Disengaging in melee combat?

[Thewaitingman]

I've always had problems with 3.5 RAW for various reasons, but the art of reflavouring and the endless possiblities in character creation usually solves the problems. My problem this time is a lot more "fundumental" and has to do with the combat rules. The moment two enemies are locked in combat they must stay there or sacrifice valuable actions and rounds withdrawing. In other words, disengaging from a melee combat is neither possible nor does it offer anything (unless you're going to climb a ready-to-go dragon or something). How do you emulate cinematic, deceptively long duels and encounters if you cannot disengage? I understand that a DM can always throw a falling column just between the two combatants or play a convenient earthquake at the right moment but other than that am I missing something? Is there a way around this?

[prufock]

I've always had problems with 3.5 RAW for various reasons, but the art of reflavouring and the endless possiblities in character creation usually solves the problems. My problem this time is a lot more "fundumental" and has to do with the combat rules. The moment two enemies are locked in combat they must stay there or sacrifice valuable actions and rounds withdrawing. In other words, disengaging from a melee combat is neither possible nor does it offer anything (unless you're going to climb a ready-to-go dragon or something). How do you emulate cinematic, deceptively long duels and encounters if you cannot disengage? I understand that a DM can always throw a falling column just between the two combatants or play a convenient earthquake at the right moment but other than that am I missing something? Is there a way around this?

Not sure what you're hoping for here. A way to immediately disengage from combat that takes no action that your opponent can't counter? That's... a tall order. You can get immediate actions to teleport away, if that helps.

[JohnDaBarr]

I've always had problems with 3.5 RAW for various reasons, but the art of reflavouring and the endless possiblities in character creation usually solves the problems. My problem this time is a lot more "fundumental" and has to do with the combat rules. The moment two enemies are locked in combat they must stay there or sacrifice valuable actions and rounds withdrawing. In other words, disengaging from a melee combat is neither possible nor does it offer anything (unless you're going to climb a ready-to-go dragon or something). How do you emulate cinematic, deceptively long duels and encounters if you cannot disengage? I understand that a DM can always throw a falling column just between the two combatants or play a convenient earthquake at the right moment but other than that am I missing something? Is there a way around this?

First it is possible to disengage, it is just the matter of do you what to offer the opponent the attack of opportunity, after that is only a matter of can you run longer or faster than your pursuer.
Additionally tumble offers you a easy way out, further more mundane stuff like smoke sticks can aide you in such situations and when we get to the magic part it just becomes simpler to disengage via invisibility and expeditious retreat (this highly depends on the lvl of involved parties but usually works).

Secondly spending valuable actions by staying in a fight you know you will probably lose isn't the best way to spend them.

[Urpriest]

You're not, really. D&D's combat system isn't about cinematic combat, at least not in 3.5. The system is vaguely simulationist in intent, and while that doesn't carry over to most aspects it does mean that it's about as hard to disengage from a D&D melee as it is from a real-life one. Remember, each round is only 6 seconds, so you're very unlikely to have a cinematically long combat no matter how you slice it.

If you're interested in a system with a more cinematic combat style, 4e was designed to be a lot more dynamic, with lots of shifting around and being whisked across the battlefield mid-combat. If you want to get close to that sort of thing in 3.5, ToB characters have a lot more mobility.

[unbutu]

I notice many things that make it hard to understand your idea. I could argue that they move quite fast while fighthing, that, in movies, disengaging is often done with tumble, and often provokes an attack of opportunity anyway.

Could say that many combat manoeuvers allow you to put your opponent in a bad position, enough so he won't be able to AoO you back. (Trip, bull rush)

Could point to the PF ''withdraw'' decision, wich gives you a double move + no AoO from the first square you exit.

A lot of stuff to suggest, but I feel it's not quite the thing.

So what would be a satisfactory battle for you ? Let's start from your idea, and try to make rules for it. What are the main changes needed for thoses epic battles to happen ?

Do you have examples precisely (Like, you could run a battle, and tell us '' There ! I would like to do that '' ) or just this general feel ?

[Troacctid]

Combat Expertise. Make your attack at -5 and you can back away with a +5 bonus against the opportunity attack. Or trip them and give them a penalty. Or both--might as well take -5 to hit if you're making a touch attack anyway.

Isn't there a 1st level White Raven maneuver that stops the target from taking attacks of opportunity? Pick that up with a Crown of White Ravens.

Or Tumble. Tumbling is the most obvious solution.

[Ravens_cry]

There is the Withdraw action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw). It's a full round action and, especially against opponents with reach, it tends to be of less use, but it gets you out of Dodge.

[Urpriest]

There is the Withdraw action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw). It's a full round action and, especially against opponents with reach, it tends to be of less use, but it gets you out of Dodge.

I had the impression the OP had filed that under "wastes valuable actions and turns".

[unbutu]

We are proposing ways to move in combat, while my feeling is that OP is looking for something else.

[Urpriest]

We are proposing ways to move in combat, while my feeling is that OP is looking for something else.

I think the OP is looking for incentives to move in combat. The OP wants a combat system where cinematic combat involving a lot of disengaging and re-engaging is normal and a reasonably optimal way to fight.

[Troacctid]

If you want to increase the overall mobility of melee characters, make it a standard action to full attack.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you want a reason to move, disengage and re-engage in combat, you can give all (melee) characters high sneak attack, skirmish and Iaijutsu Focus damage (as in, one point per character level, or something), and allow/improve a feint and sheath weapon action as part of a retreat action/the round after a retreat action. Pounce, too. That way, you get the 'awesome attacks after ridiculous moves' deal. It's still up to your players to turn the retreat action into something more interesting than 'I move 60 feet that way - no AoO'.

A much more mundane way to add more cinematic combat scenes, is describing the environment in a way that makes people think it's useful. High ground is in the base rules, but you can promote tumbling across low walls to get cover and whatnot.

If you want long cinematic fights, you'll have to counter the high level rocket tag game. You can do that by giving people high DR, AC, SR/saves (spells are the fastest killers) and health. If you really want the movement to be super-functional, maybe a retreat action adds +1 AC, +1/- DR and +1 temporary hp per level, as a counter to the sneak, skirmish and focus damage. More reasonably, pick either one, the defensive retreat or the damage-boosting one.

[Galen]

I've always had problems with 3.5 RAW for various reasons, but the art of reflavouring and the endless possiblities in character creation usually solves the problems. My problem this time is a lot more "fundumental" and has to do with the combat rules. The moment two enemies are locked in combat they must stay there or sacrifice valuable actions and rounds withdrawing. In other words, disengaging from a melee combat is neither possible nor does it offer anything (unless you're going to climb a ready-to-go dragon or something). How do you emulate cinematic, deceptively long duels and encounters if you cannot disengage? I understand that a DM can always throw a falling column just between the two combatants or play a convenient earthquake at the right moment but other than that am I missing something? Is there a way around this?Three words: Tome of Battle.
There's jumping over enemies, maneuvering around enemies, denying enemies use of attacks of opportunity, making better use of attacks of opportunity yourself, etc.

[urokia]

The fault might lay slightly with the players, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Disengaging in melee combat is usually used to retreat and regroup, but it can also be used for other reasons. For example, the players are in a two story tavern that gets attacked. The fighter holds the line for a few rounds then withdraws to the stairs for a height advantage. Give incentive for players to disengage and move around.

Set the battle near a hillside and inform the martial characters that the baddies they have trouble hitting would be easier if the players had high ground advantage. Set up some walls and inform everyone they'll get partial cover or full cover from ranged attacks there. Have a trap set up that the players have already encountered and inform them that maybe the baddies will trigger the trap for them. Throw in a chandelier on the ceiling with rope obviously attached to a near pillar and the fighter might rush to drop the chandelier

Also if players and enemies frequently take 5 foot steps during combat, that can add some ebb and flow to the combat naturally as well. 5 feet in 6 seconds isn't slow when you're slashing and defending against slashings.

[Flickerdart]

If you want long cinematic fights, you'll have to counter the high level rocket tag game. You can do that by giving people high DR, AC, SR/saves (spells are the fastest killers) and health. If you really want the movement to be super-functional, maybe a retreat action adds +1 AC, +1/- DR and +1 temporary hp per level, as a counter to the sneak, skirmish and focus damage. More reasonably, pick either one, the defensive retreat or the damage-boosting one.
The problem with this is that high-level turns also take a long time in real life, so making characters' actions have less impact means that fights might now take entire sessions rather than an hour tops.

If you want drawn-out combat, you'll need to atomize turns better. Spreading out a character's actions throughout a round could work - you roll 3-4 initiatives, get 10ft of movement speed per each, and can only make 1 attack in each, spells take multiple mini-turns to cast, etc. But you'd need to do a lot of work balancing the game's abilities around this.

[OldTrees1]

Most cinematic combat I have seen(ex: The fight on the cliff in Princess Bride) has disengaging to get out of a grapple or to move to a new terrain feature.

Use the Withdraw action to disengage across a terrain hazard and then utilize that hazard when they close to engage. We can see an ever so slight advantage to disengage.
Disengage: No attack from either side
Close to engage: AoO + Terrain Hazard vs Charge

[ExLibrisMortis]

The problem with this is that high-level turns also take a long time in real life, so making characters' actions have less impact means that fights might now take entire sessions rather than an hour tops.
I agree, it is a problem, and it'd get worse by adding more DR etc..

If your game has three-round combats (4 players, 12 turns), that's officially 18 seconds. That's too fast to really 'disengage' properly, and a withdraw would be up to a third of your total actions, depending on out-of turn abilities.

If those three rounds take two hours to resolve, you'll never have cinematic long fights, because if you withdraw, you're spending 40 minutes not attacking. And that is not fun. And you don't want to turn that 3-round fight into a 6-round fight, so your rogue tanks that hit to make the fight end faster. You don't withdraw to SA, you get some fancy Hide in Plain Sight or invisibility or whatever. It's too time-consuming otherwise.

If your players are going to move and use the environment, there will be additional rolls: tumble, balance, and jump, and also d% for cover etcetera. Those need to be smooth, you need to be on top of things, make it easy to grab an advantage, not in character, but at the table. Grod's Law is somewhat relevant here. You don't want out-of-character inconvenience to be relevant to in-character actions. So I would say that a prerequisite to having long fights is fast action-resolving.

[Flickerdart]

So I would say that a prerequisite to having long fights is fast action-resolving. If your players are going to move and use the environment, there will be additional rolls: tumble, balance, and jump, and also d% for cover etcetera. Those need to be smooth, you need to be on top of things, make it easy to grab an advantage, not in character, but at the table. Grod's Law is somewhat relevant here.
This is why most games abstract this kind of stuff - when you want things to roll smoothly, you basically need one roll to cover tumbling under a table, jumping up on the bar, running along the bar, jumping from the bar to the chandelier, and then maybe a second roll for piloting that chandelier into the guardsman's head.

[Galen]

I think the OP is looking for incentives to move in combat. The OP wants a combat system where cinematic combat involving a lot of disengaging and re-engaging is normal and a reasonably optimal way to fight.
Here's one: a level 5 Fighter is facing anything that has 3 attacks - let's say, any monster with claw/claw/byte

Static fight:
- Fighter makes 1 attack
- Monster makes 3 attacks
Repeat. For each 1 attack of the Fighter, the monster gets 3.

Dynamic fight:
- Fighter makes attack, moves away
- Monster makes AoO
- Monster moves up to the fighter, makes 1 attack
Repeat. For each 1 attack of the Fighter, the monster gets 2. We have just lowered the monster's efficiency by 50% simply by moving.

Basically, any monster that can make a lot of attacks per round gives the PCs valuable incentive to move (even at the cost of taking AoOs!), because taking a full-attack from the monster is even worse.

[Zweisteine]

Well, if you want a cinematically long duel, you'll need a lot of rounds. You'll find that in twenty rounds, you can cover a good distance with a "full attack, 5-foot step" routine. Maybe not as much as in a movie, but still a respectable distance.

Tumble is the most obvious solution.

There are a few isolated features that expand your five-foot step (such as one White Raven stance).

And you can always just provoke. I mean, if you think about cinematic duels, there's often a lot of overly fancy footwork and acrobatics going on. So when they dance around each other, they're only really taking lots of 5-foot steps and tumbles.
Even so, you'll notice that the people who move around (except forward, of course) are focusing on defense. I imagine they are using Total Defense, and already have considerable dodging and/or parrying abilities.

Also, if you want more cinematic duels, you could try implementing 5e's AoO rules. You only provoke when leaving the threatened area, but can move with impunity within a creature's reach. The downside to this is that it makes flanking much, much easier. You might want to eliminate that bonus (except for sneak attack purposes) if you use this AoO rule.

[Thewaitingman]

Thanks a lot for you replies!


Not sure what you're hoping for here. A way to immediately disengage from combat that takes no action that your opponent can't counter? That's... a tall order. You can get immediate actions to teleport away, if that helps.

I mainly wanted to see reactions and how other dms handle simliar circumstances. The options are basically only 2: either find a way within the RAW to satisfy your needs or make the necessary tweaks that will give the desired result. I'll elaborate in the quotes bellow.


Secondly spending valuable actions by staying in a fight you know you will probably lose isn't the best way to spend them.

Indeed the tumble option is a good one if the enemy is able to use it. As you have understood I was focusing more on the stationary nature of a melee fight in RAW. Without the DM's embelishment, a duel often assumes the look of two units in an old RTS game where they hit each other with the same animation until one's healthbar goes to zero. It is exactly this point I find peculiar because, unless you find the combat details (rolls, ACs, hits) especially engrossing, a stationary battle like this would never be a memorable event. This often makes an uninventive DM like myself introduce an amazingly complex monster instead (or a number of melee fighters to build up the excitement).


Three words: Tome of Battle.

I know exactly what you mean because my old DM (and now player) did the same thing against are equally overpowerd players. This is indeed a very good option to make duel memorable but it means giving up on the RAW (since ToB doesn'y really fit in in the whole 3.5 picture :smallbiggrin:). Not that I have a problem with that and will probably use it :smallwink:


Most cinematic combat I have seen(ex: The fight on the cliff in Princess Bride) has disengaging to get out of a grapple or to move to a new terrain feature.

Yes, this is what I meant by falling columns etc. Although this is a clear intervention of the DM and the players should get tired of it if used regularly. I must say with a combination so far I should be able to make 3 or 4 of the up-until-now avoided duel encounters. :smallsmile:


Set the battle near a hillside and inform the martial characters that the baddies they have trouble hitting would be easier if the players had high ground advantage. Set up some walls and inform everyone they'll get partial cover or full cover from ranged attacks there. Have a trap set up that the players have already encountered and inform them that maybe the baddies will trigger the trap for them. Throw in a chandelier on the ceiling with rope obviously attached to a near pillar and the fighter might rush to drop the chandelier


This is just very good DM planning *copying furiously and naming the ideas my own*


I notice many things that make it hard to understand your idea. I could argue that they move quite fast while fighthing, that, in movies, disengaging is often done with tumble, and often provokes an attack of opportunity anyway.

Do you have examples precisely (Like, you could run a battle, and tell us '' There ! I would like to do that '' ) or just this general feel ?

Okay this is the second choice I mentioned above, the tweaking and possible homebrewing. Let's consider this the dark alley of this thread since the above suggestions which stay within the boundaries of RAW could produce a large amount of satisfying encounters. I can't help but imagine possible changes in things that have always annoyed me.
- The bull rush option is useless unless you really have to move someone from somewhere. Maybe an easier moving condition and damage if the enemy hits a wall?
- Introducing a fencing AC? It always struck me as odd that you had the same AC with your weapon drawn and you weapon sheathed.. This could be a deflection bonus depending on the weapon used?
- I was playing with the idea inspired by the lord of the rings tabletop strategy game where the loser of the fight had to move back an inch or be considered trapped (something like flanked). I tried implementing the idea by forcing someone to move a free 5 feet or be considered flanked. But this conflicted with almost everything. The injured one could simply run, cast a spell, attack with a ranged weapon etc. Consequitive moved you further back for an amusing effect. Though actors did eventually move around, the bad outweighed the good heavily

[Flickerdart]

We have just lowered the monster's efficiency by 50% simply by moving.
Not quite. A monster with multiple attacks typically has one primary attack and some secondary ones, which have a hefty penalty to hit and damage. Other monsters do full attacks on a charge.

[Galen]

Not quite. A monster with multiple attacks typically has one primary attack and some secondary ones, which have a hefty penalty to hit and damage. Other monsters do full attacks on a charge.Clearly, I did not intend to account for every monster in the MM. It was just one example to demonstrate constant movement could be advantageous even when eating up AoOs.

[Ravens_cry]

I had the impression the OP had filed that under "wastes valuable actions and turns".

Well, too bloody bad. Disengaging from an enemy that wants to hurt you without getting hurt should take effort.

[Troacctid]

I think it is a good thing that melee characters have some degree of stickiness to them. It wouldn't be fair if you could stroll right past the front line and start hitting the squishies with absolutely no consequences.

[Andezzar]

There is the Withdraw action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw). It's a full round action and, especially against opponents with reach, it tends to be of less use, but it gets you out of Dodge.Unfortunately it does not unless your speed is greater than your opponent's. Withdrawal allows a double move. Charging allows a double move....
Your only hope is to get an obstacle between you and your opponent.

[DeltaEmil]

Unfortunately it does not unless your speed is greater than your opponent's. Withdrawal allows a double move. Charging allows a double move....
Your only hope is to get an obstacle between you and your opponent.And even then, the opponent could simply use two move actions to move into position again.

Withdrawal is only good if you have allies helping you to cover your retreat, or you're in some kind of terrain that will slow down the opponent but not you. Which is why having a quick escape horse is very important, as is being able to cross a bridge and cut the ropes to get away, if you lack magical means of escaping.

[prufock]

Indeed the tumble option is a good one if the enemy is able to use it. As you have understood I was focusing more on the stationary nature of a melee fight in RAW. Without the DM's embelishment, a duel often assumes the look of two units in an old RTS game where they hit each other with the same animation until one's healthbar goes to zero. It is exactly this point I find peculiar because, unless you find the combat details (rolls, ACs, hits) especially engrossing, a stationary battle like this would never be a memorable event. This often makes an uninventive DM like myself introduce an amazingly complex monster instead (or a number of melee fighters to build up the excitement).
Movement and use of the terrain isn't just up to the DM, it's also up to the players. If the DM introduces terrain features, it's still on the players to use them.

For example, let's look at a bar brawl. There are plenty of terrain features in a bar that PCs can use. Pick up a bottle to throw, duck under a table, swing a pool cue, move behind the bar for cover, stand on a chair for high ground, etc. Each of these takes an action, but why wouldn't it?

As a second example, let's look at the Princess Bride duel. They face off, each is probably fighting defensively at this point (or using Combat Expertise if they have it), taking some tentative swings at each other. They parry back and forth for a round or two (attack, miss, attack, miss) probably still defensively. Roberts takes a 5' step back each round, moving to high ground on the second round. Another round of parrying, he takes a move to drop down to the ground. Inigo takes his move to flip over him (jump check). More parrying and moving, Inigo switches hands. More parrying and moving, up stairs this time, at the end of which Inigo attempts what could be a disarm check. Roberts switches hands. Roberts succeeds on a disarm check. Inigo moves, swinging on the pole, and spends his actions picking up his sword. Roberts tosses his, also swings, and lands to pick up his sword. More parrying, another disarm, etc, as they exchange high ground, until finally Roberts hits and successfully disarms Inigo.

It's extremely cinematic, and entirely possible within the D&D ruleset. The DM sets the terrain, it's up to the players to use it. All it takes is a little creativity and imagination.

[Riculf]

Withdraw works rather well with the spell "Longstrider". It's only 1st level with a relatively long dwell time (1hr/level) and seems rather overlooked in the games I've seen but that extra 10' of movement makes it rather difficult for many standard characters to re-engage easily. That, to me, makes a good "nah-nah-nh-nah-nah" move :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Well, too bloody bad. Disengaging from an enemy that wants to hurt you without getting hurt should take effort.

There's effort and then there's it's basically impossible without outside intervention or having had the capacity to keep them from closing in the first place.

[OldTrees1]

Withdraw works rather well with the spell "Longstrider". It's only 1st level with a relatively long dwell time (1hr/level) and seems rather overlooked in the games I've seen but that extra 10' of movement makes it rather difficult for many standard characters to re-engage easily. That, to me, makes a good "nah-nah-nh-nah-nah" move :smallbiggrin:

Um, re-engaging has a default speed of twice that of disengaging. So either you need a +35' bonus or you need to prevent charging. Preventing charging is more difficult since the Rules Compendium pointed out Jump and Tumble are allowed as part of a charge.

However if you are in a field of pillars(say a forest) then preventing a charge is easy and Longstrider becomes quite useful again(attack, tumble away, they move, tumble in, attack, they attack, repeat).

[Sliver]

Withdraw allows for a double move, the same as charging does. If you are faster than your opponent, then withdrawing will allow you to retreat without getting attacked.

[Bucky]

Unfortunately it does not unless your speed is greater than your opponent's. Withdrawal allows a double move. Charging allows a double move....
Your only hope is to get an obstacle between you and your opponent.

Even if there is a handy obstacle, if both creatures move at the same speed, the defender withdraws and the attacker double moves.

So how can a character make space against an equally fast pursuer? Skills. Jump over a chasm and block the obvious landing zone, or hurdle obstacles and hope they can't. Use accelerated climbing or fast swimming. Duck out of sight, Move Silently and Hide.

Finally, there's always the classic trip disengage for the desperate. Ready an action to trip and 5' step at the end of their turn. Then Run.

[Troacctid]

If the fight turns into a chase, you should quit using the fight rules and use the chase rules instead. I think they're in DMG2?

[DeltaEmil]

If the fight turns into a chase, you should quit using the fight rules and use the chase rules instead. I think they're in DMG2?They're in the DMG 1 on page 20 (or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#evasionAndPursuit)on the d20srd).

[OldTrees1]

Withdraw allows for a double move, the same as charging does. If you are faster than your opponent, then withdrawing will allow you to retreat without getting attacked.

It does? Thanks for the correction.

[Coidzor]

Withdraw allows for a double move, the same as charging does. If you are faster than your opponent, then withdrawing will allow you to retreat without getting attacked.

So it does, I'd been misremembering it for a while, then, thank you.

Still... How often is a non-Monk going to be able to say that, though, unless someone makes it a habit of picking on Halflings and Gnomes, most things are as fast or faster than the PCs, typically, which is one of the reasons why the game is stacked against retreating even when that's what the party is supposed to do.

[Sliver]

If they're faster, you're screwed. Slower? Easy win. Equal? You could use the rules of pursuit that were linked, perhaps adding potential skill checks (or other options) to add some flavor.


When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

[lsfreak]

Allow 10-foot steps for anyone engaging in melee combat. Make full attacks standard actions. Add move-action abilities that offer (meaningful) healing or increased defenses, and expand standard-action abilities that boost damage on later rounds from spells and a handful of rather esoteric sources (Stormguard Warrior is the only one off the top of my head) to something available to run-of-the-mill characters. Remove all AoO associated with combat maneuvers (bull rush/disarm/trip), and for that matter, remove unarmed strike's ridiculous "no one's trained, AoO if untrained." Expand a few of those and other options to make them useful enough to use circumstantially rather than needing support to keep them from being wasted actions (feint and demoralize as move actions, overrun as... something useful enough people even remember it exists).

Chasing is a different matter, as the rules don't really support it well. If you're going to include those, I'd make up rulings for "combat" that, instead of using actions for making attack rolls versus static defense, is things like using up some of your total movement (not the base speed) to make obstacles for your chaser to overcome. See something that can be flung into the path, spend 10 feet of movement and make a Dex check, opponent must make an opposed check of DC+5 to go through unhindered, DC+0 to also lose 10 feet of movement, and DC-5 to lose 20 feet of movement. Spend 10 feet of movement to shout something demoralizing to try and give the chasee a -4 to any checks for the next turn, or something taunting to give the chaser -4. Successive Con checks to allow you to set your speed equal to the chaser/chasee for the round.

[Coidzor]

If they're faster, you're screwed. Slower? Easy win. Equal? You could use the rules of pursuit that were linked, perhaps adding potential skill checks (or other options) to add some flavor.

No, you don't. That's for if there's some kind of lead. In combat, withdrawing from someone who can then charge you just means that you get charged on their turn.

If they can't charge you, then you might have cause to use pursuit rules.

[Eloel]

No, you don't. That's for if there's some kind of lead. In combat, withdrawing from someone who can then charge you just means that you get charged on their turn.

If they can't charge you, then you might have cause to use pursuit rules.

Only if you're in very very open field. You can put a LOT of things between yourself and your attacker, they can't charge if it's not a straight line from them to you, and even things like rough terrain can put a damper into that.

[Coidzor]

Only if you're in very very open field. You can put a LOT of things between yourself and your attacker, they can't charge if it's not a straight line from them to you, and even things like rough terrain can put a damper into that.

If that's the case then you still don't need the pursuit rules in a tactical combat, only if someone manages to successfully retreat from combat entirely.

[Eloel]

If that's the case then you still don't need the pursuit rules in a tactical combat, only if someone manages to successfully retreat from combat entirely.

I was not contesting your point but merely adding to it. I'd still call for a Dexterity check if it's a stalemate and one combatant can run around a tree every single round without getting charged.

[OldTrees1]

Only if you're in very very open field. You can put a LOT of things between yourself and your attacker, they can't charge if it's not a straight line from them to you, and even things like rough terrain can put a damper into that.

Pits and rough terrain are skill checks for a charger[Rules Compendium]. Hard obstructions(pillars, trees, walls) do work.

[Riculf]

... which is why I mentioned Longstrider. The extra 10' of movement will add to your withdraw AND charge (if in open ground or using skill tricks like Twisted Charge). If you have more movement then they can rarely get into a position of charging unless you let them :smallbiggrin:

Couple this with feats that can ignore terrain modifiers as well and you're "in like Flynn". The increased land movement speed of Longstrider will also give a +4 on jump checks to help with those fallen logs/pits.

Expeditious Retreat really ups the ante giving you +30' of movement to your base speed so you really can dance all over the battlefield, if that's your thing (+12 on Jump too). Pity it doesn't stack with Longtrider :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

I know exactly what you mean because my old DM (and now player) did the same thing against are equally overpowerd players. This is indeed a very good option to make duel memorable but it means giving up on the RAW (since ToB doesn'y really fit in in the whole 3.5 picture ). Not that I have a problem with that and will probably use it My underline. What, exactly, does the underlined section mean? ToB is explicitly 3.5 material, and following its rules is explicitly following the RAW (Rules As Written).