raging charger warblade/frenzied berserker build

[rrwoods]

CG Human

Warblade 1 - Powerful Charge, Power Attack (maneuvers: moment of perfect mind, sapphire nightmare blade, sudden leap; punishing stance)
Fighter 1 - Cleave
Barbarian 1 - Intimidating Rage, Pounce ACF
Fighter 2 - Improved Bull Rush
Warblade 2
Warblade 3 - Destructive Rage
Frenzied Berserker 1
Frenzied Berserker 2
Frenzied Berserker 3 - Shock Trooper
Frenzied Berserker 4
Frenzied Berserker 5
Frenzied Berserker 6 - Leap Attack
... (I don't know that the campaign will even get this far)

I haven't built a charger/pouncer before. Frenzied berserker looks hella fun, so I'd like to use that if possible (fun > power here). Within the constraint of building a sweet pouncer using frenzied berserker, is there anything here you guys would change? Thanks! :-) No source limitations, really, but particularly high-power stuff would need to be run by the DM first.

[Rebel7284]

optimize your will save or fun will turn into killing the whole party... and while that may be fun for you, building new characters may not be fun for them.

[rrwoods]

optimize your will save or fun will turn into killing the whole party... and while that may be fun for you, building new characters may not be fun for them.

Heh, yeah. Do you think Moment of Perfect Mind is enough? My hope is that I can just refresh that every time I need to use it, but I don't know how well that will work in practice.

[Rebel7284]

Maybe! Steadfast Determination would be a good backup, but sadly that has prereqs. :-\

[Red Fel]

Heh, yeah. Do you think Moment of Perfect Mind is enough? My hope is that I can just refresh that every time I need to use it, but I don't know how well that will work in practice.

I don't think it will work. Moment of Perfect Mind allows you to make a Concentration check in place of a Will save. Problem is, a Frenzied Berserker in Frenzy cannot use Concentration. Can't make the check. I think that would prevent you from using the maneuver.

That also raises the question of whether maneuvers can be used during Frenzy (or Rage, for that matter).

[Necroticplague]

I don't think it will work. Moment of Perfect Mind allows you to make a Concentration check in place of a Will save. Problem is, a Frenzied Berserker in Frenzy cannot use Concentration. Can't make the check. I think that would prevent you from using the maneuver.

Correction: they cannot use the concentration skill. Fortunately, Moment of Perfect Mind requires you to make a concentration check, not use the skill.

[rrwoods]

Hm. Interesting issue. There's always IHS, but I'd definitely need to talk to my DM about when I am and am not allowed to use it. Either way, figuring out a better way to get a decent will save is probably mandatory.

[Necroticplague]

Hm. Interesting issue. There's always IHS, but I'd definitely need to talk to my DM about when I am and am not allowed to use it. Either way, figuring out a better way to get a decent will save is probably mandatory.

I'm not sure that's allowable. Frenzied Berserker requires you to keep attacking. IHS uses up your standard action, which you could be using to attack. Thus, using IHS violates the "must attack those she perceives" part of the Frenzy.

On more helpful notes: Steadfast Detemination makes your WILL based off of your CON instead of your WIS, which can do wonders to help your save as a barbarian. Cumbrous Will gives you a pretty good chance of making the save as well (and has an interesting fluff implication where you become shaken to stop your own frenzy), while the obvious choice of Iron Will is always there. Cloak of resistance helps make the save even easier.

[rrwoods]

A lot of feats being eaten on will saves, but I think it's probably worth it:

Warblade 1 - Powerful Charge (1st), Power Attack (Human)
Fighter 1 - Cleave (Fighter)
Barbarian 1 - Intimidating Rage (3rd), Pounce (ACF)
Warblade 2
Warblade 3
Warblade 4 - Destructive Rage (6th)
Warblade 5 - Iron Will (Warblade)
Fighter 2 - Endurance (Fighter)
Frenzied Berserker 1 - Cumbrous Will (9th)

followed by Steadfast Determination (12th), and Leap Attack (15th). Unfortunate that Leap Attack comes that late, but I don't feel like the damage output is suffering all that much. Maybe one of Steadfast Determination or Cumbrous Will can go; if I had to pick I'd throw out Steadfast because its prereq is worse.

[Rebel7284]

Ask your DM if you can visit the otyugh hole magical location. Its value is 3000GP if I recall if you visit it before the game starts. Gives you Iron Will.

[Deox]

optimize your will save or fun will turn into killing the whole party... and while that may be fun for you, building new characters may not be fun for them.

Small truth, but not entirely.

FBs are stopped very easily. Calm Emotions, Grease. Mundane marbles.
For the FB, grab a weapon enchanted with the merciful property.

OP - Solid start. As was suggested earlier, Steadfast Determination will be a huge help along with spending money for the O-hole for Iron Will.

Personally, I would dump Powerful Charge in favor of going for shock trooper, and do not worry about picking up lots of multipliers (Battle Jump, Leap Attack, et al.). Are flaws allowed? A couple extra feats would work wonders.

Instantaneous Rage could be used to great effect also. Since you're going so many Warblade, you could always pick up Endurance for free.

[rrwoods]

OP - Solid start. As was suggested earlier, Steadfast Determination will be a huge help along with spending money for the O-hole for Iron Will.
No Otyugh Hole; we're starting at level 1. There's a thin possibility it shows up in game but I'm not going to count on it.

[/quote]Personally, I would dump Powerful Charge in favor of going for shock trooper[/quote]
I definitely see the logic here; Powerful Charge is a single damage die that doesn't scale with level. I had originally done this build based on "THE Level One Charger" here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2813) since we are starting at 1, but I do want to replace the stuff that quickly falls in usefulness with stuff that will actually be good later on (through, say, 9 or 10). Dropping Powerful Charge as well is in line with that.


and do not worry about picking up lots of multipliers (Battle Jump, Leap Attack, et al.).
This I'm not sure I understand. Leap Attack seems like a flat +5 to damage on every attack in a pounce, how is this not one of the better things I could be doing?


Are flaws allowed? A couple extra feats would work wonders.
No flaws.


Instantaneous Rage could be used to great effect also. Since you're going so many Warblade, you could always pick up Endurance for free.
Right now, picking up Iron Will via Warblade's bonus feat and Endurance via Fighter's seems like the right call, since the Hole isn't an option.

[Twurps]

Couple of Nitpicks:
-I've never played a charger, so I might be wrong here, but I don't see the synergy between Warblade (focussed on single attacks with standard action maneuvers like Sapphire nightmare blade) and the barbarian's pounce. This is made worse by the use of Diamond mind, with its heavy use of the concentration skill. Also, as Red Fel mentioned: RAW might not forbid the use of maneuvers while in frenzy, but it does exclude anything from spellcasting to using feats, so in our games it wouldn't fly.

-Sudden Leap requires a Tiger claw maneuver, which you don't seem to have. Easily fixed as I think you have some unassigned maneuvers left.

[rrwoods]

I've never played a charger either! So any advice is welcome. The intent of warblade/barbarian is to shore up weaknesses mostly; one shot maneuvers and counters when charging isn't doing the job. Given that the pounce ability only costs one class level I have plenty of those to spare for other things.

Sudden leap requiring another Tiger maneuver I'm embarrassed I didn't notice. It's in that original charger build I started with and I kind of assumed it worked without questioning it. I'll have to shore that up of course.

[Sacrieur]

Correction: they cannot use the concentration skill. Fortunately, Moment of Perfect Mind requires you to make a concentration check, not use the skill.

That's a pretty big munchkin stretch. Even if you were right, and I'm not saying you are, it still forbids you from using abilities which require "patience or concentration". Pretty sure the mentions of "focus" in Moment of Perfect Clarity is a tell that it's covered under this tacked on bit. To make it all the more clear, the definition (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/focus) of focus used in this context is "to concentrate". You would need to successfully argue that "abilities" just means ability scores.

In any case, a DM would have to be completely insane to allow this. I suppose he should then inform you that because your intelligence and wisdom scores require you to use patience or concentration, you are unable to use your intelligence or wisdom, granting you an effective score of zero in each of these categories. Congratulations, the moment you enter frenzy you just become unconscious!

[rrwoods]

That's a pretty big munchkin stretch. Even if you were right, and I'm not saying you are, it still forbids you from using abilities which require "patience or concentration". Pretty sure the mentions of "focus" in Moment of Perfect Clarity is a tell that it's covered under this tacked on bit. To make it all the more clear, the definition of focus used in this context is "to concentrate".

In any case, a DM would have to be completely insane to allow this.

I tend to agree, and so does my DM.

I may swap out Moment for another Tiger maneuver to satisfy Sudden Leap's requirements, and given that it's possible maneuvers won't be usable at all during rage/frenzy, I may choose a different entry path. I do think I want to keep Punishing Stance and Sudden Leap though, and I think a level of warblade is the cheapest way to obtain those. 12 hp at level 1 doesn't hurt either.

[Vhaidara]

Point out to your GM that, if nothing else, Tiger Claw should be usable in Rage. It's literally fighting like a wild animal. If that can't be done in a rage, then wat?

[Deox]

This I'm not sure I understand. Leap Attack seems like a flat +5 to damage on every attack in a pounce, how is this not one of the better things I could be doing?

Depending on who you ask, Leap Attack and FB can do weird things. Easier to steer clear.

[Deox]

Just as a thought, have you looked into the Revenant Blade PrC?

[Andezzar]

Correction: they cannot use the concentration skill. Fortunately, Moment of Perfect Mind requires you to make a concentration check, not use the skill.How are you not using the concentration skill when you roll a concentration check?

What's so great about frenzied berserker? Sure you do a bit more damage than without it, but do you really need imore damage? With pounce, leap attack and shock trooper you most likely deal enough damage to one-shot level appropriate enemies anyways.

I play a Barbarian2/Fighter 2/Warblade 6 and have not yet found an opponent that I could not one-shot on a charge. What you want to do is get Leap attack and shock trooper ASAP (level 6 should be a fighter level), and possibly some items that increase your damage and/or let you deal damage against foes normally resistant/immune to it. So once you have sufficient damage you can focus on other things mainly getting to charge in more situations (flight with sufficient maneuverability for example, the bounding assault maneuver is also great), and stuff to do when you can't charge. The Warblade levels can help with both.

@Deox: Revenant Blade requires TWF with an exotic weapon. The character does none of the required feats. If you mean Eternal Blade, that requires pointy ears.
What weird things do you think happen when you combine FB with leap attack? Both increase the damage on a charge. Just agree with your DM how high the damage will be.

[Deox]

@Deox: Revenant Blade requires TWF with an exotic weapon. The character does none of the required feats. If you mean Eternal Blade, that requires pointy ears.

Revenant Blade is easy entry. I have a few entry methods, depending on the goal.
Wood Elf ->
Ranger 2 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 2 / Revenant Blade 5

or

Ranger 2 / Warblade 3 / Revenant Blade 5

or

Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Barbarian 1 / Revenant Blade 5

Add Eternal Blade, Kensai, Warblade, Frenzied Berserker to taste.


Both increase the damage on a charge. Just agree with your DM how high the damage will be.

My thoughts exactly. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallwink.gif

[Andezzar]

I never said it wasn't easy, just that the parameters the OP set (CG human, none of the required feats) do not allow qualification easily.

[Necroticplague]

How are you not using the concentration skill when you roll a concentration check?

Because the Concentration skill itself is never mentioned in the maneuver description, just the check for concentration. Just because skill use->skill check is always true, does not mean skill check->skill use is always true.

[Andezzar]

The glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_skillcheck&alpha=S) seems to disagree.

[kaffalidjmah]

from unearthed arcana there is a rage variant, the wirlhing frenzy. it give you one more attack, cumulable with frenzy bonus attack, but impose a -2 to all attack in the round (like rapid shot with bow). mor important, is cumulable also with the haste spell XD

for the will save, i suggest to go with the half orc and take the channeled rage feat, from race of destiny. you can expend one rage to gain a bonus on will save equal of your strenght bonus. i personally added one thing: you can also expend a frenzy attempt, but not an instill frenzy.

EDIT: i re-read the frenzy for the berserker...the additional attack from frenzy is not cumulative with the one from the wirhling frenzy rage variant. BUT, if you go in frenzy and wirlhing frenzy all together you can forego the frenzy bonus attack and add haste to the mix, with a net -1 to to hit roll and +2 attack with the highest BAB. fair trade for me.

[Necroticplague]

The glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_skillcheck&alpha=S) seems to disagree.

It only says that the check is related to using the skill, which is true (when you use a skill, you always roll a skill check (unless you take 10 or 20)). It never says that all skill checks are skill uses.

[atemu1234]

optimize your will save or fun will turn into killing the whole party... and while that may be fun for you, building new characters may not be fun for them.

Continuous item of Protection from Evil. Done. Will Save optimized.

[Vhaidara]

Continuous item of Protection from Evil. Done. Will Save optimized.

Doesn't work here. This is to prevent him from frenzying when he stubs his toe and ubercharging the party rogue.

[Andezzar]

Doesn't work here. This is to prevent him from frenzying when he stubs his toe and ubercharging the party rogue.Well the question is whether Frenzy exercises mental control over the Berserker. If it does, which could be argued due to the compulsion to attack friends when no more foes are standing, it should work.

[Lerondiel]

FBs are stopped very easily. Calm Emotions, Grease. Mundane marbles.
For the FB, grab a weapon enchanted with the merciful property.

OP - Solid start. As was suggested earlier, Steadfast Determination will be a huge help...

..Personally, I would dump Powerful Charge in favor of going for shock trooper, and do not worry about picking up lots of multipliers (Battle Jump, Leap Attack, et al.)...

Completely agree with Deox. Talk with your other players about a team approach to controlling the frenzies. You can only do it once at 7th, twice at 9th etc. It shouldnt be hard with some planning and cooperation.

- You'll learn quickly that ending the frenzy is pretty easy between the DC20 and the whole party having an opportunity to act before you turn on them (make sure you're more than 10ft from allies so you dont supreme cleave them if you drop the final enemy though).
- As a contrast, the reactive frenzy DC can easily get out of reach no matter what you do. (A 10d6 fireball or a few arrows to get into DC 40+). In those situations you desperately need to lose initiative to your casters, so plan items/spells for that to happen.

For those reasons I would spend gold on helping Will saves but not vital feats.

Racial and character feats are burnt meeting the PrCl prerequisites and Ftr2 gets you to Shock Trooper.

...by 16th level you enter combat with (-22AC) a raging, frenzied, pouncing, heedless charging, supreme power attack doing conservatively +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 : (damage per swing 2d6+89, 15-20x2)

At that level Leap Attack would add an extra +16 damage/hit and if the campaign has a long term theme against a type of enemy, a level of Ranger and the Favoured Power Attack feat would stack another +16..but personally I think if anything's swinging back at your shredded AC after that charge, you want Combat Reflexes & Robilar's Gambit to keep swinging - they cant kill you with damage.

[dysprosium]

Fighter 2 - Endurance (Fighter)

The Endurance feat is not a Fighter bonus feat.

[Andezzar]

...by 16th level you enter combat with (-22AC) a raging, frenzied, pouncing, heedless charging, supreme power attack doing conservatively +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 : (damage per swing 2d6+89, 15-20x2)

At that level Leap Attack would add an extra +16 damage/hit and if the campaign has a long term theme against a type of enemy, a level of Ranger and the Favoured Power Attack feat would stack another +16..but personally I think if anything's swinging back at your shredded AC after that charge, you want Combat Reflexes & Robilar's Gambit to keep swinging - they cant kill you with damage.The extra damage is way too low. Using a two-handed weapon does not double the extra damage from power attack but replaces the usual 1:1 exchange rate with a different one (1:2).
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

After the errata Supreme Power Attack adds +100% of the Power Attack damage to the total and Leap Attack still triples the extra damage with a two-handed weapon.

You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

So with a -16 to AC/attack the attack would deal +160 damage from Power Attack alone.
Power Attack with 2H weapon: 32
Supreme Power Attack: +32
Leap Attack: +3*32
=160
(Un)fortunately the way Leap Attack is worded this only applies to one attack regardless of the number of attacks in the charge.
You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack.
The other attacks get "only" +64 from Power Attack.

[rrwoods]

Just to be clear, the ruling for the purposes of this character is that everything that adds damage as a multiple (be it in the form "+100%" or "doubled" or "x2" or however it's worded) is subject to D&D's doubling math, and specifically Leap Attack with a 2-handed weapon turns the 1:2 exchange into a 1:3 exchange (NOT a 1:6 exchange).

Also, the ruling regarding Concentration for the purposes of this character is that I can't make Concentration checks if I can't use the Concentration skill. Whether that's correct isn't on topic for this thread. I appreciate the thought but it's not happening here.

Moving on from those: I don't think I realized FB had the downside of auto-frenzying. I might rethink entering that class at all, though to be honest I think I'm more focused on levels 1-6 than anything high enough to be in a prestige class. This has the advantage of me not needing to take Cleave or the two Rage feats. With that in mind I'll probably get Shock Trooper ASAP, then shore up the Will save (though with Shock Trooper requiring +6 BAB it'll probably end up coming after anyway), then move onto piling on more damage (again, in the levels I don't expect to get to at this point anyway).

I do feel like I'm in kind of a weird position with this build. Other than Warblade 1 for Punishing Stance and Barbarian 1 for Pounce (plus Fighter levels for bonus feats) I don't actually know what class levels I want. That feels sorta backwards :-P Most of the time I know what class levels I want and the feats are the hard part.

[Andezzar]

With those house rules you will probably need FB. Heedless Charge (the main reason for taking Shock Trooper) only works if you can reliably incapacitate your target. If it still has even 1 HP you will be in a world of hurt.