Best Saves

[mister__joshua]

All else being equal, given the choice, which saving throws is it best to be proficient in in 5th edition? We've got 6 to choose from now! I think Reflex saves seem to come up the most, but they also tend to have the least catastrophic results from failure. That said, I think it probably goes like this:

Con > Wis > Dex > Int > Str > Cha.

That's just a general feeling though. The first 3 are vastly more important than the second 3. Failing Int and Str saves can, I feel, leave you more crippled than failing a Cha save though I haven't encountered any of these yet in play.

Any thoughts or alternative viewpoints? What seems to be the most important in your game?

[CrusaderJoe]

All else being equal, given the choice, which saving throws is it best to be proficient in in 5th edition? We've got 6 to choose from now! I think Reflex saves seem to come up the most, but they also tend to have the least catastrophic results from failure. That said, I think it probably goes like this:

Con > Wis > Dex > Int > Str > Cha.

That's just a general feeling though. The first 3 are vastly more important than the second 3. Failing Int and Str saves can, I feel, leave you more crippled than failing a Cha save though I haven't encountered any of these yet in play.

Any thoughts or alternative viewpoints? What seems to be the most important in your game?

Generally, depending on build and level...

Low level
Dex > Con = Wis > Str > Cha > Int

Low HP and the high number of things that force a Dex save makes Dex high priority at low levels.


Higher level
Wis = Con > Str > Dex = Cha > Int

More HP and ways to heal makes Dex saves less important. But str saves can restrain you which means you will fail Dex saves more often.

Strength saves are a gateway save, fail them and you start failing Dex saves.

[supergoji18]

There are intelligence saving throws?

Also, the way I rate it: Con = Wis > Dex > Cha > Str > Int

There are a crap ton of things in the game that require a Con or Wis save, and they are all effects that will change an encounter from "free XP" to a TPK if they are failed.

Dex has lots of important saves, but they can all pretty much be summed up as "save for half damage."

Charisma actually has SOME saving throws (Force Cage requires one to get out IIRC, and there were a few others elsewhere).

Strength is basically just grapple and... That's it.

Int... Nope, nothing. Why even bother having an intelligence saving throw?

[Daishain]

Int... Nope, nothing. Why even bother having an intelligence saving throw?
Int saves mostly involve recognizing illusions for what they are. They just might keep you from blithely walking off a cliff, or thinking the gibbering mouther coming towards you is a trusted companion, among other things.

[supergoji18]

Int saves mostly involve recognizing illusions for what they are. They just might keep you from blithely walking off a cliff, or thinking the gibbering mouther coming towards you is a trusted companion, among other things.

I thought those were wisdom saves, but if they are Int saves then maybe it has some value. Still less than others, but some value nevertheless.

[BenTheJester]

Int saves mostly involve recognizing illusions for what they are. They just might keep you from blithely walking off a cliff, or thinking the gibbering mouther coming towards you is a trusted companion, among other things.

Unfortunately for people Proficient in the Int saves, those don't require a save, but a skill check, usually Investigation.

I think there might be 1 or 2 instances where an Intelligence save is needed. It's totally useless.

[Daishain]

Still less than others
Oh aye, to a large degree, Str, Int, and Cha saves are secondary saving throws. They didn't even exist in previous editions, and just got tossed a few items to spread things out a bit.

If you notice though, they did account for this, every class has one primary and one secondary save trained.

[dancrilis]

Int... Nope, nothing. Why even bother having an intelligence saving throw?

There are a couple of them but ... Feeblemind and Mind Flayers stand out.

[Chronos]

Feeblemind doesn't much matter, since the characters who don't have good Int saves will mostly not be particularly affected by it in the first place (at least not in the short run, but in the long run you're going to get a Break Enchantment or something for them).

And the relative importance of Wis vs. Con depends on whether you're a spellcaster or not. Spellcasters need to make a Con save any time their concentration is threatened, which is going to come up all over the place. If you're not a caster, though, then Wis is more important: Both have save-or-lose effects, but the Wis save-or-lose come online much earlier, and can sometimes mean that not just you lose, but that your party does, too.

[Myzz]

Int saves have perhaps the most catastrophic effects if you do fail...


Intelect Devourer... fail Int save and your dead!

I'd put Int last until higher levels, where mind flayers and Int devourers might be in your campaign. IF they for sure will be in your campaign, Int saves probably move up to 1 or 2 spot!

Dex is by far the most numerous I'd think... but as others noted with several class features being able to effects... But in many cases Dex saves are going to cause you to take half dmg therefore a result of something happening. When Wis saves result in negating the effect many times. This might make Wis a better save, since with Dex your saving to avoid only half the effect...

But again if you fail your Disintegrate SAve (dex), your likely dead, and only restorable by true resurection or wish!

[metaridley18]

Cha saves for resistance to possession. These aren't common and can be protected against with a simple Protection from Evil and Good, but when you need it, you really need it. Depending on the campaign I would put Cha higher than Dex (but requires some very specific circumstances).

[dancrilis]

Feeblemind doesn't much matter, since the characters who don't have good Int saves will mostly not be particularly affected by it in the first place (at least not in the short run, but in the long run you're going to get a Break Enchantment or something for them).

The Cleric and Sorcerer might disagree with you (as might some others that use spells).

Which is not to say that it likely on average isn't the least important (for now at least baring future releases) - just that claiming that it is utterly worthless is incorrect.

[JFahy]

Int... Nope, nothing. Why even bother having an intelligence saving throw?

Do wizards still have Maze?

[Strill]

There are intelligence saving throws?

They're almost exclusively from Mind-flayers and related enemies.

[dancrilis]

Do wizards still have Maze?

Yes but it is an intelligence check rather than a save.

[AvatarVecna]

So far, I've looked through all the PH spells and noted the saves they call for. Numbers are as follows:

Strength: 7
Dexterity: 51
Constitution: 35
Intelligence: 3
Wisdom: 43
Charisma: 13

The big thing I think screws over "Int-save" proficient classes in this regard is that Illusion spells are not "Intelligence saves ends", but "Intelligence (Investigation) check end". I have not yet sorted these spells based on spell level or access by class. I'm currently working my way through monster stat blocks (the results of which I'll probably post later), but it's not looking too different; here's what those numbers look like so far:

Strength: 21
Dexterity: 68
Constitution: 59
Intelligence: 0
Wisdom: 39
Charisma: 0

Now, these numbers aren't doing much to disagree with my findings on spell saving throws. On the one hand, I must admit I'm only up to the "Elves (Drow)" monster entry and that those numbers aren't taking into account the spellcasting abilities some monsters possess; on the other hand, I have a pretty solid hunch that the numbers will continue the current trend (that is, Dex/Con/Wis>Str>Int/Cha).

Ultimately, it looks to me like, even if there's some Int-based saves that are powerful "Save-or-Die/Suck" spells, the sheer volume of other saves coming up overcomes it.

[JFahy]

If you're keen to do more work...part of the picture is what you're
saving against. Dex saves are usually to reduce hit point damage;
Con saves are often about damage or incapacitation, and some
Wis saves are to resist someone telling you to crack each others'
heads open and feast on the goo inside (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4m-lNi61Rk). So the suckiness of failing
a save also affects how much we should value being good at it.

Maybe one category for damage, one for disability and perhaps
a third for 'not only are you no longer fighting for the good guys,
you're now fighting for the bad guys'?

[CrusaderJoe]

Could we count Sleep as a special type of Con Save? Or a Con targeted spell?

Very weird spell, kinda wish more spells worked like that.

[Ghost Nappa]

There is a generally inverse relationship between how often you will be required to make a save of a certain type and how sad you will be if you fail it.


DEX saves are common, but you generally won't be too upset if you fail. "Oh darn. I guess I'm taking that full 4d6 fire damage."
INT saves are rare, but you do NOT want to fail one! "Oh ****. It ate my brain and now I'm perma-dead."

[mister__joshua]

Interesting analysis Vecna, thanks for that.

I'm wondering do most of the Wis saves occur from spells/spell like effects (and thus are dis/counterspellable)? Con saves come from a wide number of things. Dex saves common from traps as well as spells etc.

[TheOOB]

Imo It's Wis > Con > Dex > Str > Cha > Int.

While dexterity saving throws are the most common, you usually only take damage upon failing, and most characters/parties have ways of dealing with damage. Con based saves tend to be fairly nasty(poison, disease, ect), but they in my experiance tend to be mostly a problem in melee, and they are usually fairly easy to prepare for.

Wisdom based saves tend to happen at a range and unpredictably, and they tend to have effects that eat your actions or even harm the rest of your party, making them harder to deal with in dangerous situations.

Charisma saves are actually some of the worst to fail, but their pretty rare.