Choosing a ToB class for Warforged

[Jarmen4u]

Hey all, I'm starting a PF game with some friends, and I want to play a Warforged, possibly a swordsage. My friend pointed out some flaws in that choice, and that I should consider a Warblade instead.

Is there any particular reason why a swordsage wouldn't work for Warforged, and if so, which of the ToB classes would I be best suited for?

[Doc_Maynot]

While i know it is not wholly relevant, you are asking about ToB with a Pathfidner tag so I have to ask. Have you considered one of the classes in Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)?

[Greenish]

Is there any particular reason why a swordsage wouldn't work for WarforgedOnly thing I can think of is the Wis penalty, and even that is rather minor.

Warforged work well with any ToB class.

[Vhaidara]

I second the recommendation for Path of War. It is much better written than Tome of Battle.

As far as classes...
Swordsage: No real synergy between the two, and the Wis penalty hurts a bit
Warblade: No real synergy or asynergy. Btu warforged Warblade has a nice ring.
Crusader: Fantastic synergy. Take Adamantine Body and you can double dip the damage reduction, because of the following scenario
You get hit for 10 damage. 2 points are knocked off by DR, 5 goes into your Steely Resolve pool, and 3 get dealt to you. Next turn, the 5 in your Steely Resolve pool are dealt to you, and get reduced by your DR to 3.

Now, for Path of War...
Stalker: The swordsage update. Again, Wis penalty hurts, but not the end of the world. A lot more sneakiness and skill based combat
Warder: My recommendation, the PoW tank class. You create a giant area of threat and shut down any attempt to do anything in that area. Best of all, you run off of Int, which you don't take a penalty to. And a warforged general is probably the best initiator image
Warlord: Cha penalty actually hurts a lot on Warlords, and I generally don't think of warforged as daredevils.

[Jarmen4u]

While i know it is not wholly relevant, you are asking about ToB with a Pathfidner tag so I have to ask. Have you considered one of the classes in Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)?


I second the recommendation for Path of War. It is much better written than Tome of Battle.

As far as classes...
Swordsage: No real synergy between the two, and the Wis penalty hurts a bit
Warblade: No real synergy or asynergy. Btu warforged Warblade has a nice ring.
Crusader: Fantastic synergy. Take Adamantine Body and you can double dip the damage reduction, because of the following scenario
You get hit for 10 damage. 2 points are knocked off by DR, 5 goes into your Steely Resolve pool, and 3 get dealt to you. Next turn, the 5 in your Steely Resolve pool are dealt to you, and get reduced by your DR to 3.

Now, for Path of War...
Stalker: The swordsage update. Again, Wis penalty hurts, but not the end of the world. A lot more sneakiness and skill based combat
Warder: My recommendation, the PoW tank class. You create a giant area of threat and shut down any attempt to do anything in that area. Best of all, you run off of Int, which you don't take a penalty to. And a warforged general is probably the best initiator image
Warlord: Cha penalty actually hurts a lot on Warlords, and I generally don't think of warforged as daredevils.

I appreciate both of these posts, as I am still fairly new to PF and was just going to use the adapted versions of the classes. I see that the Stalker is a swordsage update; is there a specific archetype to take in order to fill the niche I was hoping to go for?
I was planning on going mostly Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind and play it like a pseudo-rogue, with a few other maneuvers for utility or defense. How should I go about this?

EDIT: Sorry, also, does the Stalker retain the Wis to AC bonus that the original swordsage had? If not, how do they compensate for being generally easy targets?

[Vhaidara]

Stalker with a focus on Steel Serpent and Veiled Moon, I would say.

Steel Serpent is about debilitating your opponents and making surprise attacks. Veiled Moon lets you dodge in and out of the Astral/Ethereal Planes for surprise attacks.

You should also probably pick up a combat style discipline. The usual choices for Stalkers are Broken Blade (unarmed/close) or Thrashing Dragon (TWF)

An important thing worth noting is that Shadow Blade is now a feat called Deadly Agility that gives you Dex to damage with all finessable weapons.

Also, if you're interested in porting things, I recommend you check these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366427-Warforged-Template-(and-variants)) out. I designed them to allow the use of Warforged in PF. You would want the Scoutforged Human, which nets you -2 Str, +2 Dex, and a floating +2 (I recommend not putting it into Dex, that's cheesy)

EDIT: Stalkers only get the Wis to AC when recovering maneuvers. They make up for it with AC replacing counters and the ability to completely ignore Str by taking Deadly Agility.

[Jarmen4u]

Stalker with a focus on Steel Serpent and Veiled Moon, I would say.

Steel Serpent is about debilitating your opponents and making surprise attacks. Veiled Moon lets you dodge in and out of the Astral/Ethereal Planes for surprise attacks.

You should also probably pick up a combat style discipline. The usual choices for Stalkers are Broken Blade (unarmed/close) or Thrashing Dragon (TWF)

An important thing worth noting is that Shadow Blade is now a feat called Deadly Agility that gives you Dex to damage with all finessable weapons.

Also, if you're interested in porting things, I recommend you check these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366427-Warforged-Template-(and-variants)) out. I designed them to allow the use of Warforged in PF. You would want the Scoutforged Human, which nets you -2 Str, +2 Dex, and a floating +2 (I recommend not putting it into Dex, that's cheesy)

EDIT: Stalkers only get the Wis to AC when recovering maneuvers. They make up for it with AC replacing counters and the ability to completely ignore Str by taking Deadly Agility.

Alright, I'll definitely start reading into those domains. Are either of the archetypes worth picking up? I've only read into them a bit, but Soul Hunter seems kind of interesting.

[Vhaidara]

Soul Hunter has, in my opinion, a weaker recovery option (it's almost actionless, but also less reliable), but Soulburning is easier to trigger on some builds than Deadly Strike. The biggest loss on Soul Hunter is Combat Insight at level 2 (Wis to Initiative and Reflex).

Here's a guide to Stalkers (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f468j7r7cQyAoiTfUAJD-2VaeazoYCm8ThC96c_mRYQ/edit?usp=sharing) written by one of Dreamscarred Press' own: Elricaltovilla

[Shining Wrath]

I played a Warforged Warblade and had a blast, though I did dip 2 levels of Swordsage to get more maneuvers.

The plusses for Warblade: Full BAB, D12 HD, medium armor, Iron Heart school.
The plusses for Swordsage: Two good saves, lots of maneuvers and stances, 2 more skill points per level.

Both classes have nifty features; those for Warblade are INT based, Swordsage is WIS based.

Either way, take the Mithral Body feat at L1.

[Greenish]

Vigilante is probably the most roguish of stalker archetypes, what with skillmonkeying focus and trapfinding. It's not released yet, but you can find the playtest version here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing) (at the bottom).

[Jarmen4u]

Vigilante is probably the most roguish of stalker archetypes, what with skillmonkeying focus and trapfinding. It's not released yet, but you can find the playtest version here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing) (at the bottom).

Apologies, when I said roguish, I meant to say assassin-ish. As in, sneak attack (or similar) damage and lots of flanking and Dex-based damage.

[Greenish]

Apologies, when I said roguish, I meant to say assassin-ish. As in, sneak attack (or similar) damage and lots of flanking and Dex-based damage.Stalker basically covers that already.

[Vhaidara]

If you want an assassin, I recommend a Steel Serpent/Veiled Moon Stalker very highly. Mix in a few Thrashing Dragon maneuvers (Swift Claws for standard action 2 weapon swing)

[Jarmen4u]

Hi-jacking my own thread about a possible race for Stalker called "Plumekith - Aasimar (Garuda-blooded)":

Garudas are noble but impetuous birdlike celestials, and most garuda-blooded aasimars grow graceful feathers during puberty. The majority of these aasimars have shimmering wings; the wings can be of virtually any shade, ranging from metallic colors to muted hues to pure white, or rarely, glossy black. Plumekith are sometimes born with taloned fingers or toes, and occasionally amber eyes like those of an eagle.
Like their celestial ancestors, plumekith tend to take action at the spur of the moment when their abilities seem needed. Plumekith rush into the heat of battle to face off against evildoers, only stopping to ask questions afterward. Plumekith often have an extreme hatred for nagas and other snakelike creatures, a racial disdain no doubt stemming back to their garuda forebears.

This race gets +2 to Dex/Wis, but also gives a bonus to the Fly skill. I can't really tell from what I'm reading on their source page, but is this a flying race?

[Vhaidara]

No, they aren't flying. They're descended from Bird-angels.

In PF, Fly is a skill that takes the place of maneuverability from 3.5

[Jarmen4u]

No, they aren't flying. They're descended from Bird-angels.

In PF, Fly is a skill that takes the place of maneuverability from 3.5

Ah, so if I achieved the ability to fly, then the bonus to Fly would allow me to roll better Fly checks? Gotcha.

[Chronos]

Another point of synergy between Warforged and Crusaders is the endurance: You can literally keep fighting all day, round after round, minute after minute, hour after hour. Probably not too practical, given that you have a party that needs to keep up with you, but still cool.

[atemu1234]

Only thing I can think of is the Wis penalty, and even that is rather minor.

Warforged work well with any ToB class.

I don't think there's any race that works badly with a TOB class.

Your best options all make excellent use of that constitution bonus. Ht points are your ally. That charisma penalty would make you a mediocre crusader, so warblade is your best bet. Swordsages are nice, but without any special bonuses to hit die size or the like, warblade is better.

[Vhaidara]

I don't think there's any race that works badly with a TOB class.

Your best options all make excellent use of that constitution bonus. Ht points are your ally. That charisma penalty would make you a mediocre crusader, so warblade is your best bet. Swordsages are nice, but without any special bonuses to hit die size or the like, warblade is better.

You see, that's just not true. Crusader uses Cha for a bonus to Will saves and a bonus to hit on their smite. Considering the synergy I mentioned above between Steely Resolve and Adamantine Plating, Crusader really does come out stronger than Warblade (plus the Eternal Soldier aspect of no active refresh on your maneuvers)