedness.

a person should know what they're getting into before they take their first step. D&D and similar tabletop games carry a heavy roleplaying culture. if people aren't prepared to go all the way, I really have no sympathy for them. it's like going to a LARP and not getting into character, the hell did you expect?

the druid is a flavorful, RP-centric class. it's not just some empty pile of stats you take because it's powerful. system mastery IS fun. but why play half a game? the only reason mechanics make up such a significant portion of the books is that everything else is either fluff or player-generated content.

I respectfully disagree. Your statements makes it sound like you believe there is a correct way to enjoy D&D. I believe you should not presume to tell others how to enjoy their toys. Furthermore, I do not hold true, nor do I assume anyone does, that the Druid or any other class is "some empty pile of stats". I respect that classes have baggage in a setting's lore that should be respected and, ideally, built upon. But it certainly is not "RP-centric". Nothing is, because RP is not the central point of D&D. Rather, along rules and battle mats, it is part of an inclusive whole. I will not be debated out of that position.

Now that this is settled... The above matter should highlight that a disagreement over character actions such as this thread's is probably rooted in differing player expectations. I will join the crowd in suggesting a talk, while insisting that being soft on roleplay is not necessarily being in the wrong. Maybe this particular player's fun - fun being the point of gathering to play D&D in the first place, in my humble opinion - lies in other parts of the game, and if his behavior is not disruptive to the other players' enjoyment, there is little need to crack down on it.

[goto124]

Before you do anything, PLEASE TALK TO THE PLAYER. It's very important. Do not let the PC fall without a long discussion with him first, let alone doing it secretly. What? Has anyone every suggested a Paladin fall secretly?

I got ninja'd. So, above post is correct.

[Coidzor]

I DM a campaign where I foolishly allowed a player to run as a druid who seems more intent on getting the 'pluses' and bonuses of a druid without adhering to the any tenets of being a druid, i.e. defending nature, seeking balance.

What are some creative ways to depower a druid who acts more like a heal-fighter who summons buffaloes?

You must construct additional context.

What is he doing?

What do you think he should be doing?

What of what he is doing do you think is not only something outside your expectations but actively anathema to Druids?

What in particular makes you want to punish him, exactly?

[goto124]

What happened during character generation? Did you tell the player that playing a Druid means following a set of actions and actually having to be whatever you think is druid-like? Had he agreed to your paladin-style restrictions? Did you and he discuss and set out a Code of Druids that both of you agree on? Or did you just assume he would stick with your idea of how a druid should act?

[Crake]

still waiting on the OP to give more context before I offer advice, we aren't even getting half the story here

[Sacrieur]

Before you do anything, PLEASE TALK TO THE PLAYER. It's very important. Do not let the PC fall without a long discussion with him first, let alone doing it secretly. What? Has anyone every suggested a Paladin fall secretly?

I got ninja'd. So, above post is correct.

I like this idea. He could be slowly twisted into covertly hampering the party until he emerges as an antipaladin.

[Lerondiel]

still waiting on the OP to give more context before I offer advice, we aren't even getting half the story here

Seconded.

Everyone's wading in on not enough info.